John Gerstner's Unbiblical Nonsense!

[Reformed1689]

This is what John Gerstner, who was a leading Reformed theologian, said about people who end up in hell. His response to a question from a student, is totally unbiblical and goes against what the Holy Bible actually teaches. The question that I have, is this unbiblical nonsense actually "Reformed" teaching?

Event #2: One student asked Dr. Gerstner, “How can I be happy in heaven if I’m aware that one of my loved ones is in hell?” Dr. Gerstner responded: “Don’t you know that when you are in heaven you will be so sanctified that you could look at your own mother in hell and rejoice in the display of the justice of God.” And Sproul burst out laughing, informing Dr. Gerstner that his statement was absolutely ridiculous.

2010 Ligonier National Conference - R.C. Sproul (II)

There is not even ONE verse in the entire Bible that says what Gerstner taught! This is one of the reasons why people in this world are put off the Christian Faith!

This is what God says in His Word!

"Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" (Ezekiel 18:23)

"Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33:11)

Conveniently you took the Sproul quote out of context. The article explains.

Furthermore, the Ezekiel passage literally has nothing to do with what Gerstner said.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Conveniently you took the Sproul quote out of context. The article explains.

Furthermore, the Ezekiel passage literally has nothing to do with what Gerstner said.

WHY do the so called Reformed hate the so called non elect and try to force the Bible to agree with their HERESY on salvation? To say that Jesus's death is somehow limited is an insult to the Lord and a distortion of the Gospel

 

[Tsalagi]

Read what I wrote. I am not saying Gerstner's postulation is proved in scripture. I am saying that your verses don't disprove Gerstner either. You misuse Ezekiel as it says nothing about hell.
Since you are now making an assertion, it is upon you to prove your assertion. Your two verses from Ezekiel do not prove your assertion, nor do they disprove Gerstner.

Let me ask this:
Is God just in sending sinners to hell?

What you seem to be missing here is not God's perfect justice in judging unbelievers in the lake of fire. Nobody here questions that. The Ezekiel passages tell us that God takes no pleasure in such judgment.

For Gerstner and others to claim that believers will be so "holy" that we will rejoice at a judgment in which God Himself takes no pleasure is a concept of human manufacture. It does not come from Scripture.

 

[Tsalagi]

the Ezekiel passage literally has nothing to do with what Gerstner said.

Nonsense, it has everything to do with it. The point is "rejoicing" at the judgment of others. God takes no pleasure in such judgment, why would anyone partaking of His holiness through sanctification do so?

 

[Reformed1689]

Nonsense, it has everything to do with it. The point is "rejoicing" at the judgment of others. God takes no pleasure in such judgment, why would anyone partaking of His holiness through sanctification do so?

You are twisting what Gerstner said. He said they rejoice in the justice of God. He did not say rejoice in their punishment and pain.

 

[AustinC]

Genesis 18.25

What about it?

Is God just? It's a yes or no answer. Why can't you answer the question?

 

[AustinC]

The Bible's reason why people go to hell

International Standard Version John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

sbw, do you deny the existence of hell and that God casts sinners in hell?

Finally, you never answered my question.
Is God just in sending sinners to hell?
Let's shorten that question.
Is God just?

 

[AustinC]

WHY do the so called Reformed hate the so called non elect and try to force the Bible to agree with their HERESY on salvation? To say that Jesus's death is somehow limited is an insult to the Lord and a distortion of the Gospel

Strawman.
No one does what you are asserting. The problem here is with you and your amazingly poor observation.

 

[Reformed1689]

WHY do the so called Reformed hate the so called non elect

Who said that?

 

[AustinC]

What you seem to be missing here is not God's perfect justice in judging unbelievers in the lake of fire. Nobody here questions that. The Ezekiel passages tell us that God takes no pleasure in such judgment.

For Gerstner and others to claim that believers will be so "holy" that we will rejoice at a judgment in which God Himself takes no pleasure is a concept of human manufacture. It does not come from Scripture.

No one, including Gerstner, disagrees. Gerstner's answer wasn't regarding this specific topic, which is why sbw is convoluting two different topics and attempting to merge them as one. The Ezekiel verses do not address the topic sbw brings up.

 

[Reformed1689]

No one, including Gerstner, disagrees. Gerstner's answer wasn't regarding this specific topic, which is why sbw is convoluting two different topics and attempting to merge them as one. The Ezekiel verses do not address the topic sbw brings up.

That's the problem with prooftexting.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Strawman.
No one does what you are asserting. The problem here is with you and your amazingly poor observation.

God says in John 3 that He SO LOVES the entire human race. Reformed say no

God says that He wants all wicked people to repent and turn from their ways because He has no pleasure in their going to hell, as in Ezekiel 18 and 33. The reformed say no.

So it is reformed theology against the Word of God!

 

[Reformed1689]

God says in John 3 that He SO LOVES the entire human race. Reformed say no

No, again, you misrepresent what we have said. At this point I just have to believe you are a liar.

 

[SavedByGrace]

No, again, you misrepresent what we have said. At this point I just have to believe you are a liar.

Why did the early church till Augustine not believe in the nonsense like limited atonement. That's over 300 years!!!

 

[Tsalagi]

You are twisting what Gerstner said. He said they rejoice in the justice of God. He did not say rejoice in their punishment and pain.

There is no distance between the two. Gerstner's occasion for celebrating God's justice is staring at loved ones suffering in the lake of fire.

 

[robycop3]

God said the former things on earth won't be remembered, nor come to mind for the saved. Thus, I don't believe we'll remember any relatives or friends who will die unsaved.

But I DO believe we'll be aware of the existence of hell, and its purpose. We just won't know who's in it besides Satan & his angels.

 

[Tsalagi]

No one, including Gerstner, disagrees. Gerstner's answer wasn't regarding this specific topic, which is why sbw is convoluting two different topics and attempting to merge them as one. The Ezekiel verses do not address the topic sbw brings up.

The words are in plain English. Ezekiel quotes God saying He takes no pleasure in judging the wicked. Gerstner claims we will be so holy that we will rejoice in it.

 

[SavedByGrace]

God said the former things on earth won't be remembered, nor come to mind for the saved. Thus, I don't believe we'll remember any relatives or friends who will die unsaved.

But I DO believe we'll be aware of the existence of hell, and its purpose. We just won't know who's in it besides Satan & his angels.

I can't believe that the latter can be true as this would remove any joy. There is no need for us to know of this anyway

 

[Tsalagi]

No, again, you misrepresent what we have said. At this point I just have to believe you are a liar.

It is lamentable that discussion with Reformed types so often elicits this type of ad hominem when the scriptural going gets tough.
Reformed theology says God only loves the elect, not the world, in direct conflict with passages like John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2. Nobody here is "lying" about that.

 

[Reformed1689]

Why did the early church till Augustine not believe in the nonsense like limited atonement. That's over 300 years!!!

Simple, that isn't the case at all and you are using a classic debunked argument. Calvinism in the Early Church (The Doctrines of Grace taught by the Early Church Fathers) | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind