JM is rather direct. I share that personality trait, so I'm quite comfortable with it. There is a fine line a pastor needs to tread; a line between an uncompromising stand on truth and a gentle hand of compassion. JM's preaching style is more of the former. His church seems to be the better for it. His broadcast ministry allows for people to take him or leave him. I'm turned off by Charles Stanley's preaching style (never mind my theological disagreements), although I realize many people enjoy listening to him. To each his own, I guess.
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- Thread starter evangelist6589
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JM is rather direct. I share that personality trait, so I'm quite comfortable with it. There is a fine line a pastor needs to tread; a line between an uncompromising stand on truth and a gentle hand of compassion. JM's preaching style is more of the former. His church seems to be the better for it. His broadcast ministry allows for people to take him or leave him. I'm turned off by Charles Stanley's preaching style (never mind my theological disagreements), although I realize many people enjoy listening to him. To each his own, I guess.
And I don't see how you can believe God created people predestined for Hell when He gave them no chance at salvation.
psalms109:31
Active Member
His hand has not stopped reaching out to His people and He does want us to still reach them. I do praise God that He has made room for me who is not His people to be included with His people a dog who begged at His table and now calls me one of His own.
25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
26 and,
“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[j]
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”
29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:
“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”
Israel’s Unbelief
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
26 and,
“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[j]
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”
29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:
“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”
Israel’s Unbelief
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
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SolaSaint
Well-Known Member
What if they didn't want salvation? God is God and we are not. A guy named Isaiah once said that.
Roger and Wilco!
No, we should take up this misuse of scripture with Calvinists. Calvinists use this passage in Romans 9 to support Unconditional Election when it does no such thing.
Paul is referencing Jeremiah chapter 18 here;
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
Paul was paraphrasing Jer 18:6 in Romans 9:20-21. God is not saying he unconditionally elects some men to salvation, and unconditionally chooses to pass by other men as Calvinism falsely teaches. No, God is saying he will have mercy on those who have faith and are obedient, and he will punish those who do not believe and are rebellious.
Calvinism absolutely misrepresents Paul's intention quoting Jeremiah. Paul was not teaching Unconditional Election whatsoever in this passage in Romans 9. In fact, Paul was teaiching the exact opposite, that God shows mercy to those who have faith and are obedient, and will pass by those who do not believe and are rebellious.
Calvinism always argues from a feigned position of superiority, as though only they rightly divide the word, but it is clear they do not rightly divide the word of God and falsely misrepresent it. This is a perfect example of such a misrepresentation.
Amen! :godisgood:
Romans 9 clearly displays God's sovereignty in redemption. God is the potter in Romans 9. He creates vessels for honor and dishonor (v. 21). He displays mercy to some and hardens others (v. 18). He shuts the mouth of those who would dispute His crown right to sovereignly choose (v. 20). God endures vessels of wrath for the sake of vessels of mercy (vs. 22-23).
There is no air of superiority in confessing these truths. It is what it is. No where in Romans 9 does God say he will have mercy on those who have faith. It does say in v. 23 that He will have mercy on those He has prepared beforehand for that very purpose. God's preparation was made in eternity, before anyone had exercised saving faith.
There is no air of superiority in confessing these truths. It is what it is. No where in Romans 9 does God say he will have mercy on those who have faith. It does say in v. 23 that He will have mercy on those He has prepared beforehand for that very purpose. God's preparation was made in eternity, before anyone had exercised saving faith.
Let's for the moment just take what you have at face value. What problem would their be?
Are these people "predestined for Hell" deserving of hell?
Yes according to the Bible. We are all guilty of our sin.
So, then is God under obligation to save anyone? No, we all deserve hell. Every one of us. So this argument doesn't hold any biblical water since these people that are "predestined for Hell" deserve hell.
Now, the "no chance at salvation" isn't true. The Bible says that anyone that believes will be saved. Everyone that is in hell is there because they rejected Jesus Christ. If they had believed, they would have been saved.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Paul tells us the reason why they are headed for destruction vessel for destruction and it isn't some man made idea the answer is found in the end. Our old self who we once were will die, but in Christ our new creation, us being born again, born from above by His word that came down from heaven, in Him will live for eternity. That they can be changed by God by turning to Him instead of works, but faith in God through Jesus Christ
Romans 9:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.” .
2 Timothy 2 :
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
I love that scripture about those for honor and those for dishonor, because it is scripture not an excuse. Paul tells things not to turn people away from God, but to turn them to God through Jesus Christ. No one will really understand Paul until we realize that. It is funny my children desire to do things when you tell them don't and you can't.
Paul spent his life preaching the Gospel to the ends of the earth that he knew of to bring people to Jesus so that he might save some of them, not to convince them they can't. There is no one perfect praise God, because Jesus came to save sinners and i am the worst. No one seeks God, praise God that He sends us out to seek them. Our Sovereign God takes no pleasure in the death of no one, but rather them to repent and live
I am told to encourage people not turn away from the living God
Romans 9:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.” .
2 Timothy 2 :
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
I love that scripture about those for honor and those for dishonor, because it is scripture not an excuse. Paul tells things not to turn people away from God, but to turn them to God through Jesus Christ. No one will really understand Paul until we realize that. It is funny my children desire to do things when you tell them don't and you can't.
Paul spent his life preaching the Gospel to the ends of the earth that he knew of to bring people to Jesus so that he might save some of them, not to convince them they can't. There is no one perfect praise God, because Jesus came to save sinners and i am the worst. No one seeks God, praise God that He sends us out to seek them. Our Sovereign God takes no pleasure in the death of no one, but rather them to repent and live
I am told to encourage people not turn away from the living God
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If they are deserving of damnation, then it is not unconditional, yet Calvinists claim Romans 9 supports Unconditional Election. Nothing could be further from the truth, Paul is referencing Jeremiah 18 where he says he will have mercy on those who have faith and are obedient, and he will punish those who do not believe and are rebellious.
God is under obligation to keep his promise, and he has promised to save those who repent and trust in Jesus.
Calvinist play on words. Calvinism teaches that God only regenerates a certain elect, and only these persons have the ability to believe and be saved. Those who are not elect, those whom God passes by are utterly unable to believe. So, it is perfectly accurate to say they have no chance whatsoever to be saved.
You try to use clever arguments to argue anyone can be saved, when that is impossible if Calvinism were really true. Thank God Calvinism is not true and that any man can be saved.
SovereignMercy
Member
X2. Good point.
But Calvinists believe God WILL NOT call some of them, therefore not even giving them the chance to believe, therefore condemning them for not accepting something (Jesus Christ) when He created them with no power to do so! :BangHead: Ridiculous.
SovereignMercy
Member
Another good post that cannot be argued with. Even faith is the work of God.
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
As far as what should be fair game for discussion before marriage for believers. Everything. My wife went to PCC. She got her BS and MRN there. She was a one point Biblicist and I am a five point Biblicist, she uses the KJV, I use the NKJV. We met at a summer camp and as we became friends we started having devotions together every morning, reading from the Bible and one of Spurgeon's devotionals. We discussed every biblical topic we could think of and came to agreement on all of them eventually. She became my best friend first of all, and has now been my wife for over 22 years. Now we do like different kinds of music, different kinds of books and have many different personal likes, etc. But believing the same things biblically has been the foundation and stabilizer for many trials and human failings on both sides. We also believe the biblical teaching of no divorce, and no remarriage except for the death of a spouse. I would read up on the Jack Chick stuff if I were you. He is a heretic.
SovereignMercy
Member
You mean biblicists who believe the Founder of the Faith and His apostles.
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Notice the LORD our God doesn't call everyone.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
The truth is the impotent, little jesus you like so many around the world believe in, is not the Jesus that the Bible speaks of. Your jesus runs around crying and begging everyone to believe him because he's trying to save everyone, but of course, failing miserably, because he has to fight your omnipotent God called "Free-Will".
But you have that wonderful Thomas Jeffersonesque bible that has cut out all the passages that disagree with your sovereign God "Free-Will" so have fun with it in this life, because you'll certainly regret it in the next... unless Jesus saves you like He has me and so many others.
We became volunteers because of His free will. We never had such, we were deluded, but now we are free.
Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; in the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth.
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It is not a good point, Calvinists completely misinterpret and misuse the OT scripture Paul is quoting in Romans 9. Paul is not teaching Unconditional Election whatsoever, Paul was making reference to Jeremiah chapter 18. In Jeremiah 18 God says that if he has spoken against a nation, to pull it down and destroy it, if they repent of their sin, then God will repent of the evil he intended toward them. Then God says if he has spoken good of a nation to build it up, if they depart from him and do evil, God will repent of the good wherewith he would have benefited them.
These are not unconditional promises, they are conditioned upon whether a nation has faith and is obedient toward God or not.
Yet not one Calvinist scholar teaches this passage properly, but inserts their doctrine of Unconditional Election into the passage.
Paul is explaining why God has turned from the Jews to the Gentiles. It was not unconditional, it was because the Jews had turned from God in unbelief, while the Gentiles had turned to God in faith. This in fact is the summary of the chapter.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Paul is speaking of nations in Romans 9, and is teaching that the Gentiles have attained righteousness because they believed God, while the Jews have not attained righteousness because they did not seek it by faith, but by works.
This is not unconditional whatsoever!
If you want to believe error, that is your choice, but Calvinism completely misinterprets and abuses Romans 9.
glazer1972
Member
Ask her and hold off marriage till she's no longer afraid to offend you.
