To God, I am already perfect, but for me, that will happen when i am in a glorified state, at rapture/Second coming of christ!
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John MacArthur is addressing Catholic heresies
- Thread starter annsni
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To God, I am already perfect, but for me, that will happen when i am in a glorified state, at rapture/Second coming of christ!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
To God you are not already perfect. You are forgiven and washed clean. But you still have attitudes, dispositions, thought processes, all that need to be sanctified throughout your life.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Ok. Now that we are on the same page. Let me ask you some questions. Seeing that the book of Revelation says
Can we agree that the word for unclean used is koinon which implies spiritual corruption? Also can we agree that nothing which is corrupt gets into heaven? Thus attitudes, modes of thinking, desires, etc anything that is disordered is not permitted into heaven? Do you agree this is true?
paul said that we are right now in God sighted seated in high palces with Christ!
God sees and know all things, so to Him I have already been perfected/risen and glorified, but as to me, that still has to happen in "real time!"
Sure, but......what is missing in this conversation is the word redemption.
Romans 8 tells us that we are all waiting for redemption. I Peter 1 tells us the same thing. Our salvation is secured. Our redemption (perfecting of our bodies and mind) is yet to be seen.
OK, it is possible then that we are using different terms to describe similar if not the same things: you say 'redemption', others speak of 'glorification', Catholics speak of 'purging'; we are all talking about the need for us to become 'holy as God is holy' I believe.
My question to you, then, who use the words 'redemption' or 'glorification' is this: what happens if this process is incomplete at death?
My question to you, then, who use the words 'redemption' or 'glorification' is this: what happens if this process is incomplete at death?
Hmmm....I don't buy that bit of eisegesis which owes far more to Luther's naughty allein that he scribbled in the margin of his Bible, rather than to the plain meaning of Scripture itself.
Not quite: as it has been explained to me, it is not so much 'co-operation' as 'non-resistance'. And the works are works of grace and of God, not of man. See Augustine of Hippo et al.
Just to point out here that Arminian evangelicals woudl also deny eternal security; does this mean you are a Calvinist?
Your logic is flawed here; this statement does not flow from the previous one. Catholics would affirm justification by faith, just not by faith alone, paradixically because they would say that this places too much reliance on man having that faith in the first place rather than reliance on the grace of God.
And a Catholic would agree with all of that.
Agreed but you haven't answered how that perfection is to be achieved. You, like others, use terms such as 'glorification' and 'redemption' without definition. Please define what you mean by them and how they are effected, particularly if not complete at death.
All agreed, but this relates 'only'* to how God views us, not how we actaully are. It's that aspect which is under discussion.
Of course receiving is a work! If I give something to my son, he has a choice: take it or leave it. If he takes it, he holds out his hand, receives it from my hands and takes it unto himself. He could ignore my oustretched hands bearing my gift and walk away. So he has to actively do something to have it: receive.
The RCC is a salvation by works belief system, they state that the sacraments are needed for salvation. Here is what the catechism says about it.
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior. (1257, 2003, 460)
this is what the Bible tells us in Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Romans 3:19-26
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
RCC teaching is in direct conflict to what the Bible says.
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior. (1257, 2003, 460)
this is what the Bible tells us in Galatians 2:16
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Romans 3:19-26
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
RCC teaching is in direct conflict to what the Bible says.
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No, it's in conflict with what you say the Bible says. Massive difference.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Good post, Matt.
First, Luther has nothing to do with this. I neither use his notes, commentaries, nor translation. If I use the Greek, I go to the Greek that preceded him. Therefore your red herring has nothing to do with this.
I was using Romans 5:1 for example:
Romans 5:1 δικαιωθεντες ουν εκ πιστεως ειρηνην εχομεν προς τον θεον δια του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου
--ek pistews. That is the phrase that means "by faith." One cannot add anything to that phrase. It means "by faith alone," not "by faith plus baptism" or any other "plus." There is no plus sign. It is by faith alone. Luther has nothing to do with anything.
I never consulted Augustine. But I hear TS use the phrase "cooperate in love" until I get sick of the phrase. Face it. The RCC is a religion based on works. If one does not "DO" they will not make it to heaven. They must "keep" the sacraments for example, "keep" going to mass; "keep" confessing their sins to the priest, "be" baptized; etc. All of those are "works," things a man does. It is a religion of works not grace. In these things they "cooperate" with God. In Biblical salvation God has done it all.
No. I am a non-Cal who believes in eternal security.
If it is not by faith alone it is not by faith at all. When it is not by faith alone, then it is by faith plus works. The Bible speaks against that:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--Clearly salvation is not of works; it is not of anything that you can do; not of yourself.
But he doesn't. He believes his works are meritorious. The entire RCC system is a system of works. No works; no salvation.
One of the most important verses in the Bible is John 3:3, "you must be born again."
Verse 5 says: You must be born of water and of the Spirit.
The RCC wrongly interprets "water" to mean baptism, thus relegating the doctrine of regeneration to baptismal regeneration which the Bible does not teach. Baptism does not equal salvation. Water is not magic that can save your soul.
This demonstrates that they do not believe "salvation is all of God," but they must do their part. They must baptize. Christ's blood was not sufficient enough to cover all their sins, they must baptize to do what Christ was not able to complete on the cross. Baptism = new birth. That is in the Catechism. And that is blasphemy.
I am redeemed the day that I put my trust in Christ. All my sins: past, present and future were put under the blood on that day. During this life I go through a process of sanctification. When I reach heaven I will be glorified, but not until then. The Bible states that "we wait for the redemption of our bodies." It won't happen on this earth. That does not leave room for purgatory as some wish to think.
To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord.
If I am saved, when I die I leave this sinful body behind and go straight to heaven. My sinful body stays here. To think that anything sinful is entering into heaven is nonsense. All those sins have been forgiven.
And that is what is important. That is why I am secure in Christ. That is why I have eternal salvation that I will never lose. Eternal means eternal; never can be lost. If it was lost it wouldn't be eternal and Christ would be a liar. Eternal cannot mean temporal.
Sin on this earth may cause a loss of fellowship, as disobedience of a child will cause a rift between father and son. But the father does not disown his son. Neither will the heavenly Father ever disown his children who have been born into his family.
Choosing between two things is not a work. I wish I could have a job that just required faith. Would you hire me and pay me for "faith"? Would you give me money to put my trust not just in God but in other things. Just to tell you that I trust this or that. Is that work? No.
Would you pay me because I receive your gifts?
Would you pay me because I earn the money, work for the money that you will give me at the end of the day for my labor? Hopefully. It is the law.
That is the difference that Paul explains in Romans 4:1-5.
the bible NEVER states that there are ANY external 'sacramental graces!" ALL of the Grace of God ever to be bestowed upon us is by/thru the Cross of yeshua, and when we have received him by faith, we are FULLY justified before the father!
We are clothed in chrsit, the father sees us as if jesus Himself standing before him, how much more cn ANYTHING add to that state?
Rome refuses to accept that ALL that God requires to be fully justified, made right in his sight is JUST believe upon the Lord Jesus Period...
They deny the heart of chrsitianity, the Cross of Christ!
First, Luther has nothing to do with this. I neither use his notes, commentaries, nor translation. If I use the Greek, I go to the Greek that preceded him. Therefore your red herring has nothing to do with this.
I was using Romans 5:1 for example:
Romans 5:1 δικαιωθεντες ουν εκ πιστεως ειρηνην εχομεν προς τον θεον δια του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου
--ek pistews. That is the phrase that means "by faith." One cannot add anything to that phrase. It means "by faith alone," not "by faith plus baptism" or any other "plus." There is no plus sign. It is by faith alone. Luther has nothing to do with anything.
I never consulted Augustine. But I hear TS use the phrase "cooperate in love" until I get sick of the phrase. Face it. The RCC is a religion based on works. If one does not "DO" they will not make it to heaven. They must "keep" the sacraments for example, "keep" going to mass; "keep" confessing their sins to the priest, "be" baptized; etc. All of those are "works," things a man does. It is a religion of works not grace. In these things they "cooperate" with God. In Biblical salvation God has done it all.
No. I am a non-Cal who believes in eternal security.
If it is not by faith alone it is not by faith at all. When it is not by faith alone, then it is by faith plus works. The Bible speaks against that:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--Clearly salvation is not of works; it is not of anything that you can do; not of yourself.
But he doesn't. He believes his works are meritorious. The entire RCC system is a system of works. No works; no salvation.
One of the most important verses in the Bible is John 3:3, "you must be born again."
Verse 5 says: You must be born of water and of the Spirit.
The RCC wrongly interprets "water" to mean baptism, thus relegating the doctrine of regeneration to baptismal regeneration which the Bible does not teach. Baptism does not equal salvation. Water is not magic that can save your soul.
This demonstrates that they do not believe "salvation is all of God," but they must do their part. They must baptize. Christ's blood was not sufficient enough to cover all their sins, they must baptize to do what Christ was not able to complete on the cross. Baptism = new birth. That is in the Catechism. And that is blasphemy.
I am redeemed the day that I put my trust in Christ. All my sins: past, present and future were put under the blood on that day. During this life I go through a process of sanctification. When I reach heaven I will be glorified, but not until then. The Bible states that "we wait for the redemption of our bodies." It won't happen on this earth. That does not leave room for purgatory as some wish to think.
To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord.
If I am saved, when I die I leave this sinful body behind and go straight to heaven. My sinful body stays here. To think that anything sinful is entering into heaven is nonsense. All those sins have been forgiven.
And that is what is important. That is why I am secure in Christ. That is why I have eternal salvation that I will never lose. Eternal means eternal; never can be lost. If it was lost it wouldn't be eternal and Christ would be a liar. Eternal cannot mean temporal.
Sin on this earth may cause a loss of fellowship, as disobedience of a child will cause a rift between father and son. But the father does not disown his son. Neither will the heavenly Father ever disown his children who have been born into his family.
Choosing between two things is not a work. I wish I could have a job that just required faith. Would you hire me and pay me for "faith"? Would you give me money to put my trust not just in God but in other things. Just to tell you that I trust this or that. Is that work? No.
Would you pay me because I receive your gifts?
Would you pay me because I earn the money, work for the money that you will give me at the end of the day for my labor? Hopefully. It is the law.
That is the difference that Paul explains in Romans 4:1-5.
Either Jesus death provoded for full justification, or it did nothing to aid us!
Rome wants to give it lip service, but still have us get part of the glory/work of getting us saved by God!
You and I disagree between calvinism/Arminian theologies, but BOTH of us affirm that its grace alone which we receive by/thru faith alone, that is the Gospel, NOT the mixture of works/grace Rome teaches!
A person who holds fully what the RCC theology teaches concerning salvation cannot agree with the truth that God has fully and freely justified us before God by the cross, for IF they held to that cardinal truth and affirm it, their entire system of sacramentalism/Priesthhood/Apostolic succession etc woould come crashing down !
This is why they were so vehement protesting agains tht ecalvins/Luthers of the time of the reformation!
This is why they were so vehement protesting agains tht ecalvins/Luthers of the time of the reformation!
Quite a bit: a starter would be 'Do this in memory of Me.'
Then whence 'alone'. It's not in the Bible, except where it says that we are NOT saved by faith alone (James 2:14-26, to give the context).
You say 'red herring', I say 'foundational to your case'.
Yes, I know.
I'm also aware of the Greek.
I'm aware it doesn't contain the word μόνον (alone)
OK, let's compare and contrast your two immediately following statements:
and
There you go! You just did add something to it: the word 'alone'. And the tragedy is that you can't even see what you're doing there!
Yes, he absolutely does, since he made exactly the same error that you just did!!!
Come on, be reasonable: if the Holy Spirit had meant there to be an 'alone' there, He would have put it there, just as He did in James 2:24
I'm intrigued! How do you work that one?No. I am a non-Cal who believes in eternal security.
Then please explain how you are 'glorified' and what you understand this term to mean
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God. It means "by faith alone." It does not say that, but it means that. I am not adding anything by telling you the meaning. Let me give you an example by way of illustration.
In the engine of a car (like mine) the fuel is gas (petrol). If any other fuel is used the car will be ruined. It runs on gas alone. The word "alone" is not necessary for me to use every time I tell you: "My car runs on gas (alone); others run on diesel (alone). See the redundancy?
However, if I say my car runs on gas alone the typical Catholic will jump in with all kinds of red herrings and say: No it doesn't. It runs on four wheels, engine oil, transmission oil, four cylinders, etc., etc. These are frivolous red herrings. My engine runs on gas alone! That is the only fuel that it uses.
The engine is comparable to salvation. It will get you to your destination. You can't get there without an engine. The fuel is likened to faith. There is only one engine and that is Christ. There is only one faith. I cannot put water into the engine or it will be destroyed. Only petrol/gas will keep the engine running. If it is mixed with diesel or works it will be destroyed. It is a high performance engine. The fuel is faith. It is that simple. Faith and faith alone saves. It is the only thing that will operate the engine.
But what about the wheels? The wheels will get you to your destination. Your destination is glorification.
And the engine oil, transmission oil, cylinders, brakes, and all the other working parts of the vehicles are those things that make up the Christian walk. They are the things that we must do on a day to day basis as we wind our way through this life on our way to our final destination. They are the working parts of our Christian life. We can't get through life without prayer, reading the Word, witnessing, etc.
We can't even start the Christian life if we don't first put fuel in the engine. That is where it all begins. You need an engine (Christ). You need fuel (faith). Without that you have nothing. The engine is run by gas alone; not gas plus water or gas plus diesel, but gas alone. Did I really have to say "gas alone"?