John Piper

[robustheologian]

Please link to where this question was answered.

Here...

Israel is held responsible for their rebellion in the same way Pilate, Herod, the Romans, and the Jews who crucified Jesus are guilty...even though it was predestined by God (Acts 4:27-28). So why would Jesus ask his Father to forgive those who tortured them if their torturing was predestined by his Father? (Acts 2:23)

Pilate, Herod, the Romans, and the Jews' guilt confirms in Scripture that God (the sovereign) can hold people responsible for something He ordained them to do.

I later responded here...

...the answer to my question is the answer to yours. The same logical processes you use to make sense of Herod, Pilate, and the Jews and Gentiles who crucified Jesus being guilty is what should be used to see the guilt in Israel being rebellion.

It's like Joseph's brothers and the evil they did to Joseph. They were responsible yet Joseph let them know in Genesis 50 that what happened to him was God's doing.

There are instances where Scripture condemns people for acts that were ordained by God.

You're able to grasp that those who crucified Jesus were guilty even though Acts tells that they were predestined to do what they did.

You're able to grasp that Judas Iscariot was destined to betray Jesus yet Jesus places guilt on Judas.

You're able to grasp that Joseph's brothers wanted to do the evil that they did to Joseph and are so responsible, yet Joseph later claims this was God's doing.

You're able to grasp that Moses was sent BY GOD to Pharaoh to get him to let Israel go, yet IT WAS GOD who prevented Pharaoh from letting His people go...and God rightly punished Pharaoh for it.

So you should then be able to grasp that though God has decreed Israel's rebellion, Israel is still guilty of rebellion.

The is no Scripture that declares someone innocent because his conduct was not totally free (in this example undetermined). Scripture even contradicts the notion that only uncaused or uncoerced decisions are morally responsible.

Now I will say brother after going through these posts I can see the apparent contradiction you may be talking about. You ask how can God punish us for something He ordained us to do. The only answer (that I have and that I think is possible) to that question is because He can. That's what it means to be sovereign. But we must not be like those who Paul anticipated would object to his discourse on God's sovereignty in Romans 9.

Romans 9:19-23
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here...


Pilate, Herod, the Romans, and the Jews' guilt confirms in Scripture that God (the sovereign) can hold people responsible for something He ordained them to do.

I later responded here...


There are instances where Scripture condemns people for acts that were ordained by God.

You're able to grasp that those who crucified Jesus were guilty even though Acts tells that they were predestined to do what they did.

You're able to grasp that Judas Iscariot was destined to betray Jesus yet Jesus places guilt on Judas.

You're able to grasp that Joseph's brothers wanted to do the evil that they did to Joseph and are so responsible, yet Joseph later claims this was God's doing.

You're able to grasp that Moses was sent BY GOD to Pharaoh to get him to let Israel go, yet IT WAS GOD who prevented Pharaoh from letting His people go...and God rightly punished Pharaoh for it.

So you should then be able to grasp that though God has decreed Israel's rebellion, Israel is still guilty of rebellion.

The is no Scripture that declares someone innocent because his conduct was not totally free (in this example undetermined). Scripture even contradicts the notion that only uncaused or uncoerced decisions are morally responsible.

Now I will say brother after going through these posts I can see the apparent contradiction you may be talking about. You ask how can God punish us for something He ordained us to do. The only answer (that I have and that I think is possible) to that question is because He can. That's what it means to be sovereign. But we must not be like those who Paul anticipated would object to his discourse on God's sovereignty in Romans 9.

This is just too good not to :thumbs:

 

[Van]

Assertions devoid of scriptural support are like a reflection on a lake when the wind comes up.

Did God hold Pilate, Herod, the Romans, and the Jews of being guilty of carrying out His predestined plan of Christ's crucification? Nope. Were the people involved well chosen as they were sinners willing to sin all the more? Yes.

There are no examples in scripture of God condemning people for acts compelled by God's predestination. None, zip, nada.

The whole premise is a fiction of the highest order.

God does allow people to do evil because the action will further His purpose and plan. This is basic.

 

[agedman]

Assertions devoid of scriptural support are like a reflection on a lake when the wind comes up.

Did God hold Pilate, Herod, the Romans, and the Jews of being guilty of carrying out His predestined plan of Christ's crucification? Nope. Were the people involved well chosen as they were sinners willing to sin all the more? Yes.

There are no examples in scripture of God condemning people for acts compelled by God's predestination. None, zip, nada.

The whole premise is a fiction of the highest order.

God does allow people to do evil because the action will further His purpose and plan. This is basic.

So when Jeremiah states that Babylon, who God chose to punish Judah, would itself be punished by God for going too far, that is not the purposed plan of God?

Clearly that was a time in Scriptures in which God punished the people in which He compelled to act.

So your argument would fail for there is direct evidence from Scriptures which refute it.

 

[robustheologian]

Assertions devoid of scriptural support are like a reflection on a lake when the wind comes up.

Did God hold Pilate, Herod, the Romans, and the Jews of being guilty of carrying out His predestined plan of Christ's crucification? Nope. Were the people involved well chosen as they were sinners willing to sin all the more? Yes.

There are no examples in scripture of God condemning people for acts compelled by God's predestination. None, zip, nada.

The whole premise is a fiction of the highest order.

God does allow people to do evil because the action will further His purpose and plan. This is basic.

So you're saying Pilate, Herod, the Romans, and the Jews aren't responsible for Jesus' crucifixion??? Wow...that's a new low for you.

So I'm sure you think Pharaoh wasn't wrong for letting Israel go, and I'm sure you think Judas was an okay guy, and you would've pat Joseph's brothers on the back when they threw him in a pit while cheering "what you're doing is good, Joseph will thank you later".

Everyone please take heed to Van's "theology" so you can ignore accordingly.

 

[robustheologian]

So when Jeremiah states that Babylon, who God chose to punish Judah, would itself be punished by God for going too far, that is not the purposed plan of God?

Clearly that was a time in Scriptures in which God punished the people in which He compelled to act.

So your argument would fail for there is direct evidence from Scriptures which refute it.

All this is true...sadly he won't be compelled by Scripture.

 

[Van]

Assertions devoid of scriptural support are like a reflection on a lake when the wind comes up.

Did God hold Pilate, Herod, the Romans, and the Jews of being guilty of carrying out His predestined plan of Christ's crucification? Nope. Were the people involved well chosen as they were sinners willing to sin all the more? Yes.

There are no examples in scripture of God condemning people for acts compelled by God's predestination. None, zip, nada.

The whole premise is a fiction of the highest order.

God does allow people to do evil because the action will further His purpose and plan. This is basic.

So when Jeremiah states that Babylon, who God chose to punish Judah, would itself be punished by God for going too far, that is not the purposed plan of God?

Clearly that was a time in Scriptures in which God punished the people in which He compelled to act.

So your argument would fail for there is direct evidence from Scriptures which refute it.

Does scripture refute it? Nope. Was any scripture cited? Nope.
So a general claim, an assertion, without specifics is used to push a fiction. Go figure. BTW, Babylon was punished for "their iniquity" and for the work of "their hands." Thus the claim is a complete fiction. (See Jeremiah 25:12-14)

So you're saying Pilate, Herod, the Romans, and the Jews aren't responsible for Jesus' crucifixion??? Wow...that's a new low for you.

Yet another assertion, again with no reference to scripture. Go figure.

BTW, who does the bible say is responsible for Christ's crucification? God is!! Were the people chosen to carry out God's plan, well chosen, willing to sin? Yes. (See Acts 2:23)

 

[robustheologian]

Does scripture refute it? Nope. Was any scripture cited? Nope.
So a general claim, an assertion, without specifics is used to push a fiction. Go figure. BTW, Babylon was punished for "their iniquity" and for the work of "their hands." Thus the claim is a complete fiction. (See Jeremiah 25:12-14)

Yet another assertion, again with no reference to scripture. Go figure.

BTW, who does the bible say is responsible for Christ's crucification? God is!! Were the people chosen to carry out God's plan, well chosen, willing to sin? Yes. (See Acts 2:23)

The Babylonian capture of Israel was ordained by God.

Isaiah 5:20 best describes you and your theology.

Again...

So you're saying Pilate, Herod, the Romans, and the Jews aren't responsible for Jesus' crucifixion??? Wow...that's a new low for you.

So I'm sure you think Pharaoh wasn't wrong for letting Israel go, and I'm sure you think Judas was an okay guy, and you would've pat Joseph's brothers on the back when they threw him in a pit while cheering "what you're doing is good, Joseph will thank you later".

Everyone please take heed to Van's "theology" so you can ignore accordingly.

 

[Van]

I see RBT has offered that the "Babylonian capture of Israel was ordained by God." Was that in contention or the issue? Nope, so more deflection and obfuscation. Did God punish the Babylonians for actions he compelled them to take? Nope, he punished them for their iniquity, the work of their hands.

See Jeremiah 25:12-14

Who was responsible for putting Jesus to death? See Acts 2:23.

The view that God punishes people for the actions God compels has no support whatsoever in scripture, and in fact is refuted in principle by God does not punish the son for the sins of the father. No verse that actually supports the fiction has been offered, just generalized assertions. Go figure.

This is all they have folks, obfuscation and ad homenim. Go figure.

 

[robustheologian]

Did God punish the Babylonians for actions he compelled them to take? Nope, he punished them for their iniquity, the work of their hands.

You are either saying that God didn't compel the Babylonians to carry out the captivity of Israel or that He did but did not punish them for that?? For clarification...which one are you saying?

Because if it is the former, Jeremiah 25:8-11, 29:4, 21 and 51:7, 20-23 shows that Babylon capturing Israel was the work of God's hands. If it is the latter, Jeremiah 50:1-11 and 51:24 shows that God punished Babylon for what they did to Israel (you can also check out John Martin Bracke's commentary on Jeremiah 30:52 and Lamentations). So give me an answer on which one you are stating...no evasion or obfuscation. Are you saying that God didn't compel the Babylonians to carry out the captivity of Israel or are you saying that He did but did not punish them for that?

 

[Van]

I see once again RBT has offered up nonsense. I have been crystal clear, God does not punish people for taking actions He compelled. Yet, RBT seems unable to grasp that point.

Then RBT says Jeremiah 50:1-11 says otherwise. But the very passage says Babylon sinned against the Lord, and thus is punished for their iniquity. Ditto for Jeremiah 51:24 where the Lord says He will repay Babylon for the evil "they have done."

Bottom line, there is no support anywhere in scripture for the fiction that God punishes people for the actions He compels.

 

[robustheologian]

I see once again RBT has offered up nonsense. I have been crystal clear, God does not punish people for taking actions He compelled. Yet, RBT seems unable to grasp that point.

Then RBT says Jeremiah 50:1-11 says otherwise. But the very passage says Babylon sinned against the Lord, and thus is punished for their iniquity. Ditto for Jeremiah 51:24 where the Lord says He will repay Babylon for the evil "they have done."

Bottom line, there is no support anywhere in scripture for the fiction that God punishes people for the actions He compels.

I'm glad you responded thus so. You've done a better job than anyone else proving you don't know what you're talking about. Thanks. :applause:

As I said...using deductive reasoning (with scripture support):

• God sends the Babylonians to punish Israel. (Jeremiah 25:8-11, 29:4, 21, 51:7, 20-23)
  
• God punishes the Babylonians for what they did to Israel. (Jeremiah 50:1-11, 51:24)
  
• Therefore, God punished the Babylonians for something He sent them to do.

Simply put.

Either Van doesn't get it because:
1. He doesn't know or can't comprehend what the Scriptures say
2. He lacks the logical processing ability of deductive reasoning
3. He's just a contrarian who's intent on looking silly by being wrong just to disagree with someone else

Standby for more foolishness from Van. :thumbs:

 

[Van]

I see RBT has yet again posted ad homenims in place of topical response.

He again makes the case for God sending Babylon to punish Israel. A point not in contention, so obfuscation on display.

God did not punish Babylon for doing what He compelled, but for sinning against Him!

No need to even address the assertions concerning me, they are simply off topic efforts to deflect and obfuscate.

No matter how much bogus doctrine is inserted between the lines, if we simply stick with what scripture says, it provides no support for the fiction being asserted by RBT.

Remember God does not punish the son for the sins of the father. So logically He would not punish people for the actions He compels. Pretty straightforward folks.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Let's try something else.

“In vain I punished your people;
they did not respond to correction.
Your sword has devoured your prophets
like a ravenous lion." --Jer. 2:30

So in this case God caused Israel to rebel (remember, nothing happens without God decreeing it), then he punished them for rebelliousness, yet they did not repent.

God punished rebellious Israel because He wanted Israel to repent. Under Calvinism, only God can grant repentance. Yet, still they did not repent. So how can Israel not repent when God is the author of repentance and He wanted them to repent?

Brother IntheLight and Brother Van,

Did not God send the wicked king of Assyria to punish the Jews, then turn about and punish the king for doing so? He sure did! God sends the King here, "5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets."

That he predestinated the wicked king to attack the Jews is seen here " Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem" (Isaiah 10:12A)

He then punishes the Assyrian King for doing this here," I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks. (Isaiah 10:12B)

He punishes the king because he takes credit for destroying the Jews when it was in fact God that did it and the King was only the saw in the hand of the man that shakes it "13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:... Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood." (Isaiah 10:13, 15)

How do you explain these things Brother IntheLight? Are these not the very things you say God can't or doesn't do?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

God neither causes nor creates evil. God may allow evil to have its way as a means to an end. The causing or creating of evil would make on evil.

Revmitchell,

Something being created evil would not be a sinful act to the creator if the intent of the creator for making it thus was for ultimately good purposes, for example God meant it for good when Joseph's brothers wickedly betrayed their brother, threw him in a pit, then sold him into slavery. If this was never done God could not have later used Joseph to save many people who were starving due to the famine. Thiis is explicit in this verse, "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Geneses 50:20) God predestinated sin that he could bring about the greatest act of love, mercy, and redemption in the act of sending his Son as a sacrifice.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

So רַע in Genesis 3:22 means evil (Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”)

And רַע in Proverbs 12:20 means evil (Deceit is in the hearts of those who plot evil, but those who promote peace have joy.)

And רַע in Psalm 34:13-14 also means evil (Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit. Turn away from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.)

And even in the same book of Isaiah 47:10, רַע means evil ("You felt secure in your wickedness and said, 'No one sees me,' Your wisdom and your knowledge, they have deluded you; For you have said in your heart, 'I am, and there is no one besides me.')

...yet you say רַע in Isaiah 45:7 doesn't mean evil??? That doesn't add up.



Of course God is not the author of sin or "evil" in that He is not a sinner but He has willed all things into existence...including evil.

Excellent post Brother Robust!

 

[BrotherJoseph]

God did not "Create" evil, the Bible says of the enemy, "iniquity was found in him."

Ezekiel 28:
“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire."

“You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you."
​

Did God create the evil found in the anointed cherub?

Nope.

Brother Aged,

You are incorrect in concluding that because scripture says "unrighteousness was found" in the anointed cherub means that God did not put it there. If I "find a coin" on the road, the coin was there before I found it, it just hadn't been made manifest, likewise the iniquity that was found in the cherub.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I do not differentiate between "doing" evil and "creating" evil.
Though the one that does evil is not responsible for the one that has created evil; the one who has created evil is just as responsible as the one who does the evil, just as if he is the one who is doing the evil.

Brother DHK,

Greetings. Intent is what makes an act evil. If a physician amputates a leg to save somebody it is not evil, however if he cuts it off to simply inflict pain it most certainly is evil. In the same manner, God can create evil for a good purpose, thus the act of creating it is not evil. The prime example of this is the crucifixion. Herod, the high priests, and Pilate certainly had no good intent when they crucified Christ, but the Father did when we read, "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief (Isaiah 53:10a). Why did the Lord bruise his Son? For a good Holy purpose, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). Now are you going to say it was evil for the Lord to bruise His Son? I don't think so! Yes, was it not evil when Pilate, the High Priests, and Herod did the very same thing because of their evil intent?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Lets see:

1) God predestines everything, including every evil thought and act.
2) God is not the author of evil.
3) Cognitive dissonance anyone?

The actual biblical position is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, thus God is not the author of the evil men do. God's actions which adversely affect men are often seen as evil by the men adversely affected. But, from God's perspective, the harsh environment which brings death and destruction to many, is not evil for its purpose is good, to encourage people to seek God as a refuge.

Brother Van,

Why did God put Satan in the garden if he knew it would contribute to the fall? Moreover, why did God create Adam and Eve in a manner if it wasn't his intent that they fall? No rational human being would create something foreknowing it wouldn't work as it intended, it that what you are implying God himself did?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

There are no examples in scripture of God condemning people for acts compelled by God's predestination. None, zip, nada.

The whole premise is a fiction of the highest order.

Brother Van,

I will give you an example. In the book of Second Samuel it says: “And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. (24:1)” Here we see that the Lord was angry with Israel again and he (the Lord) moved David against them in numbering the people. The word for “and he moved” means to “prick” or better yet to “stimulate, seduce, entice, persuade and provoke”. So we see the Lord “causing” David to say “Go, number Israel and Judah” because of his anger towards Israel. Then King David tells his captain of the host Joab to go out and number all the people. Then after it is all said and done, David is convicted or pricked in the heart for numbering the people and says unto the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. (24:10)” David confessed to sinning greatly before the Lord. Here it was Jehovah who moved (directed his steps) David to sin in numbering the people and then we see David confessing his sin to Jehovah for numbering the people. (To me, this is a perfect invalidation to the accusation that if it is God that causes one to sin then that person can just turn around and blame their sin on God. David was moved to do this action and yet it is evident from these verses that he was convicted of that sin and confessed that sin before the Lord.) Now, I can probably guess as to what some are probably thinking: But it says in 1 Chronicles that: “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. (21:1)” Yes, you are absolutely correct and that verse is as much Scripture and truth as the verses quoted above, yet scripture is also very clear elsewhere that Satan is nothing but God’s servant, or better yet His puppet and he does what he is told to do (Job 1:8, etc.). And one cannot deny that these Scriptures in 2nd Samuel very clearly state that it was God who moved David to number Israel.

After his sin God told David to choose one of three ways to be corrected. The first way was to have a famine throughout the land for seven years. David knew what famine was like, as he had already suffered famine for three years due to the killing of the Gibeonites. The second choice of correction was to flee from his enemies for three months. Again, David knew what this was like, as he had many times fled from Saul and even had to flee from his son Absalom. Thus God punishes David for something he moved (predestinated) him to in fact do.