John R. Rice and IFB Evangelism

[Tom Butler]

John, don't leave us. I am not what would normally be thought of as IFB, but I so appreciate you and your family. And I appreciated your grandfather, too.

You have many friends here on the BB. I suggest that we all come to your defense against attack.

 

[annsni]

John - Thanks so much on the info on your grandfather. I believe that he was right on and I appreciate all of the work he did for the kingdom!

 

[Revmitchell]

John - Thanks so much on the info on your grandfather. I believe that he was right on and I appreciate all of the work he did for the kingdom!

Uh....ditto!

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

To John of Japan For EVERYONE To SEE

John...I hope you will not withdraw from this Board because it needs you and people like you in order to keep a sense of balance and have the influence of seasoned Christian gentlemen and statesman such as yourself. I highly value and thank the Lord for the perspective you bring to the table in the arguments and debates that go on in this community of faith on the Baptist Board. Please don't go.
That said...I can understand why you might want to. It must be difficult having to sit there and watch people here vilify people that you are either directly related too, or have had a significant influence in your life. None of the men that have been blasted in this thread (and I have heard them all preach too) were perfect men because there is no such thing....but I dare say that most, if not all of them (collectively) won more souls to Christ in their lifetimes than ALL OF US PUT TOGETHER. Anything they got wrong has ALREADY been made right since EVERYONE OF THEM (Rice, Hatch, Hyles, Hutson, and I'll add a few.....Gray, Roloff, DeHaan, Sightler, Lakin and Oliver B.Greene...to name a few...they were all men of great influence in the Kingdom while HERE)..EVERYONE OF THEM is now in the very presence of our dear Saviour and has made eternal AMENDS for anything they might have been wrong about HERE. I have had a few Christian "heroes" that I have sadly had to watch FALL and that was a disappointment....but that gave me nor anyone else the right to BE THEIR JUDGE. What it did do was make me examine MYSELF closer so that maybe...just MAYBE...with God's help I wouldn't make the same errors and commit the same sins. It is to MY SHAME that as a Christian man who has been saved for the better part of 36 years, I have never, to my own knowledge, EVER won a soul to faith in Christ as far as I know. I have planted plenty of "seeds"....but never won anybody that I know of. If it wasn't a sin to "envy" others, I might be tempted to envy any or all of the men listed above. I'm just not good at face-to-face confrontational stuff. Pray for me...that has been a source of doubt and pain to me for years.
Anyway...please don't go...stay! You know it is easy for the naysayers here to take "pot-shots" at dead men. They don't talk back. This Board needs you. Thanks for all you do.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[evangelist6589]

Spouse?? When did you get married?

I will in July

 

[evangelist6589]

From my research John R Rice seemed to be a good, godly evangelist/preacher. He preached repentance and genuineness in conversion. The problems with IFB evangelism came in with his successors and some contemporaries like Curtis Hudson, Carl Hatch and Jack Hyles. All three of which and many others who follow them have virtually tried to erase repentance from the Bible and are numbers driven and very prideful. They are one of the biggest reasons you see so much "1,2,3 pray after me" pseudo-evangelism going on.

I've listened to several of Rice's sermons and I don't remember them perfectly but I remember them to be fairly good. :thumbsup:

Jack Hyles is bad news indeed. I know of churches that like idol the man and base everything off his philosophy and style of preaching. Thank goodness there are none in the area of Colorado where I reside.

 

[evangelist6589]

I do not know Carl Hatch, and I was not a big fan of Jack Hyles, but Curtis Hutson was a very godly man who brought thousands to Christ.

Curtis Hutson absolutely believed repentance was essential to salvation, but perhaps not as YOU understand repentance. Here is an article he wrote on the very subject.

http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/repentance.html

I happen to agree with Pastor Hutson's definition of biblical repentance.

He was a GREAT preacher.

That is another one of those academic websites not designed for todays reader. Very useful for seminary students and Bible students however.

 

[evangelist6589]

Read it already and it's full of faulty reasoning and strawman arguments. You say you weren't a big fan of Jack Hyles, but Curtis Hutson was virtually his carbon copy.

And Carl Hatch was probably worse, just thankfully less influential:


Link
I've bolded the particularly atrocious sections.
This is an excerpt from a larger body of work published by David Cloud of Way of Life. Cloud is also IFB yet adamantly opposed to the easy believism of Hutson, Hyles, and Hatch (must be a theme going here...).


As a disclaimer: I think Cloud is off on several things as well, music and ultra-separatism in particular, but he has his good points.

Whats that? Is that like what BJU would teach? Or more like what a Minnoite church would teach?

 

[evangelist6589]

I have moved and the church of my spouse is a small IFB one.

First of all everyone avoided the real question. Division in the house is not good.raying:

I met some Way of the Master advocates at church on Sunday and I mentioned WOTM in Sunday school and some liked the examples.

 

[Arbo]

John of Japan- I hope that you will not leave. Your wisdom of years and the balance of your perspective that you bring to BB are appreciated by many who are interested in more than just picking a fight and firing off insults.

 

[evangelist6589]

I'll be honest, I'm pretty tired of the BB right now, so I'd decided to lay off for awhile. I've been called more names here and such in the past week then in my years previously here. But since my grandfather is referenced here, I'll do at least one post. Here are some brief notes about John R. Rice and evangelism.

1. He was for all methods, just as long as people were getting the Gospel out. So he wouldn't have been against the "Way of the Master" method unless someone said it was the only way to do soul winning. "But the end itself, soul-winning, is more important than any of the means" (The Golden Path to Successful Personal Soul Winning, by JRR, p. 83).

This is good then. As long as the gospel is preached then I am happy as well. Crystal mostly uses EE and I do sometimes as well. However I default to WOTM.

2. He was not for berating people, I think he would have been for people getting the Gospel out with most of the Chick tracts, but would have been against some of the phony stuff that Chick comes up with (the Johnny Todd stuff he did years ago, the Alberto stuff, the two "saved witches") and would have been against Chick's radical KJVO position.

Chick Banned me from their FB group because I quoted from the ESV or NIV I think. I told them I am a big time evangelist, but because I used the ESV or NIV I got the axe. They are extremists no doubt. Some of their tracts are very offensive and rejoice about sinners burning in hell. Very offensive….

3. He believed very strongly in compassion in soul-winning. I've heard him say that a preacher who preached against Hell without weeping was backslidden. His favorite passage was Ps. 126:5-6, and that is how he signed his name: "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him."

4. He believed very strongly in the power of the Holy Spirit in soul-winning, and preached about it often.

Amen to that brother for it is God whom brings the converts. If this is true then why do so many of his followers rely on soul winning techniques to bring forth conversions? At church someone asked me how "effective" I was with WOTM. I said it is God whom bring the converts and I do the planting. In the past people have doubted me and my efforts because I have not made any disciples or had many conversions. I say that Noah and Jeremiah preached for a long time and had no converts so why should I? God brings the converts and I do the planting. People must not rely on methods and pragmatism in their evangelism, but must rely on the Holy Spirit.

5. He was very strong on repentance. "The Greek word for repentance in the Bible simply means a change of mind; that is, a wholesale change of attitude toward sin and toward God. One who turns his heart to trust in Christ has, naturally, turned his heart away from the love of sin. How could on love the Lord Jesus Christ and long to please Him without turning in his heart away from sin, or in other words, repenting from sin?" (Dr. Rice, Here is my Question, p. 248).

You have a spare copy of that book? I want to give it a read.

6. He did not believe you have to pray in order to be saved. That is a sign of faith, not some help towards faith. So in his own soul-winning he would deal with someone using John 3 or Isaiah 53, then pray with them, but instead of asking them to pray he would say with their eyes closed and head bowed, "Won't you take my hand as a sign that you are trusting Christ?" When they did that he would pray further with them, sometimes asking them to pray a word of thanks to the Lord for saving them.

Very good

Do a search of "John R. Rice" on Youtube, and you'll find several sermons where he preaches on soul-winning.

 

[Arbo]

I will in July

I thought a spouse isn't a spouse until after the vows are said.

Congratulations to you and your fiancee.

 

[John of Japan]

John, don't leave us. I am not what would normally be thought of as IFB, but I so appreciate you and your family. And I appreciated your grandfather, too.

You have many friends here on the BB. I suggest that we all come to your defense against attack.

Thanks much for the encouragement, Tom. I've always deeply appreciated you here on the BB.

Thanks also for the encouraging words from Annsni, revmitchell, Gregory Perry Sr. and Arbo. I didn't write my post with the idea in mind of getting people to stroke my ego, regardless of what my recent critics think. As far as I know (but only the Lord knows completely) I've never had that motive here. I just wanted to let my friends here know my thoughts. Part of it is that the wife and I are just weary all around. We've been here a long time, and this country is very hard-hearted. And the dollar has been so weak for so many years that we make it by just barely.

No need to write back about this, folks--just getting it off my chest. The Lord is good and uplifts us and meets all our needs.

 

[John of Japan]

John...I hope you will not withdraw from this Board because it needs you and people like you in order to keep a sense of balance and have the influence of seasoned Christian gentlemen and statesman such as yourself. I highly value and thank the Lord for the perspective you bring to the table in the arguments and debates that go on in this community of faith on the Baptist Board. Please don't go.
That said...I can understand why you might want to. It must be difficult having to sit there and watch people here vilify people that you are either directly related too, or have had a significant influence in your life. None of the men that have been blasted in this thread (and I have heard them all preach too) were perfect men because there is no such thing....but I dare say that most, if not all of them (collectively) won more souls to Christ in their lifetimes than ALL OF US PUT TOGETHER. Anything they got wrong has ALREADY been made right since EVERYONE OF THEM (Rice, Hatch, Hyles, Hutson, and I'll add a few.....Gray, Roloff, DeHaan, Sightler, Lakin and Oliver B.Greene...to name a few...they were all men of great influence in the Kingdom while HERE)..EVERYONE OF THEM is now in the very presence of our dear Saviour and has made eternal AMENDS for anything they might have been wrong about HERE. I have had a few Christian "heroes" that I have sadly had to watch FALL and that was a disappointment....but that gave me nor anyone else the right to BE THEIR JUDGE. What it did do was make me examine MYSELF closer so that maybe...just MAYBE...with God's help I wouldn't make the same errors and commit the same sins. It is to MY SHAME that as a Christian man who has been saved for the better part of 36 years, I have never, to my own knowledge, EVER won a soul to faith in Christ as far as I know. I have planted plenty of "seeds"....but never won anybody that I know of. If it wasn't a sin to "envy" others, I might be tempted to envy any or all of the men listed above. I'm just not good at face-to-face confrontational stuff. Pray for me...that has been a source of doubt and pain to me for years.
Anyway...please don't go...stay! You know it is easy for the naysayers here to take "pot-shots" at dead men. They don't talk back. This Board needs you. Thanks for all you do.

Bro.Greg:saint:

You know, here I am an (sometimes hated) IFB pastor. And we are criticized for being separatists and anti-this and anti-that. But I don't see the need of tearing preachers or other believers down. To the best of my memory I've never participated in the threads here that tear down different preachers, even someone I disagree strongly with.

I knew Curtis Hutson, who preached at my ordination service. He was not theologically educated, being only a postman who was called to preach, so I take criticisms of his theology with that in mind. He wasn't sophisticated in that direction. He made some blunders in his ministry, but loved the Lord and loved to see people saved.

I knew Jack Hyles, and had some differences with him. (For one thing, I wouldn't sign his "100% Hyles" statement.) But he preached the Gospel to the end, even if folks don't like how he did it.

I didn't know personally the other men you mee ntioned, but I'll just quote the Word: "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth" (Rom. 14:4).

Grandpa Rice loved Ps. 119:63--"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." I think that verse should rule the BB. So I'll cheer on Evangelisy6589 and this thread. At least he's out there trying to win folks for the Lord!

 

[John of Japan]

This is good then. As long as the gospel is preached then I am happy as well. Crystal mostly uses EE and I do sometimes as well. However I default to WOTM.

I'm glad to read this. In a previous thread you seemed to be saying that WOTM was the only Biblical way to witness. Brother, I'm for you, whatever method you use, as long as you are obeying the Great Commission.

Chick Banned me from their FB group because I quoted from the ESV or NIV I think. I told them I am a big time evangelist, but because I used the ESV or NIV I got the axe. They are extremists no doubt. Some of their tracts are very offensive and rejoice about sinners burning in hell. Very offensive….

Chick tracts are a mixed bag. The comic form makes them very easy to pass out in Japan, the land of manga, and many years ago I translated "The Word Became Flesh" into Japanese for them. But then like you say, I wouldn't touch some of their other tracts with a ten foot Japanese laundry pole!

Amen to that brother for it is God whom brings the converts. If this is true then why do so many of his followers rely on soul winning techniques to bring forth conversions? At church someone asked me how "effective" I was with WOTM. I said it is God whom bring the converts and I do the planting. In the past people have doubted me and my efforts because I have not made any disciples or had many conversions. I say that Noah and Jeremiah preached for a long time and had no converts so why should I? God brings the converts and I do the planting. People must not rely on methods and pragmatism in their evangelism, but must rely on the Holy Spirit.

Amen to that. I can't save a single soul, but I can give the Gospel and "lead them" to Christ in the sense that I partner with the Holy Spirit, "fellow-laborers with God."

You have a spare copy of that book? I want to give it a read.

Can't help you there, but it is a good book if you can get ahold of it. It came from the thousands of personal letters that he answered, asking him all kinds of Bible questions. You can get a used copy very cheap on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0873981588/?tag=baptis04-20

 

[evangelist6589]

You know, here I am an (sometimes hated) IFB pastor. And we are criticized for being separatists and anti-this and anti-that. But I don't see the need of tearing preachers or other believers down. To the best of my memory I've never participated in the threads here that tear down different preachers, even someone I disagree strongly with.

I knew Curtis Hutson, who preached at my ordination service. He was not theologically educated, being only a postman who was called to preach, so I take criticisms of his theology with that in mind. He wasn't sophisticated in that direction. He made some blunders in his ministry, but loved the Lord and loved to see people saved.

I knew Jack Hyles, and had some differences with him. (For one thing, I wouldn't sign his "100% Hyles" statement.) But he preached the Gospel to the end, even if folks don't like how he did it.

I didn't know personally the other men you mee ntioned, but I'll just quote the Word: "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth" (Rom. 14:4).

Grandpa Rice loved Ps. 119:63--"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." I think that verse should rule the BB. So I'll cheer on Evangelisy6589 and this thread. At least he's out there trying to win folks for the Lord!

I have a big problem with Jack Hyles so I sure hope you examine him more closely.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

I'd bet He already has

I have a big problem with Jack Hyles so I sure hope you examine him more closely.

I think a lot of people here would have problems with Dr. Hyles considering the things history has now revealed about him and his deeds but even he had a better day before he went awry. At one time I considered him a hero of sorts but not anymore. Yet....I'll bet there are some people in heaven because of the Gospel he preached at some point. The point is God is his Judge.....NOT US!
I like some of the methods of WOTM and I particularly like watching them do the "Good Person Test" using the 10 commandments that makes people face what they really are (sinners)....but I don't care for all of the Nazarene theology that Ray Comfort probably holds too. I'm not gonna argue the point though....only say that I agree with John that we ought to all be thankful and supportive where possible when folks are out trying to win others to the Lord. Of course...that said....we don't "yoke up" or join hands with people such as the Catholics, the Mormons, the JW's, the 7th day Adventists or other such cultic groups that are out there proselytizing USEING the name of Jesus to try to suck people into their false religions. As for Dr. Hyles...in MY opinion...the Gospel he preached right up until his "departure" was...as far as I know...the Virgin Birth of Christ, His Perfect life, and His Death, Burial, Resurrection and Ascension...and salvation by grace through faith in THAT (if THAT is NOT true, I'm SURE someone here WILL correct me). That doesn't excuse the wrong he did. That is between him and God. If you go to 1st Baptist Hammond today...I'm sure that is the Gospel message they still preach. I'd bet there will still be people saved there by hearing THAT message...as long as it is still preached...whether WE like the place or not. May God help them to get their house in order. In the meantime...we (myself included) better make sure OUR'S is as it should be.....amen??

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[John of Japan]

I have a big problem with Jack Hyles so I sure hope you examine him more closely.

If you'll read my post again, all I said was he preached the Gospel. And the Apostle Paul rejoiced that anyone preached the Gospel, including his enemies, even when the motives were wrong: "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice" (Phil. 1:18).

I said I knew him and had my own problems with him. When accusations rose against him I read the books and articles and was, in a very small way, involved as I stated. I am aware of his problems and still rejoice that he preached the Gospel.

 

[Yeshua1]

If you'll read my post again, all I said was he preached the Gospel. And the Apostle Paul rejoiced that anyone preached the Gospel, including his enemies, even when the motives were wrong: "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice" (Phil. 1:18).

I said I knew him and had my own problems with him. When accusations rose against him I read the books and articles and was, in a very small way, involved as I stated. I am aware of his problems and still rejoice that he preached the Gospel.

not familiar with him , was/is he part of the Chick ministries type mindset?

 

[John of Japan]

not familiar with him , was/is he part of the Chick ministries type mindset?

Jack Hyles (1926-2001) was not directly connected in any way with Chick. He was an IFB pastor who built the First Baptist of Hammond, IN, into a mega-church in the 1960s and '70's. He emphasized soul-winning with the Romans Road, had a massive bus ministry, and founded Hyles-Anderson College with the financial backing of millionaire Russell Anderson.

He was a close friend of my grandfather's, but after Granddad passed on in 1980 Hyles changed in a lot of ways. In particular he became radical KJVO, something I disagree with.

In '89 he was accused of having an affair with his secretary, which caused a firestorm in IFB circles. He survived as pastor, but lost a lot of influence among fundamentalists by his insistence that people come out 100% on his side.