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John Ankerberg and Ergun Caner

Paul33

New Member
Paul,

It is not like we hate Liberty, either. I think most of the alumni I have spoken to about this situation are cautiously optimistic that Liberty will do the right thing. We are not trying to "get Liberty" or "attack Liberty." Most of us love our school. We, though, want to be put forth a school of integrity who sends out students who are "Champions for Christ" and see this situation as an attack on the school's integrity.

Yet, these statements by Geisler and Ankerberg do concern me. Now, if at the end of this Liberty does take steps to deal with the situation and Geisler and Ankerberg acted completely independent from Liberty, I will view my current hesitation as a momentary lapse of judgment. If, on the other hand, these men spoke after talking to Liberty and this is a foreshadow of their decision, I will be highly disappointed in Liberty.

Thank you Ruiz.

I love LU and I am praying that God will be glorified through all of this.

I am disappointed in the responses of my dear brothers in Christ who think that public statements by leaders should be given a pass. Apparently Ankerberg can speak out, but we little foot soldiers must shut our mouths.

Ok, guys, you have won me over. I agree with John Ankerberg. Caner's testimony is completely true and anyone who says otherwise is unchristian and unbiblical.
 

Rhetorician

Administrator
Administrator
Paul33 Response #2

My dear Rhet,

Let me see if I understand you correctly. Since Caner is John's friend, it is ok for John to lie (saying Caner's testimony is completely true) in defending his friend. Is that what you are saying?

As to the foxhole argument. Are you saying, see no evil, hear no evil?

So it is acceptable for Ankerberg to defend his friend, but not acceptable to raise a question about Ankerberg's defense. Is that what you are saying?

That is all.

Paul,

Thank you for your thoughtful and timely response.

All I am simply saying is that rumor, innuendo, personal opinion, et al that are "cussed" and discussed here in the open forum by all of us is not fruitful, is it? or even Christian?

I think we should wait until the Liberty panel investigation is done before we "cast any stones!!!" Lord knows, if our closets were opened for all to see, and the "purposes and intents of our hearts" were on display and parade; we would want some grace. And I am not sure that we are extending enough grace to Caner and Liberty and the brother with the TV program.

That is all I am saying.

And by-the-by, to call someone a "liar" in an open forum such as this says much about the Christian character of that brother, does it not?

"That is all!" :praying:
 

Rhetorician

Administrator
Administrator
Preaching Jesus Response

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that it doesn't matter. There is a process ongoing and there will is a resolution forthcoming.

What you're doing at this point is gossiping and backbiting. You're not letting it go.

This doesn't matter as much as other things right now. You need to let it go. Its not that important.

Listen, I'm an alumnus of Liberty and have deep roots with the school still. As I have mentioned elsewhere here I am absolutely outraged about this (specifically that Dr. Caner has said to use Arabic but has been shown that he isn't speaking intelligible Arabic) and am praying for peaceful resolution.

That said you're prattling on with these threads is showing your immaturity and inability to trust spiritual leadership in place to handle this situation. You need to stop this foolishness.

I agree!!

"That is all!" :praying:
 

Paul33

New Member
Paul,

Thank you for your thoughtful and timely response.

All I am simply saying is that rumor, innuendo, personal opinion, et al that are "cussed" and discussed here in the open forum by all of us is not fruitful, is it? or even Christian?

I think we should wait until the Liberty panel investigation is done before we "cast any stones!!!" Lord knows, if our closets were opened for all to see, and the "purposes and intents of our hearts" were on display and parade; we would want some grace. And I am not sure that we are extending enough grace to Caner and Liberty and the brother with the TV program.

That is all I am saying.

And by-the-by, to call someone a "liar" in an open forum such as this says much about the Christian character of that brother, does it not?

"That is all!" :praying:

Thank you Rhet, I think. But can you point out where rumor, innuendo, and personal opinion are being discussed? As to the questions I asked you, you didn't really answer any of them, so I still don't know if it is ok to lie in order to defend a friend. Please enlighten me.

What is being discussed are public statements by public leaders.

I recall a time when Jesus told the religious leaders of his day that they were of their father the devil. Something to do with lying and not holding to the truth. You might want to look it up. It is found in John 8:42-59. Well, the Jews immediately called him names. They said he was demon-possesed. Right about here, I imagine, some well meaning follower of Jesus told him he should not call religious leaders liars. It gets you into all kinds of trouble.

What do you think?
 
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Paul33

New Member
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to post "You're not Jesus." Not long!

Well, here is another example of calling out a brother or sister for lying. Remember Peter's confrontation with Ananias and Sapphira. They lied about their gift to the apostles. The next thing you know, they dropped dead.

I am so relieved to know that lying is no big deal anymore. Whether it is the lies I tell, or the lies my friends tell in defending me. Whew!
 

John Toppass

Active Member
Site Supporter
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to post "You're not Jesus." Not long!

Well, here is another example of calling out a brother or sister for lying. Remember Peter's confrontation with Ananias and Sapphira. They lied about their gift to the apostles. The next thing you know, they dropped dead.

I am so relieved to know that lying is no big deal anymore. Whether it is the lies I tell, or the lies my friends tell in defending me. Whew!

Why do you need to be reminded?
 

Rhetorician

Administrator
Administrator
Paul 33 Reponse #3

Thank you Rhet, I think. But can you point out where rumor, innuendo, and personal opinion are being discussed? As to the questions I asked you, you didn't really answer any of them, so I still don't know if it is ok to lie in order to defend a friend. Please enlighten me.

What is being discussed are public statements by public leaders.

I recall a time when Jesus told the religious leaders of his day that they were of their father the devil. Something to do with lying and not holding to the truth. You might want to look it up. It is found in John 8:42-59. Well, the Jews immediately called him names. They said he was demon-possesed. Right about here, I imagine, some well meaning follower of Jesus told him he should not call religious leaders liars. It gets you into all kinds of trouble.

What do you think?

Paul,

Thank you for asking me what I think? You know deep down what I think.

I think it is unreasonable to argue with someone who is unreasonable! If you see no problems with maligning a brother who needs help, support, and prayers; then there is nothing I have to tell you that could possible persuade you. The brother is guilty, and anyone who defends him is guilty, in your mind.

I am reminded of an old western movie I once saw. They were going to give the accused murderer a fair trial before they took him out and hung him.

That is what I think! :thumbsup:

"That is all!"
 
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Grasshopper

Active Member
Site Supporter
Paul,


All I am simply saying is that rumor, innuendo, personal opinion, et al that are "cussed" and discussed here in the open forum by all of us is not fruitful, is it? or even Christian?

It's not rumor when you can verify with his own words.

I think we should wait until the Liberty panel investigation is done before we "cast any stones!!!"

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3960

On the DL today I raised a simple question: where is the church in the Ergun Caner Scandal? Why is it that Liberty University is being seen as the final authority in determining "the truth"?


Lord knows, if our closets were opened for all to see, and the "purposes and intents of our hearts" were on display and parade; we would want some grace. And I am not sure that we are extending enough grace to Caner and Liberty and the brother with the TV program.

That is all I am saying.

Why extend grace to someone who has yet to acknowledge any wrong doing, nor has he asked for any.


And by-the-by, to call someone a "liar" in an open forum such as this says much about the Christian character of that brother, does it not?

Not if it was true. Was it wrong to call Jimmy Swaggart an adulterer?
 

Paul33

New Member
Paul,

Thank you for asking me what I think? You know deep down what I think.

I think it is unreasonable to argue with someone who is unreasonable! If you see no problems with maligning a brother who needs help, support, and prayers; then there is nothing I have to tell you that could possible persuade you. The brother is guilty, and anyone who defends him is guilty, in your mind.

I am reminded of an old western movie I once saw. They were going to give the accused murderer a fair trial before they took him out and hung him.

That is what I think! :thumbsup:

"That is all!"

Thanks Rhet. I am glad that I am only unreasonable in your estimation. For a second, there, I thought you were going to say I was demon-possessed!

Thank you for indicating that Ankerberg needs help, support, and prayers. Or did you mean Caner?

Rhet, why don't you just admit that your previous statement about Ankerberg "only defending his friend" leaves a lot to be desired. You know it is not right to lie even if you are only defending a friend. Well, I am at least assuming this. Maybe you actually believe that Caner's testimony is completely true and Ankerberg was right to state this. Is that what you believe?

There truly does appear to be no fear of God in the church. You can say whatever you want, knowing that any criticism that comes your way will be met by your supporters with the false accusation of unchristian and unbiblical.
 

Paul33

New Member
It's not rumor when you can verify with his own words.



http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3960

On the DL today I raised a simple question: where is the church in the Ergun Caner Scandal? Why is it that Liberty University is being seen as the final authority in determining "the truth"?




Why extend grace to someone who has yet to acknowledge any wrong doing, nor has he asked for any.




Not if it was true. Was it wrong to call Jimmy Swaggart an adulterer?

Grasshopper,

I am beginning to wonder if the Gospel is really as good as we claim it is. If the Gospel is the solution to the sin problem, why do so many people have a problem confessing their sins? Does the Gospel not work?

I would think that we would rush to acknowledge our sins so that we could receive the forgiveness that is found only in the Gospel. Repentance should be a joy and not a curse, because when we repent we find forgiveness.

Does repentance not work once we are saved? Does being saved mean never having to say "I have sinned"?
 

Paul33

New Member
Despite the weaknesses and political correctness of the official statement of LU with regard to Caner, one can still make out the truth that Caner lied and his contract as "dean" and president (implied) will not be renewed.

Will John Ankerberg now post a new statement on his web page calling LU unchristian and unbiblical for attacking the self-sacrifice of Caner?

Or will John Ankerberg retract his statement that the testimony of Caner is completely true?
 

Martin

Active Member
Does Ankerberg's support make you wonder about other things you have seen on his show?

No. Groups like the Masons and the Mormons often don't advertise their strange beliefs. As a result, many of their members don't know what the groups stand for. I have seen this on many occasions. Ankerberg's program is generally very good and I have learned a great deal from his ministry. His response to ABC's "The Search for Jesus" was very well done.
 

Martin

Active Member
There is not enough evidence to determine this. Those who have not spoken with Caner personally cannot know. Sad

That is simply not true. All one has to do is look at the legal documents and listen to several of Dr. Caner's sermons. What one will find is clear and inexcusable contradictions. One does not mistake where one was born or what country one grew up in. As far as I am concerned this issue is closed. However to say that "there is not enough evidence" to be able to determine if his testimony is totally true is just ignoring the evidence that has been presented in various places. Liberty University looked at the evidence and agreed that there were some serious issues. As a result, they removed him from his position of leadership. This shows that the evidence is clear enough.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That is simply not true. All one has to do is look at the legal documents and listen to several of Dr. Caner's sermons. What one will find is clear and inexcusable contradictions. One does not mistake where one was born or what country one grew up in. As far as I am concerned this issue is closed. However to say that "there is not enough evidence" to be able to determine if his testimony is totally true is just ignoring the evidence that has been presented in various places. Liberty University looked at the evidence and agreed that there were some serious issues. As a result, they removed him from his position of leadership. This shows that the evidence is clear enough.

Without giving Caner a personal and full hearing it is improper to make a judgment. All that can be said is Liberty talked with him and found some part of his statements problematic. What those are we cannot know. It matters not what you think you have determined by listening to any recordings. It is improper to make judgments of him unless you have heard his own explanation. To do anything else is unChristian and ungodly. And to continue to run on about it on this board is as has been already said. Backbiting and gossip. Let your conscience be your guide.
 

Martin

Active Member
Without giving Caner a personal and full hearing it is improper to make a judgment. All that can be said is Liberty talked with him and found some part of his statements problematic. What those are we cannot know. It matters not what you think you have determined by listening to any recordings. It is improper to make judgments of him unless you have heard his own explanation.

Among other things, I would love to hear how one explains saying that they were born in Istanbul, Turkey (followed by a racial slur) when they were, in fact, born in Stockholm, Sweden. That, among other contradictions, seem almost totally impossible to explain in any acceptable way. I speak in front of groups on a regular basis and, like most healthy people, I have never been confused on the place of my birth or where I grew up.

To do anything else is unChristian and ungodly. And to continue to run on about it on this board is as has been already said. Backbiting and gossip. Let your conscience be your guide.

Dr. Caner will not answer questions on this matter and most who have tried have found themselves banned from his Twitter/Facebook page/s. Other than his generic statement very early on in this controversy, he has said little to nothing about this in a public forum. I would love for Dr. Caner to come out and explain these clear contradictions. If, as some have claimed, he is innocent of the charges that should be no problem. However, as I pointed out above, there is no way to explain how one gets confused on where they were born and grew up.

I don't have to personally talk to Ergun Caner to see and point out the many contradictions in his speaking/writing. It is public record. Those who try to assert that Dr. Caner has done nothing wrong, and those who try to silence those who point out the problems with many of his claims, are are examples of the real problem here. The real problem, for me, is not so much Dr. Ergun Caner (though his behavior is clearly problematic). The real problem here is an evangelical community that is more concerned about celebrity than truth, emotion than fact, and style than substance. Dr. Caner is just the latest example of this problem. Far too many evangelicals are willing to uncritically accept and defend someone like Eurgan Caner.
 

TomVols

New Member
Two points on this statement.

First, because of recordings, we do not need to have "been there" to hear the full context of the statements in question and to make a decision as to their legitimacy.

Secondly, I have not talked to Caner about the charges. Liberty is investigating and I trust there are some reason to investigate. This does not mean he is guilty, but it means there were situations which demand Liberty to take the charges serious.
I'll go a step further. There are some that seem as though that, even if they had firsthand evidence, they aren't going to say one word against Ergun but they'll attack James White all day long. Sad. Just because I don't like someone's soteriology or eschatology doesn't mean I think they're a liar with bad motives.

Back to the OP....yes, it gives me a moment of pause to say that Ankerberg is supporting Ergun here. But that doesn't mean Ankerberg's whole well is poisioned. Neither is Ergun's, by the way. If a broken watch can be right twice a day...well, you know the rest.

I don't have to personally talk to Ergun Caner to see and point out the many contradictions in his speaking/writing. It is public record. Those who try to assert that Dr. Caner has done nothing wrong, and those who try to silence those who point out the problems with many of his claims, are are examples of the real problem here. The real problem, for me, is not so much Dr. Ergun Caner (though his behavior is clearly problematic). The real problem here is an evangelical community that is more concerned about celebrity than truth, emotion than fact, and style than substance. Dr. Caner is just the latest example of this problem. Far too many evangelicals are willing to uncritically accept and defend someone like Eurgan Caner.
Martin, this is logical, Biblical, and sensible. How dare you! You pagan! :laugh: Sad that you will be attacked for this, if you haven't already.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'll go a step further. There are some that seem as though that, even if they had firsthand evidence, they aren't going to say one word against Ergun but they'll attack James White all day long. Sad. Just because I don't like someone's soteriology or eschatology doesn't mean I think they're a liar with bad motives.

Back to the OP....yes, it gives me a moment of pause to say that Ankerberg is supporting Ergun here. But that doesn't mean Ankerberg's whole well is poisioned. Neither is Ergun's, by the way. If a broken watch can be right twice a day...well, you know the rest.

Martin, this is logical, Biblical, and sensible. How dare you! You pagan! :laugh: Sad that you will be attacked for this, if you haven't already.

So how is gossiping on Baptist Board Biblical?
 
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