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Featured John Calvin's Treatise Against the Ana-Baptist

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rockytopva, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    You are following the lead of Rocky in his wackiness.

    I'm more of a Calvin man than a Luther fan. Luther was better before 1525 than afterwards.


    I agree about how terrible and wretched that particular piece of writing you referenced above was. I have said the same for 40 years.
     
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    The above is accurate.
     
  3. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    I consider myself Wesleyan. However a good Wesleyan revival is only good for a few decades before it grows cold and we become just as Laodicean as the rest of the church. So I lean more non denominational.
     
  4. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    I believe there are bad apples that grow on every denominational tree.
     
  5. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Would you be a member of a Lutheran Church?
     
  6. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    There is such a wide array of spirits in churches these days. I would have to visit and see. I visited a Baptist Church once where the young people met in a seperate building where you could hear the religious rock and roll through the walls. Then there are Baptist churches that are more traditional and more to my liking. I do not believe we can judge people by what hangs on the shingle these days.
     
  7. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    We have a Presbyterian church near by. Instead of bible studies they want to talk about environmental issues. So that is not my kind of place either. Come to think about it, it is hard to find people who like discussing bible these days. I bet most people do not know who John Calvin and Jacob Arminius were, much less have a meaningful conversation about them.
     
  8. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Would an "apology" from that Presbyterian pastor man anything to you? You do know that the Lutheran was of the same Progressive Liberal DNA, yet you posted his apology story.
     
  9. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    What bishop Mark Hansen showed here was more than an apology... This was pure repentance! You can see great determination in this mans eyes to settle this thing right, in which he did. And you also see a godly joy in the people around him, proud of the decision he had made.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  10. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Have you ever heard of virtue signaling?
     
  11. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    It should be noted that the modern baptist movement did not grow out of the Anabaptist movement. The modern baptist movement developed out of the English separatists. Two strains of theology were seen in the Baptist movement nearly from the beginning--the General Baptists and the Particular Baptists. The General Baptists held to unlimited atonement and the Particular Baptists, as you might imagine, held to a particular, or limited, atonement. To greater or lesser degrees, the modern baptist movement does have a reformed strain in it going back almost to the beginning of the movement.

    The Archangel
     
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  12. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I almost agree with you. The Particulars arose from the English dissenters. The Generals owed a large debt to the Dutch Anabaptists. While they were separate movements, I don't think you can rule out the influence of the Anabaptists on the evolution of Baptist thought. The Anabaptists believed in religious liberty, and it's hard to find such a belief among the English dissenters except among Baptists (and later Quakers). The Presbyterians certainly believed in persecuting people they disagreed with, and even the Independents (Congregationalists) had that tendency, as evidenced by the persecution of Baptists in New England.
     
  13. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Your understanding, though, is not accurate. Smyth and Helwys were General Baptists; the Particulars came later. The phrase "Correlation does not prove causation" is helpful here. While there might be some similarities in some doctrines, the denominations are not the same. There is no evidence I've read linking the General Baptists and the Anabaptists and there is no scholar I know that would support your position.

    The Archangel
     
  14. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    You have my sympathies. Is Davey your idol? It sounds like it.

    John MacArthur was not and is not a hyper-Calvinist.
     
  15. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    1. Did you know that the BBN carries programs from Calvinists? It seems not. But I assure you, it's true.

    2. Did you know that there are reformed Baptists who don't hold to paedobaptism?

    This is just a partisan rant using partisan sources.
     
  16. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    ''True Christian believers are sheep among wolves, sheep for the slaughter...' - Conrad Grebel, cofounder of a Swiss Bretheren movement , an anabaptist in that he had baptized folk the second time.

    If the year was 1524, and I had my choice of being a Catholic, Calvinist, Lutheran, or Anababtist.... I would think, even though it would cost me my life, my best bet as a Christian would be Anabaptist.
     
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  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Have the Anabaptists ever apologised for what went on in Munster?
    Just wondering.
     
  18. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    Most anabaptist believed, "True Christian believers are sheep among wolves, sheep for the slaughter..." And we're non violent. Jan Mattys was an exception, and was not at all like his elder, Melchior Hoffman. Most anabaptist would agree that Mattys should of remained as a non violent sheep, and should not have started a rebellion, which cost him his life.
     
  19. Katarina Von Bora

    Katarina Von Bora Active Member

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    There is a reason they were called the end of the dark ages.

    I see a lot ranting, but no scripture to support your views. I haven't seen even one independent source. Give me a Bible and that's all I need.

    I'm not accusing you of anything, but the lack of scripture support is noticeable.

    I hear you can be adopted by the Amish.
     
  20. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Sorry not to have responded sooner.

    Yes, but that is immaterial.

    It might. But it might not.

    The Smyth congregation (including Helwys) fled to Amsterdam to escape persecution. They worked and lived and worshiped in facilities provided by a Waterlander Anabaptist. Smyth obviously was deeply influenced by the Waterlanders, even so far as attempting to have his congregation joined the Waterlanders. Helwys disagreed with some points of Smyth's evolving theology, particularly unorthodox views about the celestial flesh of Christ and successionism in the validity of the ordinances and broke with Smyth.

    Nonetheless, it appears that Smyth and Helwys were traditional Separatists (Calvinists) until they went to Holland, when they adopted an Arminian soteriology. It is not difficult task to think that they were influenced by the Waterlanders.

    Helwys returned to England to found the first General Baptist church on English soil. The connection between the Anabaptists and the Generals seems fairly clear. That you can't find a document from Helwys that says "we owe some of our theology to the Anabaptists" is beside the point.

    Now, is there any evidence that the Generals or Anabaptists influenced the Particulars? If you accept the Kiffin Manuscript and the Jessey Documents, it appears that the Particulars' rejection of infant baptism and subsequent requirement of baptism by immersion were strengthened by the examples of continental Anabaptists. The story goes that the English Baptists sent an emissary to Holland to learn about immersion and met with Collegiants, an amalgam of (largely) Remonstrants and Anabaptists — who were provided a declaration of faith by a Waterlander, Hans de Ries, who was eager for a union with the Smyth congregation.

    Then I suggest your reading is not up to date. I am not arguing that the English Baptists were direct descendants of the continental Anabaptists; the Separatist/Calvinist leanings of the Particulars is beyond doubt.

    Many years ago I described the second wave of the Protestant Reformation as a heady stew of diverse theologies and practices (some orthodox, some not) of which many groups — including the English Baptists — imbibed.

    Nathan Finn, dean of the School of Theology and Missions and professor of Christian thought and tradition at Union University argues for a "convergent" view of Baptist origins, with influences from a variety of traditions merging with the Separatist river to create what we call Baptists.

    Between The Times - Toward a Convergent View of Baptist Origins, Part 2
     
    #60 rsr, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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