John Calvin's Treatise Against the Ana-Baptist

[Rippon]

John Calvin would have burnt everyone on this thread on the stake.

You are following the lead of Rocky in his wackiness.

On the Jews and Their Lies
On the Jews and Their Lies - Wikipedia

I'm more of a Calvin man than a Luther fan. Luther was better before 1525 than afterwards.

I agree about how terrible and wretched that particular piece of writing you referenced above was. I have said the same for 40 years.

 

[Rippon]

Calvin, at times, could be quite irritable, but much of this can be attributed to his ill health. He was plagued with constant headaches which hardly ever left him. The pain was so intense that many nights he could not sleep. He also had some kind of disease of the trachea which, when he spoke too much, caused him to spit blood. Several attacks of pleurisy prepared the way for consumption, of which he finally died. He had acute hemorrhoids, the pain of which was unbearably increased by an internal abscess that would not heal. Several times intermittent fever laid him low, sapping his strength and constantly reducing it. He had gallstones and kidney stones in addition to stomach cramps and wicked intestinal influenzas. To top it all off, he had acute arthritis. In one of his letters to a friend he said, “If only my condition were not a constant death struggle.” Another Side of John Calvin

The above is accurate.

 

[rockytopva]

Are you a Lutheran?

I consider myself Wesleyan. However a good Wesleyan revival is only good for a few decades before it grows cold and we become just as Laodicean as the rest of the church. So I lean more non denominational.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe there are bad apples that grow on every denominational tree.

 

[thatbrian]

I consider myself Wesleyan. However a good Wesleyan revival is only good for a few decades before it grows cold and we become just as Laodicean as the rest of the church. So I lean more non denominational.

Would you be a member of a Lutheran Church?

 

[rockytopva]

Would you be a member of a Lutheran Church?

There is such a wide array of spirits in churches these days. I would have to visit and see. I visited a Baptist Church once where the young people met in a seperate building where you could hear the religious rock and roll through the walls. Then there are Baptist churches that are more traditional and more to my liking. I do not believe we can judge people by what hangs on the shingle these days.

 

[rockytopva]

Would you be a member of a Lutheran Church?

We have a Presbyterian church near by. Instead of bible studies they want to talk about environmental issues. So that is not my kind of place either. Come to think about it, it is hard to find people who like discussing bible these days. I bet most people do not know who John Calvin and Jacob Arminius were, much less have a meaningful conversation about them.

 

[thatbrian]

We have a Presbyterian church near by. Instead of bible studies they want to talk about environmental issues. So that is not my kind of place either. Come to think about it, it is hard to find people who like discussing bible these days. I bet most people do not know who John Calvin and Jacob Arminius were, much less have a meaningful conversation about them.

Would an "apology" from that Presbyterian pastor man anything to you? You do know that the Lutheran was of the same Progressive Liberal DNA, yet you posted his apology story.

 

[rockytopva]

Would an "apology" from that Presbyterian pastor man anything to you? You do know that the Lutheran was of the same Progressive Liberal DNA, yet you posted his apology story.

What bishop Mark Hansen showed here was more than an apology... This was pure repentance! You can see great determination in this mans eyes to settle this thing right, in which he did. And you also see a godly joy in the people around him, proud of the decision he had made.

 

[thatbrian]

What bishop Mark Hansen showed here was more than an apology... This was pure repentance! You can see great determination in this mans eyes to settle this thing right, in which he did. And you also see a godly joy in the people around him, proud of the decision he had made.

Have you ever heard of virtue signaling?

 

[The Archangel]

It should be noted that the modern baptist movement did not grow out of the Anabaptist movement. The modern baptist movement developed out of the English separatists. Two strains of theology were seen in the Baptist movement nearly from the beginning--the General Baptists and the Particular Baptists. The General Baptists held to unlimited atonement and the Particular Baptists, as you might imagine, held to a particular, or limited, atonement. To greater or lesser degrees, the modern baptist movement does have a reformed strain in it going back almost to the beginning of the movement.

The Archangel

 

[rsr]

I almost agree with you. The Particulars arose from the English dissenters. The Generals owed a large debt to the Dutch Anabaptists. While they were separate movements, I don't think you can rule out the influence of the Anabaptists on the evolution of Baptist thought. The Anabaptists believed in religious liberty, and it's hard to find such a belief among the English dissenters except among Baptists (and later Quakers). The Presbyterians certainly believed in persecuting people they disagreed with, and even the Independents (Congregationalists) had that tendency, as evidenced by the persecution of Baptists in New England.

 

[The Archangel]

I almost agree with you. The Particulars arose from the English dissenters. The Generals owed a large debt to the Dutch Anabaptists. While they were separate movements, I don't think you can rule out the influence of the Anabaptists on the evolution of Baptist thought. The Anabaptists believed in religious liberty, and it's hard to find such a belief among the English dissenters except among Baptists (and later Quakers). The Presbyterians certainly believed in persecuting people they disagreed with, and even the Independents (Congregationalists) had that tendency, as evidenced by the persecution of Baptists in New England.

Your understanding, though, is not accurate. Smyth and Helwys were General Baptists; the Particulars came later. The phrase "Correlation does not prove causation" is helpful here. While there might be some similarities in some doctrines, the denominations are not the same. There is no evidence I've read linking the General Baptists and the Anabaptists and there is no scholar I know that would support your position.

The Archangel

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

I am a long time supporter of the Bible Broadcasting Network, founded by the late Lowell Davey, who would later rebuke and take the John MacArthur program off the air....

"In December 1989, the Bible Broadcasting Network terminated MacArthur's Grace to You program. In explaining that step, BBN president Lowell Davey referred to MacArthur's teachings on the blood of Christ, and "Lordship Salvation." Davey called these teachings "confusing." In a letter dated January 15, 1990, Davey cited a, "....drift by Dr. MacArthur to a theological position that we could not adhere to," and said that MacArthur's sermon series on the theology of election "....convinced us that the direction of 'Grace to You' was toward Hyper-Calvinism...." - John F. MacArthur - Wikipedia

Good for Lowell Davey, which also helps motivate me in keeping the bbnradio.org on the air.

You have my sympathies. Is Davey your idol? It sounds like it.

John MacArthur was not and is not a hyper-Calvinist.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

To define the Anabaptist....

"Anabaptists are Christians who believe that baptism is valid only when the candidate confesses his or her faith in Christ and wants to be baptized." - Anabaptism - Wikipedia


" I have never taught Anabaptism.... But the right baptism of Christ, which is preceded by teaching and oral confession of faith, I teach, and say that infant baptism is a robbery of the right baptism of Christ." — Hubmaier, Balthasar (1526), Short apology

Anabaptists were heavily and long persecuted starting in the 16th century by both Magisterial Protestants and Roman Catholics, largely because of their interpretation of scripture which put them at odds with official state church interpretations and with government.

The Lutherans have since did the right thing and apologized to the Anabaptist for the persecutions waged against them. You would never, due to the high level of Calvinistic ego, get an apology from them!

Lutherans reconcile with Mennonites 500 years after bloody persecution | Culture| Arts, music and lifestyle reporting from Germany | DW | 26.07.2010


Bishop Mark S. Hanson doing the right thing and apologizing to the Anabaptist, again, something a Calvinist would never do. If I would ever meet the Bishop Mark S. Hanson would tell him that was a very decent thing to do and I take my hat off to him!

Metro Lutheran | Lutheran church builds bridges, works toward healing with Mennonite neighbors

1. Did you know that the BBN carries programs from Calvinists? It seems not. But I assure you, it's true.

2. Did you know that there are reformed Baptists who don't hold to paedobaptism?

This is just a partisan rant using partisan sources.

 

[rockytopva]

''True Christian believers are sheep among wolves, sheep for the slaughter...' - Conrad Grebel, cofounder of a Swiss Bretheren movement , an anabaptist in that he had baptized folk the second time.

If the year was 1524, and I had my choice of being a Catholic, Calvinist, Lutheran, or Anababtist.... I would think, even though it would cost me my life, my best bet as a Christian would be Anabaptist.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Bishop Mark S. Hanson doing the right thing and apologizing to the Anabaptist, again, something a Calvinist would never do.

Have the Anabaptists ever apologised for what went on in Munster?
Just wondering.

 

[rockytopva]

Have the Anabaptists ever apologised for what went on in Munster?
Just wondering.

Most anabaptist believed, "True Christian believers are sheep among wolves, sheep for the slaughter..." And we're non violent. Jan Mattys was an exception, and was not at all like his elder, Melchior Hoffman. Most anabaptist would agree that Mattys should of remained as a non violent sheep, and should not have started a rebellion, which cost him his life.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

''True Christian believers are sheep among wolves, sheep for the slaughter...' - Conrad Grebel, cofounder of a Swiss Bretheren movement , an anabaptist in that he had baptized folk the second time.

If the year was 1524, and I had my choice of being a Catholic, Calvinist, Lutheran, or Anababtist.... I would think, even though it would cost me my life, my best bet as a Christian would be Anabaptist.

There is a reason they were called the end of the dark ages.

I see a lot ranting, but no scripture to support your views. I haven't seen even one independent source. Give me a Bible and that's all I need.

I'm not accusing you of anything, but the lack of scripture support is noticeable.

I hear you can be adopted by the Amish.

 

[rsr]

Sorry not to have responded sooner.

Your understanding, though, is not accurate. Smyth and Helwys were General Baptists; the Particulars came later.

Yes, but that is immaterial.

The phrase "Correlation does not prove causation" is helpful here.

It might. But it might not.

While there might be some similarities in some doctrines, the denominations are not the same. There is no evidence I've read linking the General Baptists and the Anabaptists

The Smyth congregation (including Helwys) fled to Amsterdam to escape persecution. They worked and lived and worshiped in facilities provided by a Waterlander Anabaptist. Smyth obviously was deeply influenced by the Waterlanders, even so far as attempting to have his congregation joined the Waterlanders. Helwys disagreed with some points of Smyth's evolving theology, particularly unorthodox views about the celestial flesh of Christ and successionism in the validity of the ordinances and broke with Smyth.

Nonetheless, it appears that Smyth and Helwys were traditional Separatists (Calvinists) until they went to Holland, when they adopted an Arminian soteriology. It is not difficult task to think that they were influenced by the Waterlanders.

Helwys returned to England to found the first General Baptist church on English soil. The connection between the Anabaptists and the Generals seems fairly clear. That you can't find a document from Helwys that says "we owe some of our theology to the Anabaptists" is beside the point.

Now, is there any evidence that the Generals or Anabaptists influenced the Particulars? If you accept the Kiffin Manuscript and the Jessey Documents, it appears that the Particulars' rejection of infant baptism and subsequent requirement of baptism by immersion were strengthened by the examples of continental Anabaptists. The story goes that the English Baptists sent an emissary to Holland to learn about immersion and met with Collegiants, an amalgam of (largely) Remonstrants and Anabaptists — who were provided a declaration of faith by a Waterlander, Hans de Ries, who was eager for a union with the Smyth congregation.

and there is no scholar I know that would support your position.

Then I suggest your reading is not up to date. I am not arguing that the English Baptists were direct descendants of the continental Anabaptists; the Separatist/Calvinist leanings of the Particulars is beyond doubt.

Many years ago I described the second wave of the Protestant Reformation as a heady stew of diverse theologies and practices (some orthodox, some not) of which many groups — including the English Baptists — imbibed.

Nathan Finn, dean of the School of Theology and Missions and professor of Christian thought and tradition at Union University argues for a "convergent" view of Baptist origins, with influences from a variety of traditions merging with the Separatist river to create what we call Baptists.

The earliest Baptists were first and foremost English Separatists who came to baptistic convictions. As good Protestants, they came to these convictions through their reading of Scripture. We should rightly emphasize the English Separatist roots of the Baptist movement and not downplay the role that the Bible played in shaping Baptist convictions.

But the earliest Baptists were aware that they were not the first baptistic Christians since the New Testament era. In fact, just like us they were aware that there had at least occasionally been free church movements in church history. Some of these groups likely immersed, though there is evidence that there were soteriological deficiencies and other shortcomings among the independent medieval sects. But Baptists knew that they were not taking a historically novel step in arguing for religious liberty, believer’s churches, and credobaptism.

Even more importantly, Baptists recognized that the Continental Anabaptists had recently rejected infant baptism, mixed membership, and state churches. Furthermore, both General and Particular Baptists actually interacted with these Anabaptists, though the Arminians appeared to have been more inclined to such interaction than the Calvinists. It seems very unlikely that the Anabaptists had no influence on the earliest Baptists.

Add to the mix the milieu in which the earliest Baptists found themselves: a century in which England was filled with various forms of political radicalism, ecclesiastical reform movements, theological innovation, and a multiplicity of sects. These movements interacted with each other and at times even cross-pollinated each other, resulting in what historian Christopher Hill calls “a world turned upside down.” This was certainly true of the Baptists, where even the line between Calvinists and Arminians were not neatly drawn until after the English Civil War, though that is another discussion for another day.

Between The Times - Toward a Convergent View of Baptist Origins, Part 2