John 8:3-11 : The Case Against Christians Supporting Capital Punishment

[Zaac]

Not in the least.

In the most. Neither you nor any other sinful man is qualified to righteously judge that somebody ELSE's life be taken because of committing a sin. It is a judgment to be rendered by God and God alone.

First, abortion is the denial of due process and capital punishment is the result of due process.

That's a bunch of hoo hoo. Man's due process is not valid in righteously following due process to determine life or death. We're all sinners. It's impossible for us to do so if you believe Scripture. It would render us all hypocrites to kill someone for breaking the same law that we ALL are guilty of breaking.

From a non-Christian perspective that sort of due process may be allowed. But from a BIBLICAL Christian perspective, no one outside of GOD HIMSELF is capable of making such a righteous decision and that's why the OT is full of HIM giving the command for His people to kill. HE had righteously passed judgment, not them.

If Christians believe Scripture, we're all guilty of breaking the same law. And if some are due death for breaking the law, then we must accept that we are also. That is CONSISTENT with why no sin can be in God's presence and why even one sin makes us worthy of death and hell.

This is why the lost world doesn't listen to the church. We want to point the finger at everyone else's faults with no consideration that ours are the same.

Just another reason why judgment will begin with the church. We are unrepentant because we refuse to acknowledge our sin as sin. I don't know too many folks who could RIGHTEOUSLY consider it loving their neighbors as themselves to approve of death for that neighbor for breaking the same law that they are guilty of breaking, while not approving of the same death for themselves.

The governing authorities' way is not God's way. Scripture says 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Phi. 2:3-5

How is it esteeming others better than ourselves when we prescribe death to them but life for ourselves when we've both broken the same law? That's selfishness. That's vainglory that's concerned about self and not others.

That IS NOT the way of Christ and is as far away from what He exampled as was the stuff the Pharisees did.

Second, through due process, taking the most valuable thing from one who has taken the most valuable thing from someone else without due process shows that which was taken through murder to be of great value. To not take the most important thing from the murder--his life--is to greatly decrease the value of the life taken, and life in general.

Again, a bunch of hoo hoo coming from CHRISTIANS. That may be the thought process of the unsaved, but it is inconsistent for folks who are supposed to know Christ to advocate such a thing.

Do you or any other Christian on here also advocate the taking of the life of every living mother who has ever aborted a child?

Now, we must be careful about how capital punishment is applied. We should make a distinction between first and second-degree murder. The Old Testament required capital punishment for first-degree murder (after an investigation according to due process, by the way). However, in a situation of second-degree murder or manslaughter, there were cities of refuge.

Furthermore, not everything the Old Testament requires capital punishment for should be enacted today. But, capital punishment is certainly the proper response to first-degree murder.

Why? Thou shalll not murder is part of the same law as thou shall not lie. You, me and every other Christian is guiltyof breaking the SAME law as Scripture says.

I endorse life for me as I'm sure you do for yourself. So why aren't you and other Christians loving your neighbor as you love yourself and advocating the same thing for them that Jesus has given you?

Why would folks who have been forgiven advocate the death of anyone who has broken the same law that they have been forgiven of breaking?

 

[righteousdude2]

Sorry Charlie .....

3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” John 8:3-11

.... for you folks that are tooooooo young to remember the old Starkist Tuna commercials, their motto was they only served the best in tuna. They used this cartoon tuna, named Charlie, who spent each commercial trying to be caught, with a note coming back down on the end of the fish hook, "Sorry Charlie!"

Well, sorry, Zaac .... once again you have stretched the teaching or meaning of scripture to fit into your universe of understanding!

I think we have every right, and a moral responsibility, to punish those who murder others, and be it lock them up and toss the keys into a black hole; Alternatively, kill them back! That is a choice that mankind has, and I have no problem with either.

The problem with a black hole key sentence is that person costs the taxpayer close to one-hundred thousand dollars a year, and what will that price tag be in 30, or 40 years?

So, I go back to the scripture that says, take the life of another and you give your life in return! And as for humane executions, most of these killers get better treatment at death than they ever gave the victim!

You may be right ... but isn't that up to God to point out? Not someone who does a lot of fly casting with bait ... in order to pass off a passive religion that has come about by a tremendous amount of mental/spiritual gymnastics to arrive at? Who knows. You may actually be spot on when it comes to God, and if that is tre, you will be weighed down with crowns, while the rest of us spend a while explaining ourelves before we get into eternity! Then again, it may be you who has some 'splainin' to do? :smilewinkgrin:

Sorry Zaac. They deserve whatever the legal system deems appropriate. Shalom! :type:

 

[Zaac]

.... for you folks that are tooooooo young to remember the old Starkist Tuna commercials, their motto was they only served the best in tuna. They used this cartoon tuna, named Charlie, who spent each commercial trying to be caught, with a note coming back down on the end of the fish hook, "Sorry Charlie!"

Well, sorry, Zaac .... once again you have stretched the teaching or meaning of scripture to fit into your universe of understanding!

I think we have every right, and a moral responsibility, to punish those who murder others, and be it lock them up and toss the keys into a black hole; Alternatively, kill them back! That is a choice that mankind has, and I have no problem with either.

There you go again acting as though someone asked you what you thought as opposed to what Scripture says.

You think we have every right to. Scripture shows we do not. So continue to sinfully want for others' sin what you don't want for your own.

The problem with a black hole key sentence is that person costs the taxpayer close to one-hundred thousand dollars a year, and what will that price tag be in 30, or 40 years?

Yes , place a price tag on what is too much for someone else's life. How much is yours worth?

So, I go back to the scripture that says, take the life of another and you give your life in return! And as for humane executions, most of these killers get better treatment at death than they ever gave the victim!

Yes, that's right up there with loving your enemy as yourself. That's right up there with forgiving seventy times seven. That's right up there with turning the other cheek..

Shall God deal as sternly with those in the church and their unrighteous, unmerciful judgment as they think they have the okay to deal with others who have broken the same law.

You may be right ... but isn't that up to God to point out?

He did point it out. You remember that Cross where He gave you mercy when you should have gotten death? Everything about the Gospel of Jesus Christ DEMANDS that the Christian default to life and mercy. But as you judge with no mercy, so shall your breaking of the same law be treqated.

There is something extremely wicked and anti-Christ about any Christian who has been shown the mercy of the Cross thinking that someone else should receive death for breaking the same law we have broken. Where in that is the loving of neighbor as self?

We like to talk about the homosexual flaunting their sin, but we boldly flaunt ours while constantly looking to defend it.

Not someone who does a lot of fly casting with bait ... in order to pass off a passive religion that has come about by a tremendous amount of mental/spiritual gymnastics to arrive at? Who knows. You may actually be spot on when it comes to God, and if that is tre, you will be weighed down with crowns, while the rest of us spend a while explaining ourelves before we get into eternity! Then again, it may be you who has some 'splainin' to do? :smilewinkgrin:

Naah. This is right up there with so many in the church unrepentantly supporting for President a man who rejects Jesus Christ. Our view is the same as the world's when it comes to politics. And it's obviously just like the world's when it comes to capital punishment. The modern church has become a mean , nasty place in which its inhabitants have the same lack of love that is exhibited by the world. And as the love of many grows cold, wickedness increases.


But then we sit and unrighteously judge the lost when apparently everything about those in the church has become the same as it is with the lost.

Where is the church that is so unlike this lost world that they look at as like we're crazy because like Christ, our default is love, grace and mercy?

How do the people who have been forgiven not understand why the default of the Christian HAS to be life and mercy? It's like spitting on the Cross.

Sorry Zaac. They deserve whatever the legal system deems appropriate. Shalom! :type:

I'm not talking about the legal system. As I've said. the governing authorities can do what they want just as they do with divorce. But the default of the Christian MUST be the grace, mercy and forgiveness of Christ that gives life over death.

 

[righteousdude2]

At least .....

There you go again acting as though someone asked you what you thought as opposed to what Scripture says.

.... you are consistent! It is a shame that you have set yourself up as the moral voice for all of us on the board! You are almost always at odds with the consensus here, but you push onward, casting your wide net of judgment on everyone around you!

Like I've said before, you must be the most PERFECT, PIOUS person ever born? I can't believe how the world, or the church got by on its own for thousands of years, without you and your sense of understanding, when it comes to the Bible!

I am always entertained with your answers. Nevertheless, lately, I've had to go to my screen controls and turn down the brightness, to dim the holier-than-though glare coming off my screen from the response of us little peons. :thumbs:

I am blessed to know that at judgement, it will be a righteous God looking over my life, and not you, as I fear if you are seated on the throne, you know the one you think you are sitting on when you write us malcontents and sinners, I'd not be getting eternal life or the crowns from running a good race! :smilewinkgrin:

God bless you Zaac. BTW - I am so glad to know that God isn't as serious about our walk, as you are? :saint:

​

 

[Zaac]

.... you are consistent! It is a shame that you have set yourself up as the moral voice for all of us on the board! You are almost always at odds with the consensus here, but you push onward, casting your wide net of judgment on everyone around you!

And it's a shame that just like the people of Israel that so many of you think that just because the majority of you feel the same way that you're morally correct when everything of Scripture shows your actions to be in direct opposition to who Christ says HIS people are supposed to be.

The consensus? Typical of unrighteous judgment to think that a show of hands and consensus makes something right. Perhaps that explains why you poll everything.

Like I've said before, you must be the most PERFECT, PIOUS person ever born?

And like I said before, don't try to turn the table on me with this perfect, pious stuff in order to change the topic of conversation once again from the church's disobedience.

That's your fallback for everything you want to justify us doing in the church."Oh you must be the most perfect yada yada yada". That's you essentially saying "yeah we're doing it and it's probably wrong but you do stuff that's wrong too".

So it's noted that's your script for justifying wrong behavior within the church when you're involved with it.

I can't believe how the world, or the church got by on its own for thousands of years, without you and your sense of understanding, when it comes to the Bible!

Save your facetious sideways slaps and stick towhat's being talked about.

I am always entertained with your answers. Nevertheless, lately, I've had to go to my screen controls and turn down the brightness, to dim the holier-than-though glare coming off my screen from the response of us little peons. :thumbs:

Now you sound the exact way the Pharisees did when Jesus pointed out the hypocrisy of their religiosity.

I am blessed to know that at judgement, it will be a righteous God looking over my life, and not you, as I fear if you are seated on the throne, you know the one you think you are sitting on when you write us malcontents and sinners, I'd not be getting eternal life or the crowns from running a good race! :smilewinkgrin:

Who said anything about that? I'm just saying that IT'S obvious that the church is broken and it ain't broken because of what folks outside the church are doing. It's broken because the folks inside the church keep unrepentantly sinning en masse and justifying it. So NO, you'll get no crowns for that wickedness.

God bless you Zaac. BTW - I am so glad to know that God isn't as serious about our walk, as you are? :saint:

God's very serious about your walk. [snipped]

 

[Alcott]

Everything about Jesus seemed to run contrary to the governing authorities just as it does with capital punishment.

I guess you're right on that. Jesus referred to the head of state as a female fox-- let's follow his example and do the same. And the one here in the USA wanted to take all the credit for putting an international terrorist leader to death. Or was that alright because it wasn't 'capital punishment' [convicted and sentenced by due process of law], it was just a revenge murder?

It's beyond hypocritical for people in the church to pretend to be pro-life while still advocating death through capital punishment.

No murder = no death penalty comes out not pro-life?

 

[Zaac]

I guess you're right on that. Jesus referred to the head of state as a female fox-- let's follow his example and do the same. And the one here in the USA wanted to take all the credit for putting an international terrorist leader to death. Or was that alright because it wasn't 'capital punishment' [convicted and sentenced by due process of law], it was just a revenge murder?

The taking of a life is the taking of a life. None outside of God are righteously qualified to do so.

As I said, the governing authorities have given their approval for capital punishment and they can. They are of this world system and I expect them to act like it. But from a SCRIPTURAL POV and everything Christ came for, it seems to make no sense for His people who have received His forgiveness, His mercy...to advocate death for anyone due to their sin.

But instead, we scream at the top of our lungs about the heinousness of abortion while being okay with capital punishment just because the government CAN.

 

[Alcott]

Okay, it's as simple as this then: you put the life of one who has committed the worst sin against man that can be committed as equal to one who has committed no sin. I strongly, thoroughly, completely, disagree.

Yes or No: Is God's covenant with Noah and his sons still valid?

 

[kyredneck]

....This passage isn't about a condemnation of the death penalty, but a condemnation of an unjust execution of just law.

:thumbsup: ,,,,and His own trial by night and judicial murder was as illegal as it comes.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Scarlett, your analysis of the passage was great.

 

[Sapper Woody]

In the most. Neither you nor any other sinful man is qualified to righteously judge that somebody ELSE's life be taken because of committing a sin. It is a judgment to be rendered by God and God alone.

OK, I'll agree here. And God has already rendered the judgment. "Whoso sheddeth man's blood,"etc. He's not already passed the judgment, He's commanded us to carry out the sentence. To NOT advocate the death penalty is sin. And it's not mercy. It's the opposite. It's forcing a victim/family to live the rest of their lives without closure. It's forcing them to live with fear, doubt, and mistrust.

See, the neat thing about God, is that He's God. If He wishes to not follow the law He gave us by pardoning someone, He can. But we can't. I told my kids they couldn't eat on the couch. But I did. That doesn't give them license to disobey me and eat on the couch.

 

[The Archangel]

In the most. Neither you nor any other sinful man is qualified to righteously judge that somebody ELSE's life be taken because of committing a sin. It is a judgment to be rendered by God and God alone.

That the Old Testament specifies two or three witnesses are required to carry out a sentence of death stands firmly against you. The judgment is not, in this case, rendered by God alone. See: Deuteronomy 17:6 and the surrounding passage.

That's a bunch of hoo hoo. Man's due process is not valid in righteously following due process to determine life or death. We're all sinners. It's impossible for us to do so if you believe Scripture. It would render us all hypocrites to kill someone for breaking the same law that we ALL are guilty of breaking.

From a non-Christian perspective that sort of due process may be allowed. But from a BIBLICAL Christian perspective, no one outside of GOD HIMSELF is capable of making such a righteous decision and that's why the OT is full of HIM giving the command for His people to kill. HE had righteously passed judgment, not them.

Again, Deuteronomy 17:6 stands firmly against you.

If Christians believe Scripture, we're all guilty of breaking the same law. And if some are due death for breaking the law, then we must accept that we are also. That is CONSISTENT with why no sin can be in God's presence and why even one sin makes us worthy of death and hell.

You are conflating the "Law" (the law of God) and the laws that civil authorities have the right--by divine commission, I might add--to make and enforce. Look at Romans 13.

This is why the lost world doesn't listen to the church. We want to point the finger at everyone else's faults with no consideration that ours are the same.

Just another reason why judgment will begin with the church. We are unrepentant because we refuse to acknowledge our sin as sin. I don't know too many folks who could RIGHTEOUSLY consider it loving their neighbors as themselves to approve of death for that neighbor for breaking the same law that they are guilty of breaking, while not approving of the same death for themselves.

This is a conflation of the issue and a further demonstration that you don't understand the distinction of the Law of God and civil laws.

The governing authorities' way is not God's way. Scripture says 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Phi. 2:3-5

How is it esteeming others better than ourselves when we prescribe death to them but life for ourselves when we've both broken the same law? That's selfishness. That's vainglory that's concerned about self and not others.

That IS NOT the way of Christ and is as far away from what He exampled as was the stuff the Pharisees did.

Again, the hermeneutical process has broken down. Philippians 2 isn't written to the world at large. Rather it is written to believers who are living together in a local congregation (or congregations).

You're trying to make the Philippians passage say something Paul never intended it to say. Had he said this in Romans 13 in relation to civil government, you might have a point. Of course, he didn't say this there.

Again, a bunch of hoo hoo coming from CHRISTIANS. That may be the thought process of the unsaved, but it is inconsistent for folks who are supposed to know Christ to advocate such a thing.

Do you or any other Christian on here also advocate the taking of the life of every living mother who has ever aborted a child?

Why? Thou shalll not murder is part of the same law as thou shall not lie. You, me and every other Christian is guiltyof breaking the SAME law as Scripture says.

I endorse life for me as I'm sure you do for yourself. So why aren't you and other Christians loving your neighbor as you love yourself and advocating the same thing for them that Jesus has given you?

Why would folks who have been forgiven advocate the death of anyone who has broken the same law that they have been forgiven of breaking?

This further rant is easily answered by my above answers. The world is not the church and the church is not the world (although, the church may too often act like the world in mimicking its sinfulness).

You really need to understand what Paul is trying to say. But, even then, you can't seem to understand what God is saying in Deuteronomy when He gives authority to the people to carry out capital punishment.

I'm afraid all of your thoughts here on this matter are the product of some really bad eisegesis and demonstrate a total lack of hermeneutical acumen. In short, your argument does not have one biblical leg to stand on.

The Archangel

 

[Zaac]

OK, I'll agree here. And God has already rendered the judgment. "Whoso sheddeth man's blood,"etc. He's not already passed the judgment, He's commanded us to carry out the sentence.

So in other words, if you think it's right to take a life for taking a life, according to what you're quoting, your life is to be demanded because of that shed blood.

6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed; Gen. 9:6

Or am I now to pay that no mind? If the death penalty coming from unrighteous men and not from GOD telling them to ,i.e.,wipe out a people by His command is shedding human blood, according to the Scripture you mentioned, other men should take their life.

To NOT advocate the death penalty is sin.

Then advocate it for every mother currently alive who has gotten an abortion.

And it's not mercy. It's the opposite. It's forcing a victim/family to live the rest of their lives without closure.

Definitely a man centric view that has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ. Closure comes from Christ. He says to forgive. He doesn't say take the life of the person who wronged you.

It's forcing them to live with fear, doubt, and mistrust

.

Again that's a worldly view and not a Christ-centered view. You can't force someone in Christ to live in that which Christ says He has not given them a spirit of. You're talking about the way a lost world responds. That is not the way that people who know CHrist should respond.

See, the neat thing about God, is that He's God. If He wishes to not follow the law He gave us by pardoning someone, He can. But we can't. I told my kids they couldn't eat on the couch. But I did. That doesn't give them license to disobey me and eat on the couch.

That's right. Throughout the OT, the only time a life was righteously taken, GOD made the decision and had it carried out either by His people or an agent of His doing what HE commanded. And just as you said, HE can do that. He hasn't given us His authority to do so.

And to say otherwise, Christians need not ever mention the Cross and the forgiveness of Christ to anyone ever again because we set ourselves up as the ultimate hypocrites.

And if yall feel so adamantly about capital punishment, call your senators and congressmen and push them and whomever your 2016 Presidential nominee of choice is to push for the capital punishment of any woman currently alive who has chosen to abort a baby.

 

[Zaac]

That the Old Testament specifies two or three witnesses are required to carry out a sentence of death stands firmly against you. The judgment is not, in this case, rendered by God alone. See: Deuteronomy 17:6 and the surrounding passage.

Again cultural law specific to the Jews with the command coming from God.

Again, Deuteronomy 17:6 stands firmly against you.

Again OT for the Jews from God that all changed when Jesus came and went to the Cross. They aren't still doing this.

You are conflating the "Law" (the law of God) and the laws that civil authorities have the right--by divine commission, I might add--to make and enforce. Look at Romans 13.

Nope. I'm calling a spade a spade and pointing out the hypocrisy of Christians for being okay with the death penalty for someone else who has broken the same law they have. God gave us mercy on the Cross. But we want to advocate death for someone else who broke the same law.

This is a conflation of the issue and a further demonstration that you don't understand the distinction of the Law of God and civil laws.

The only thing being conflated is you trying to dance around the issue of this hypocrisy yall are demonstrating.

Again, the hermeneutical process has broken down. Philippians 2 isn't written to the world at large. Rather it is written to believers who are living together in a local congregation (or congregations).

It's SCRIPTURE. It's for the world to hear and the principles be applied.

You're trying to make the Philippians passage say something Paul never intended it to say. Had he said this in Romans 13 in relation to civil government, you might have a point. Of course, he didn't say this there.

I'm not making it say anything other than what it says. I quoted it so exactly how am I trying to make it say something else? Do you personally think it's esteeming others to be better than yourself to advocate the death penalty to them and not yourself for them breaking the same law that Scripture says you're guilty of breaking?

This further rant is easily answered by my above answers. The world is not the church and the church is not the world (although, the church may too often act like the world in mimicking its sinfulness).

That would really mean something if you and so many in the church weren't putting forth a worldly view that is so radically different from what Christ exampled.

You really need to understand what Paul is trying to say. But, even then, you can't seem to understand what God is saying in Deuteronomy when He gives authority to the people to carry out capital punishment.

I can read the words on the pages. I know wat Paul says.:laugh: As for Deuteronomy, you need to recognize as I said before that was directly from GOD to the Jews to keep them separated from the pagans. Everything changed once Jesus came onto the scene. Every bit of the Gospel examples it as well as the rest of the NT.

I'm afraid all of your thoughts here on this matter are the product of some really bad eisegesis and demonstrate a total lack of hermeneutical acumen. In short, your argument does not have one biblical leg to stand on.

I'm afraid that you and a lot of folks in the church continue in this heinous sin that you continue to try and justify, yet have the audacity to say anything about abortion.

This type of silly confusion where the church feigns to be pro-life in one instance while being pro-death in another is not of God.

 

[The Archangel]

Again cultural law specific to the Jews with the command coming from God.

Again OT for the Jews from God that all changed when Jesus came and went to the Cross. They aren't still doing this.

Now you're trying to dodge. You clearly stated: "Neither you nor any other sinful man is qualified to righteously judge that somebody ELSE's life be taken because of committing a sin. It is a judgment to be rendered by God and God alone."

Deuteronomy--no matter to whom it was written or when it was written--demonstrates your statement (quoted above in italics) to be wrong.

The Law given to Israel empowered men to carry out the death penalty without God's specific, case-by-case intervention. This is precisely why two or three witnesses were required.

You are simply wrong and your point is indefensible. Romans 13 says:

[1] Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. [2] Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4] for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. [5] Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. [6] For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. [7] Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. (Romans 13:1-7 ESV, emphasis mine)
​

Paul is telling the Roman church, among other things, that government is 1. Ordained by God and 2. Empowered to bear the sword against wrongdoers--including murderers.

You simply are not right in your thinking and are grating against the texture of all scripture.

Nope. I'm calling a spade a spade and pointing out the hypocrisy of Christians for being okay with the death penalty for someone else who has broken the same law they have. God gave us mercy on the Cross. But we want to advocate death for someone else who broke the same law.

The only thing being conflated is you trying to dance around the issue of this hypocrisy yall are demonstrating.

This would be comical if it wasn't so tragic. You are taking your conviction about the death penalty (which you are entitled to) and trying to twist scripture to make it a universal for all Christians.

Again, a poor understanding of scripture and a wanting hermeneutic.

I'm not making it say anything other than what it says. I quoted it so exactly how am I trying to make it say something else? Do you personally think it's esteeming others to be better than yourself to advocate the death penalty to them and not yourself for them breaking the same law that Scripture says you're guilty of breaking?

I can read the words on the pages. I know wat Paul says.:laugh: As for Deuteronomy, you need to recognize as I said before that was directly from GOD to the Jews to keep them separated from the pagans. Everything changed once Jesus came onto the scene. Every bit of the Gospel examples it as well as the rest of the NT.

Of course you are twisting the Philippians passage. What's Paul's point?

It's found in 2:2 "Complete my joy." That's the verb; that's the imperative. So, v. 3-5 that you quoted are Paul's prescription to make Paul happy. It's how the church at Philippi is to "honor" Paul by treating each other appropriately. The letter is written to believers. Paul is instructing believers how to treat one another and, by doing so, how to complete his joy.

You are, in fact, trying to make the passage about something that Paul never intended it to say.

You have demonstrated no acumen for hermeneutics and you are persisting in your error when you should be learning from others who clearly know more than you do.

I'm afraid that you and a lot of folks in the church continue in this heinous sin that you continue to try and justify, yet have the audacity to say anything about abortion.

This type of silly confusion where the church feigns to be pro-life in one instance while being pro-death in another is not of God.

I do not have the time to waste further key strokes on your torpidity, so I will no longer comment on your stolid understanding of things....

Suffice it to say you may choose to argue against the death penalty from a philosophical framework, but you can't do it scripturally, and you certainly can't do it using John 8:3-11. So, in one sense, you're barking up the wrong forest. Your argument and thinking on this issue is both vapid and awry. You do not have one leg upon which to stand, and you've demonstrated a hermeneutical acumen which can only be described as unwieldy and wholly insufficient to be anything more than a blind guide.

The Archangel

 

[righteousdude2]

Ho, hum!

God's very serious about your walk. [snipped]

​

 

[righteousdude2]

There you go again acting as though someone asked you what you thought as opposed to what Scripture says.

You think we have every right to. Scripture shows we do not. So continue to sinfully want for others' sin what you don't want for your own.



Yes , place a price tag on what is too much for someone else's life. How much is yours worth?



Yes, that's right up there with loving your enemy as yourself. That's right up there with forgiving seventy times seven. That's right up there with turning the other cheek..

Shall God deal as sternly with those in the church and their unrighteous, unmerciful judgment as they think they have the okay to deal with others who have broken the same law.



He did point it out. You remember that Cross where He gave you mercy when you should have gotten death? Everything about the Gospel of Jesus Christ DEMANDS that the Christian default to life and mercy. But as you judge with no mercy, so shall your breaking of the same law be treqated.

There is something extremely wicked and anti-Christ about any Christian who has been shown the mercy of the Cross thinking that someone else should receive death for breaking the same law we have broken. Where in that is the loving of neighbor as self?

We like to talk about the homosexual flaunting their sin, but we boldly flaunt ours while constantly looking to defend it.



Naah. This is right up there with so many in the church unrepentantly supporting for President a man who rejects Jesus Christ. Our view is the same as the world's when it comes to politics. And it's obviously just like the world's when it comes to capital punishment. The modern church has become a mean , nasty place in which its inhabitants have the same lack of love that is exhibited by the world. And as the love of many grows cold, wickedness increases.


But then we sit and unrighteously judge the lost when apparently everything about those in the church has become the same as it is with the lost.

Where is the church that is so unlike this lost world that they look at as like we're crazy because like Christ, our default is love, grace and mercy?

How do the people who have been forgiven not understand why the default of the Christian HAS to be life and mercy? It's like spitting on the Cross.



I'm not talking about the legal system. As I've said. the governing authorities can do what they want just as they do with divorce. But the default of the Christian MUST be the grace, mercy and forgiveness of Christ that gives life over death.

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[Zaac]

Now you're trying to dodge.

Seriously?

You clearly stated: "Neither you nor any other sinful man is qualified to righteously judge that somebody ELSE's life be taken because of committing a sin. It is a judgment to be rendered by God and God alone."

Deuteronomy--no matter to whom it was written or when it was written--demonstrates your statement (quoted above in italics) to be wrong.

Wrong again. That's GOD telling them, the JEWS, what to do to remain separate; He hasn't done that after the Jews. And as was said, the NT speaks to Him expecting us to do just the opposite.

The Law given to Israel empowered men to carry out the death penalty without God's specific, case-by-case intervention. This is precisely why two or three witnesses were required.

It was a direct command from God to the JEWS that was fulfilled with Jesus. Stop ignoring the Cross.

You are simply wrong and your point is indefensible. Romans 13 says:

[1] Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. [2] Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4] for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. [5] Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. [6] For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. [7] Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. (Romans 13:1-7 ESV, emphasis mine)
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Paul is telling the Roman church, among other things, that government is 1. Ordained by God and 2. Empowered to bear the sword against wrongdoers--including murderers.

Yet you talk about dodging. This has already been answered. That same governing authority okays abortion too. Yet you and a lot of folks in the church have a cow about that.

You simply are not right in your thinking and are grating against the texture of all scripture.

I'm grating against your politically based hypocrisy.

This would be comical if it wasn't so tragic. You are taking your conviction about the death penalty (which you are entitled to) and trying to twist scripture to make it a universal for all Christians.

The tragic thing is that the folks who are supposed to be holy and set apart and who supposedly have experienced God's saving grace actand respond just like those who haven't been forgiven.

Again, a poor understanding of scripture and a wanting hermeneutic.

You call it what you will. And I'll call yours more hypocrisy. As I said before, put your money where your mouth is and start demanding that every mother currently alive who has gotten an abortion be put to death.

Of course you are twisting the Philippians passage. What's Paul's point?

It's found in 2:2 "Complete my joy." That's the verb; that's the imperative. So, v. 3-5 that you quoted are Paul's prescription to make Paul happy. It's how the church at Philippi is to "honor" Paul by treating each other appropriately. The letter is written to believers. Paul is instructing believers how to treat one another and, by doing so, how to complete his joy.

That's you twisting. It says OTHERS or the next man so why are you trying to limit it to those like you? That's easy to do. Treat those who aren't like you as better than you. Now THERE is a test of your faith.

You are, in fact, trying to make the passage about something that Paul never intended it to say.

You just demonstrated who is trying to make Scripture say something else.

You have demonstrated no acumen for hermeneutics and you are persisting in your error when you should be learning from others who clearly know more than you do.

GOOD. I don't need acumen in hermeneutics. My God man . You sound just like those religius Pharisees who knew so much about the law but nothing of the love of Christ. But you're consistent with what's wrong in the church and why the world around us is falling apart with wickedness. Because of the increase in wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. It's present and exampled by you and so much of the church.

REMEMBER THE CROSS. Some talk a good game, but their game isn't wrapped in the shed blood on the Cross.

I do not have the time to waste further key strokes on your torpidity, so I will no longer comment on your stolid understanding of things....

Suffice it to say you may choose to argue against the death penalty from a philosophical framework, but you can't do it scripturally, and you certainly can't do it using John 8:3-11. So, in one sense, you're barking up the wrong forest. Your argument and thinking on this issue is both vapid and awry. You do not have one leg upon which to stand, and you've demonstrated a hermeneutical acumen which can only be described as unwieldy and wholly insufficient to be anything more than a blind guide.

Remember the Cross. And as I said, if you're for it, do it without hypocrisy and start demanding the death penalty for every mother currently alive who has gotten an abrtion.

Absolutely shameful that those forgiven don't default to life in these areas. Highlights the hypocrisy and that our stance on abortion is often just politics and nothing to do with the love of Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Did God gave the command to have those who commit murder to be executed for that sin before or after he gave the law?

When did he reverse the command in the New testament?

jesus never did, and paul reaffirmed it!

 

[Zaac]

Did God gave the command to have those who commit murder to be executed for that sin before or after he gave the law?

It's His word. It's always been part of the law given or not. But as I said in the other thread, if someone believes this , then start advocating the killing of mothers and doctors who carry out abortions.:thumbsup:

When did he reverse the command in the New testament?

Up on the Cross when HE chose to show you and everybody else who wanted it, mercy when we fully deserved death.

jesus never did

,

Remember the Cross!!!