John Calvin vs Calvinism

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF... Your wrong he died for all men... ALL HIS FATHER GAVE HIM!... That is the world that is talked about in John 3:16!... But don't worry about the pitiful few elect... He saved a numberless multitude!... Brother Glen

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Well then I stand correct if it has that caviat, “All the Father gave Him.”

 

[JonC]

I will agree, you are funny

Did you hear the one about the Baptist who walked in a bar....

 

[tyndale1946]

Did you hear the one about the Baptist who walked in a bar....

A priest, a baptist and a rabbi walk into a bar and start getting sloshed.

They decide that they need to test their faith to see which one is the best. They decide the ultimate challenge is to see if they can convert a bear.

So the next day they all go out into the wood to try and meet up again at the bar that night.

The priest comes in with a broken arm and scratches all over his body and smilingly says: "I had to run around the bear and read him the entire Bible but he saw the light and he was converted."

The baptist is on crutches with two broken legs and a broken arm and his head all bandaged. He says: "I had to wrestle that bear to the ground and baptize him in the stream but he saw the light and he was converted, hallelujah!"

Then the Rabbi gets wheeled in in a full body cast. He says: "Ya know, in retrospect, I probably shouldn't have started with circumcision.

You asked Jon... Brother Glen

 

[atpollard]

My question to you is how you equate Christ dying for mankind as universal salvation. It seems that Scripture draws a very clear distinction between the wages of sin being death (sin bringing forth death) and the wrath to come (the wrath we, in Christ, escape).

A direct question deserves an equally direct answer.

I do not equate Christ dying for mankind as universal salvation. I do not believe that Christ died for all mankind (every person without exception) but rather, I believe that Christ died to achieve the result seen in Revelation 5:9-10 [a great multitude from every tribe, language, people, and nation] … all mankind (SOME from every people group without distinction).

Ultimately, I AM a Particular Baptist (not a General Baptist) and I believe that, as Spurgeon described it, God did not build a bridge wide enough for the whole world that spans only half way to salvation, but built a narrow bridge - just enough to fit “whosoever believes” [John 3:16] - that carries us all the way from “dead in your offenses and sins” [Ephesians 2:1-3] to “these whom He justified, He also glorified” [Romans 8:29-30].

Universal Salvation is merely a logical conclusion of a simple argument:

• We are saved by the blood of Jesus.
• Jesus died to save EVERYONE (no exceptions) … or so the argument is made by others.
• [logical conclusion] … then EVERYONE should be saved, right?

 

[atpollard]

Christ dying for "all men without exception" is a Calvin quote. But it is accurate. It means that Christ experienced the death that we will all experience (the wages of sin). Death is, because of the Cross, without its "sting". It is not final. Afterwards, again because of Christ's work) all men will be raised - some to life, others to a second death.

Please correct me if I have misunderstood, but it appears that you are arguing that Christ’s death was for EVERYONE (all persons without exception) and obtained for them/us nothing more and nothing less (through His death) than “resurrection to stand judgement”. We all (saints and sinners) get a “get out of Sheol” card … this allows us (saints and sinners) to move on to an ETERNAL DESTINY which is determined by something OTHER THAN the simple fact of Christ’s death.

Is that accurate?

 

[JonC]

A direct question deserves an equally direct answer.

I do not equate Christ dying for mankind as universal salvation. I do not believe that Christ died for all mankind (every person without exception) but rather, I believe that Christ died to achieve the result seen in Revelation 5:9-10 [a great multitude from every tribe, language, people, and nation] … all mankind (SOME from every people group without distinction).

Ultimately, I AM a Particular Baptist (not a General Baptist) and I believe that, as Spurgeon described it, God did not build a bridge wide enough for the whole world that spans only half way to salvation, but built a narrow bridge - just enough to fit “whosoever believes” [John 3:16] - that carries us all the way from “dead in your offenses and sins” [Ephesians 2:1-3] to “these whom He justified, He also glorified” [Romans 8:29-30].

Universal Salvation is merely a logical conclusion of a simple argument:

• We are saved by the blood of Jesus.
• Jesus died to save EVERYONE (no exceptions) … or so the argument is made by others.
• [logical conclusion] … then EVERYONE should be saved, right?

At least this is a start. You do not equate Christ dying for all man as meaning eternal salvation. That leaves us room for discussion.

Your logical conclusion is correct, however there is an error prior to the conclusion. I put the mistake in bold. There is also a term that needs fleshing out. As it stands the meaning is ambiguous. I will underline that part.

• We are saved by the blood of Jesus.
• Jesus died to save EVERYONE (no exceptions) … or so the argument is made by others.
• [logical conclusion] … then EVERYONE should be saved, right?

First the mistake.
I never argued that Jesus died to save every person.
That is just a simple error, but it plays into your conclusion.

The next part is probably more involved.

You said "We are saved by the blood of Jesus". You rightly pointed out the problems associated with using words and phrases like "codes". Please explain specifically what you mean by "we are saved by the blood of Christ".

 

[JonC]

Due to the length of this thread it is closed.

Please feel free continue by starting another thread.

@atpollard ,

I have started another to continue our discussion.

Christ died for all man

 

[MrW]

You can type the word, then highlight it then select Bold/Italics/Underline

Yes, but I can't on that machine. I do know I can on this one.
But it is kind of you to point it out. Thank you.