John Calvin's Treatise Against the Ana-Baptist

[TCassidy]

Good for Lowell Davey,

No, shame on him for lying about JM's position on the blood and that he and his radio program are heading toward Hyper-Calvinism.

 

[James Donovan]

To show the true colors of the sheer spirit of hatred that existed in John Calvin one need look no further than the "John Calvin's Treatise Against Ana-Baptist" book. And here is how he begins....

TO write against all the false opinions & errours of the Anabaptists, should be a thing too long, & such a bottomless pit, as I could not well come out of. For this canker differeth in this thing from all other sects of hereticks: that she hath not erred only in certain points: but she hath engendered a whole sea, as it were, of foolish & false opinions. In such wise that scant shall a man find one Anabaptist which hath not some fantasy singular: which his fellows have not. So that if we would pluck out, or rehearse all their wicked doctrines, we should never make an end. But now at length they become unto two principal sects: whereof the one, though she be full of wicked & pernicious errours, yet doth she abide in much more simplicity. For she yet receiveth the holy scripture, as we do. And if men do dispute with those that be of that sect, it shall be perceived wherein they differ from us, & they will express their meaning, & in conclusion it may be perceived in what they accord, & wherein they dissent. The second sect is a mass of such foolish & beastly opinions, as the like cannot be found, insomuch that it is wonder how creatures which bear the figure of a man, can be so clean without sense & reason, as to suffer themselves so to be deceived, & fall into fantasies more than brutish. This sect call themselves libertines. And counterfeit so much the spiritual, that they set no more by the word of God, than they do by fables: except it be when it pleaseth them, and when as they may deprave it, and by force make it to serve for their devilish opinions. And besides this they have a charming or croaking as it were Cranes, so that a man cannot tell what it is, that they would say, and no more do they wot what it is themselves: but that by this craft they cover the filthiness of their doctrine. For their principles are to confound all differences between good & ill, & to mingle God so with the Devil that it should not be discerned between the one and the other, and so to make men not only without all feeling in their consciences before God: but also without shame before the world. Now see you wherefore they drive themselves into such caves of obscure and doubtful words, to the end that their villainy should not be perceived, lest we should have them in horror and execration. As indeed our nature repugneth against such monstrous things as they bring forth. So now to write in a sum against the errours of the Anabaptists, the shortest and most expedient way is to keep this division, and to gather apart in one treatise the errours of them which be not altogether so mad and desperate: and in another treatise to discover the venomous malice of those wicked, which under the colour of spirituality, would make men like unto brute beasts. - John Calvin

Thank you for posting

 

[Jerome]

If you think John Calvin was a warm and loving guy... I've got news for You!

He was a warm, person he was not haughty. He cared about others. He grieved for other and sympathized with them. You need to read his letters to get a full-orbed idea.

Yeah, in another thread I quoted from the preface of Beza and Calvin's Bible de Genève (without revealing to Rippon the source). Rippon's assessment? "Those are very harsh words, not irenic in the least."

Oh, here's that thread:

Forums > Baptist Debate Forums (Baptist Only) > Bible Versions & Translations > Can a Bible translation be a work of the Devil?

 

[SheepWhisperer]

This seems to be the kind of life the "rebaptizers" suffered at the hands of other so-called "Christians".

........and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38(Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth...........

Maybe these folks weren't perfect in their doctrine/practices but did God tell his NT churches to persecute, torture and murder anyone?

 

[Revmitchell]

John Calvin then goes on to compare the Ana-Baptist to Sadducees, mad bedlams, and of wicked opinions,

He might as well have called them "drones".

 

[Jerome]

Kenneth Good, Are Baptists Reformed?, p. 181:

[Calvin apologist Willem] Balke labors to justify this unchristian vilification on the part of Calvin....[He] attempts to justify Calvin's very embarrassing rhetoric on the basis that all sixteenth-century polemics descended to this level

However, Balke's repeated attempts to justify Calvin's severe denigration of the Anabaptists fail to accomplish his purpose for two reasons: First, the Reformers' guide to decorum should not have been the accepted practices of the world, but the standards clearly spelled out in Scripture....And, second, Balke neither quotes nor cites similar language from the Anabaptists

One can hardly approve of the violent language of a Luther or a Calvin, nor...condone the despicable persecution which such Reformed vociferations precipitated

 

[Jerome]

Yeah, in another thread I quoted from the preface of Beza and Calvin's Bible de Genève (without revealing to Rippon the source). Rippon's assessment? "Those are very harsh words, not irenic in the least."

“Satan has translators….such as Sebastian Castellion….silence him….warn all Christians to beware of such a character, the chosen instrument of Satan”

Said of a rival French Bible translator. This, in a Bible? Sick.

 

[Yeshua1]

Warm? He called them a bunch of snakes!

Matt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Yes, Jesus was really "Hot" towards the Pharisees!

 

[Yeshua1]

I am a long time supporter of the Bible Broadcasting Network, founded by the late Lowell Davey, who would later rebuke and take the John MacArthur program off the air....

"In December 1989, the Bible Broadcasting Network terminated MacArthur's Grace to You program. In explaining that step, BBN president Lowell Davey referred to MacArthur's teachings on the blood of Christ, and "Lordship Salvation." Davey called these teachings "confusing." In a letter dated January 15, 1990, Davey cited a, "....drift by Dr. MacArthur to a theological position that we could not adhere to," and said that MacArthur's sermon series on the theology of election "....convinced us that the direction of 'Grace to You' was toward Hyper-Calvinism...." - John F. MacArthur - Wikipedia

Good for Lowell Davey, which also helps motivate me in keeping the bbnradio.org on the air.

I disagree with Dr Mac on his Lordship views, and end times, but other than those items, he has excellent theology, especially in regards to salvation!

 

[SheepWhisperer]

There is a difference between false accusing/slander vs truth/rebuke. The Lord has the right to even call you a fool, but you ain't supposed to do it to anybody.

 

[rockytopva]

To define the Anabaptist....

"Anabaptists are Christians who believe that baptism is valid only when the candidate confesses his or her faith in Christ and wants to be baptized." - Anabaptism - Wikipedia


" I have never taught Anabaptism.... But the right baptism of Christ, which is preceded by teaching and oral confession of faith, I teach, and say that infant baptism is a robbery of the right baptism of Christ." — Hubmaier, Balthasar (1526), Short apology

Anabaptists were heavily and long persecuted starting in the 16th century by both Magisterial Protestants and Roman Catholics, largely because of their interpretation of scripture which put them at odds with official state church interpretations and with government.

The Lutherans have since did the right thing and apologized to the Anabaptist for the persecutions waged against them. You would never, due to the high level of Calvinistic ego, get an apology from them!

Lutherans reconcile with Mennonites 500 years after bloody persecution | Culture| Arts, music and lifestyle reporting from Germany | DW | 26.07.2010


Bishop Mark S. Hanson doing the right thing and apologizing to the Anabaptist, again, something a Calvinist would never do. If I would ever meet the Bishop Mark S. Hanson would tell him that was a very decent thing to do and I take my hat off to him!

Metro Lutheran | Lutheran church builds bridges, works toward healing with Mennonite neighbors

 

[rockytopva]

In the statement, titled "Action on the Legacy of Lutheran Persecution of Anabaptists," the assembly repented for violent persecution of Anabaptists and for the ways in which Lutheran reformers supported persecutions with theological arguments.

The statement asks for forgiveness "from God and from our Mennonite sisters and brothers" for past wrongdoings and the ways in which Lutherans subsequently forgot or ignored this persecution and have continued to describe Anabaptists in misleading and damaging ways. - Lutherans Seek Forgiveness for Persecution of Anabaptists

 

[rockytopva]

In the statement, titled "Action on the Legacy of Lutheran Persecution of Anabaptists," the assembly repented for violent persecution of Anabaptists and for the ways in which Lutheran reformers supported persecutions with theological arguments.

The statement asks for forgiveness "from God and from our Mennonite sisters and brothers" for past wrongdoings and the ways in which Lutherans subsequently forgot or ignored this persecution and have continued to describe Anabaptists in misleading and damaging ways. - Lutherans Seek Forgiveness for Persecution of Anabaptists

And John Calvin describing the Anabaptist in misleading and damaging ways. Here is a list of the name calling....

1. Called their doctrine a bottomless bit
2. Accused them as being a canker, differing from all other sects of heretics.
3. Accused them of foolish and false opinions
4. Called their doctrine "Wicked"
5. Accused them of being, "full of wicked & pernicious errours"
6. Accused them as a "sect is a mass of such foolish & beastly opinions, as the like cannot be found, insomuch that it is wonder how creatures which bear the figure of a man, can be so clean without sense & reason, as to suffer themselves so to be deceived, & fall into fantasies more than brutish."
7. Called their opinions, "Devilish"
8. Called their doctrine, "Filthy"
9. Accused them "to mingle God so with the Devil that it should not be discerned between the one and the other,"
10. And "to the end that their villainy should not be perceived, lest we should have them in horror and execration."
11. Accused them of making men, "Brute beasts"
12. Invited, "they which be good shall know the desperate impudency, and so withdraw themselves, & fly from them, as from poison."
13. Called them "poor fantasticals"
14. Called them, "children in malice, and not in age"
15. Recommended their excommunication from the church.
16. Recommended that "after he hath been twice secretly warned, ought to be openly chastised, or excommunicated"
17. Says. "For in saying that he which sinneth by ignorance, and not by his own will, ought to be cast out, they do declare, as they do openly teach and maintain, that if a man do sin willingly, he shall never obtain forgiveness of his sin, because that all voluntary sins, after their fantasy, are sins against the Holy Ghost, and irremissible. I say that this opinion is an execrable blasphemy against the grace of God, and a false doctrine very pernicious to drive all poor souls to despair. As I have seen the experience in some, which were for a time seduced to this wicked sect."
18. Indirectly accused them of, "Mocking God"
19. Recommends death, "We agree that the temporal sword is an ordinance of God, besides the perfection of Christ. So the princes & superiours of the world are ordained to punish the wicked, & to put them to death. But in the perfection of Christ, excommunication is the utmost pain, and not corporal death."
20. Says, "What Devil constraineth these frantic men to make this addition, that the Magistrates in serving God, are shut out from the company of Christian men? Which thing is not done to the hangman for dogs, by their own confession."

And I only made it half way through the discourse (TrueCovenanter.com: A Short Instruction for to arm all good Christian people against the pestiferous errours of the common sect of Anabaptists.).

I say, there was no more villain alive worse than John Calvin! At least the Lutherans repented, and after reading this discourse an apology is deserved of the Calvinist also!

 

[thatbrian]

To define the Anabaptist....

"Anabaptists are Christians who believe that baptism is valid only when the candidate confesses his or her faith in Christ and wants to be baptized." - Anabaptism - Wikipedia


" I have never taught Anabaptism.... But the right baptism of Christ, which is preceded by teaching and oral confession of faith, I teach, and say that infant baptism is a robbery of the right baptism of Christ." — Hubmaier, Balthasar (1526), Short apology

Anabaptists were heavily and long persecuted starting in the 16th century by both Magisterial Protestants and Roman Catholics, largely because of their interpretation of scripture which put them at odds with official state church interpretations and with government.

The Lutherans have since did the right thing and apologized to the Anabaptist for the persecutions waged against them. You would never, due to the high level of Calvinistic ego, get an apology from them!

Lutherans reconcile with Mennonites 500 years after bloody persecution | Culture| Arts, music and lifestyle reporting from Germany | DW | 26.07.2010


Bishop Mark S. Hanson doing the right thing and apologizing to the Anabaptist, again, something a Calvinist would never do. If I would ever meet the Bishop Mark S. Hanson would tell him that was a very decent thing to do and I take my hat off to him!

Metro Lutheran | Lutheran church builds bridges, works toward healing with Mennonite neighbors

Are you a Lutheran?

 

[Rippon]

And John Calvin describing the Anabaptist in misleading and damaging ways. Here is a list of the name calling....

Calvin was not aware of the diversity within the Anabaptists. He was dealing with the worst examples.

19. Recommends death, "We agree that the temporal sword is an ordinance of God, besides the perfection of Christ. So the princes & superiours of the world are ordained to punish the wicked, & to put them to death. But in the perfection of Christ, excommunication is the utmost pain, and not corporal death."

Do you read what you post? 'but in the perfection of Christ, excommunication is the utmost pain, and not corporal death.

I say, there was no more villain alive worse than John Calvin!

You revel in hyperbole.

Honestly, with actual evil men in history you would rank Calvin as the worst? You are incredibly naïve or have an evil agenda.

Those 20 points are not examples of playing nice, but wicked?! No way. You'll have to do better.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe both Martin Luther and John Calvin started out with good intentions, but really got cold and hateful in their writings as they would age. The both of them would also suffer health problems and did not at all die in peace.

 

[Rippon]

I believe both Martin Luther and John Calvin started out with good intentions, but really got cold and hateful in their writings as they would age. The both of them would also suffer health problems

Calvin was the milder of the two. Luther has been described variously as a raging volcano or as a bull in a China shop. Calvin though impatient and curt at times was a rather gentle man considering.

and did not at all die in peace.

Stay away from crazy websites.

They both died in peace. Read about Calvin's last days from sources other than hateful websites that distort history.

 

[utilyan]

John Calvin would have burnt everyone on this thread on the stake.

But he seemed to have soft spot for children.

Read his institutes, he was for child baptism and follows a hereditary election.



Most folks here wouldn't agree with Anabaptist because the were not based on "faith alone".



No body was clean not even Martin Luther:

On the Jews and Their Lies
On the Jews and Their Lies - Wikipedia

Martin Luther and antisemitism - Wikipedia

• "First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …"
• "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
• "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them."
• "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …"
• "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …"
• "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …"
• "Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …"

--Martin Luther


I also doubt anyone on this thread would kill anyone else here over what they believe.

I'm as guilty for what John Calvin did , Martin Luther did, as anyone else in the world.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe both Martin Luther and John Calvin started out with good intentions, but really got cold and hateful in their writings as they would age. The both of them would also suffer health problems and did not at all die in peace.

Luther had been suffering from ill health for years, including Ménière's disease, vertigo, fainting, tinnitus, and a cataract in one eye. From 1531 to 1546 his health deteriorated further. The years of struggle with Rome, the antagonisms with and among his fellow reformers, and the scandal that ensued from the bigamy of Philip I, Landgrave of Hesse incident, in which Luther had played a leading role, all may have contributed. In 1536, he began to suffer from kidney and bladder stones, arthritis, and an ear infection ruptured an ear drum. In December 1544, he began to feel the effects of angina.

His poor physical health made him short-tempered and even harsher in his writings and comments. His wife Katharina was overheard saying, "Dear husband, you are too rude," and he responded, "They are teaching me to be rude."

 

[rockytopva]

I believe both Martin Luther and John Calvin started out with good intentions, but really got cold and hateful in their writings as they would age. The both of them would also suffer health problems and did not at all die in peace.

Calvin, at times, could be quite irritable, but much of this can be attributed to his ill health. He was plagued with constant headaches which hardly ever left him. The pain was so intense that many nights he could not sleep. He also had some kind of disease of the trachea which, when he spoke too much, caused him to spit blood. Several attacks of pleurisy prepared the way for consumption, of which he finally died. He had acute hemorrhoids, the pain of which was unbearably increased by an internal abscess that would not heal. Several times intermittent fever laid him low, sapping his strength and constantly reducing it. He had gallstones and kidney stones in addition to stomach cramps and wicked intestinal influenzas. To top it all off, he had acute arthritis. In one of his letters to a friend he said, “If only my condition were not a constant death struggle.” Another Side of John Calvin