John R. Rice and IFB Evangelism

[RLBosley]

I think David Cloud might misrepresent what Jack Hyles and Curtis Hutson meant by turning from unbelief to unbelief.

Don't think so. I have one of the Jack hyles books in question (soft copy) Enemies of Soul Winning Where Hyles specifically says that repentance is only turning from unbelief to belief. I've read an evagelism book by Hutson, "Winning Souls and Getting Them Down the Aisle", which is basically a how to manual for sales-man style manipulation and easy believism.

All men believe in something, all men are trusting in something to get them to heaven. A man may believe he is a very good person and has earned salvation in God's sight. This is not unbelief, but it is belief in one's own righteousness to save them. A person must repent, that is, turn from this false belief and trust only in Jesus Christ to save them.

The Jews believed they were going to heaven simply because they were the descendants of Abraham. This is not unbelief, it is a false belief. This is what John the Baptist told the Jews they must repent of.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Vs. 9 shows what John the Baptist was telling these Pharisees and Sadducees that they must repent of, they must turn from the false belief that they were saved simply because they were descended from Abraham. They must realize that you cannot inherit salvation from your parents.

Many folks believe in the wrong thing. Many believe they are saved because they belong to the church, or because they were raised in a Christian family. These are false beliefs which a person must turn from to be saved, they must realize they are a lost sinner, and that their only hope is to trust in Jesus Christ alone to save them. This is biblical repentance.

I generally agree with this. But there is also a repentance of sin, not just your beliefs about what's getting you to Heaven.

This post is right on the money:thumbsup::wavey::thumbsup:

Thanks

I'll be honest, I'm pretty tired of the BB right now, so I'd decided to lay off for awhile. I've been called more names here and such in the past week then in my years previously here. But since my grandfather is referenced here, I'll do at least one post. Here are some brief notes about John R. Rice and evangelism.

1. He was for all methods, just as long as people were getting the Gospel out. So he wouldn't have been against the "Way of the Master" method unless someone said it was the only way to do soul winning. "But the end itself, soul-winning, is more important than any of the means" (The Golden Path to Successful Personal Soul Winning, by JRR, p. 83).

2. He was not for berating people, I think he would have been for people getting the Gospel out with most of the Chick tracts, but would have been against some of the phony stuff that Chick comes up with (the Johnny Todd stuff he did years ago, the Alberto stuff, the two "saved witches") and would have been against Chick's radical KJVO position.

3. He believed very strongly in compassion in soul-winning. I've heard him say that a preacher who preached against Hell without weeping was backslidden. His favorite passage was Ps. 126:5-6, and that is how he signed his name: "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him."

4. He believed very strongly in the power of the Holy Spirit in soul-winning, and preached about it often.

5. He was very strong on repentance. "The Greek word for repentance in the Bible simply means a change of mind; that is, a wholesale change of attitude toward sin and toward God. One who turns his heart to trust in Christ has, naturally, turned his heart away from the love of sin. How could on love the Lord Jesus Christ and long to please Him without turning in his heart away from sin, or in other words, repenting from sin?" (Dr. Rice, Here is my Question, p. 248).

6. He did not believe you have to pray in order to be saved. That is a sign of faith, not some help towards faith. So in his own soul-winning he would deal with someone using John 3 or Isaiah 53, then pray with them, but instead of asking them to pray he would say with their eyes closed and head bowed, "Won't you take my hand as a sign that you are trusting Christ?" When they did that he would pray further with them, sometimes asking them to pray a word of thanks to the Lord for saving them.

Do a search of "John R. Rice" on Youtube, and you'll find several sermons where he preaches on soul-winning.

:thumbsup: Like I said, John Rice seems to have been a very solid, godly preacher. I hope you were able to learn much from him.

None of the men that have been blasted in this thread (and I have heard them all preach too) were perfect men because there is no such thing....but I dare say that most, if not all of them (collectively) won more souls to Christ in their lifetimes than ALL OF US PUT TOGETHER. Anything they got wrong has ALREADY been made right since EVERYONE OF THEM (Rice, Hatch, Hyles, Hutson, and I'll add a few.....Gray, Roloff, DeHaan, Sightler, Lakin and Oliver B.Greene...to name a few...they were all men of great influence in the Kingdom while HERE)..EVERYONE OF THEM is now in the very presence of our dear Saviour and has made eternal AMENDS for anything they might have been wrong about HERE. I have had a few Christian "heroes" that I have sadly had to watch FALL and that was a disappointment....but that gave me nor anyone else the right to BE THEIR JUDGE. What it did do was make me examine MYSELF closer so that maybe...just MAYBE...with God's help I wouldn't make the same errors and commit the same sins.

I greatly disagree that these men have done any such thing. Particularly the ones I bolded above. What they did more than anyting is preach a false assurance of salvation and make people almost "resistant" to genuine evangelism.

It is to MY SHAME that as a Christian man who has been saved for the better part of 36 years, I have never, to my own knowledge, EVER won a soul to faith in Christ as far as I know. I have planted plenty of "seeds"....but never won anybody that I know of. If it wasn't a sin to "envy" others, I might be tempted to envy any or all of the men listed above. I'm just not good at face-to-face confrontational stuff. Pray for me...that has been a source of doubt and pain to me for years.

And that is a fruit of their methodology. It is not a shame in ANY SENSE of the word that you haven't "won someone to Christ" (what a ludicrous phrase) if you have faithfully preached the gospel! The Hyles/Hatch/Hutson methodology is entirely numbers focused and creates much pride in the "successful soul-winners" and shame in those that are less "successful."
We are called to be faithful witnesses and if you have done that then you have nothing to be ashamed of.

I will in July

Congrats.

Whats that? Is that like what BJU would teach? Or more like what a Minnoite church would teach?

That's just a term I use to describe the high level of separation that many IFB churches follow. (Let me say that I think separation is GOOD and Biblical, but must be done correctly) Cloud in particular pushes really high levels of separatism, he only deals with IFB churches and only those he agrees with 100%. For example he refuses to fellowship with any IFB that uses any music published since 1960 (or something like that).

Thankfully he is on the "more correct side" compared to Hyles and Co.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jack Hyles (1926-2001) was not directly connected in any way with Chick. He was an IFB pastor who built the First Baptist of Hammond, IN, into a mega-church in the 1960s and '70's. He emphasized soul-winning with the Romans Road, had a massive bus ministry, and founded Hyles-Anderson College with the financial backing of millionaire Russell Anderson.

He was a close friend of my grandfather's, but after Granddad passed on in 1980 Hyles changed in a lot of ways. In particular he became radical KJVO, something I disagree with.

In '89 he was accused of having an affair with his secretary, which caused a firestorm in IFB circles. He survived as pastor, but lost a lot of influence among fundamentalists by his insistence that people come out 100% on his side.

Thanks!

So he started out teaching/preaching well, but ended up poorly then?

What made him become fervently KJVO?

 

[Salty]

What made him become fervently KJVO?

Found this link - hope it helps

 

[Yeshua1]

Found this link - hope it helps

Ah, another convert to the Cult of Ruckmanism!

 

[Salty]

I received this email from John of Japan today:
"Thanks for the heads up. JRR was most certainly not KJO, as anyone knows who knew him or has read his writings on Bibliology."

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Don't think so. I have one of the Jack hyles books in question (soft copy) Enemies of Soul Winning Where Hyles specifically says that repentance is only turning from unbelief to belief. I've read an evagelism book by Hutson, "Winning Souls and Getting Them Down the Aisle", which is basically a how to manual for sales-man style manipulation and easy believism.



I generally agree with this. But there is also a repentance of sin, not just your beliefs about what's getting you to Heaven.



Thanks



:thumbsup: Like I said, John Rice seems to have been a very solid, godly preacher. I hope you were able to learn much from him.


I greatly disagree that these men have done any such thing. Particularly the ones I bolded above. What they did more than anyting is preach a false assurance of salvation and make people almost "resistant" to genuine evangelism.




And that is a fruit of their methodology. It is not a shame in ANY SENSE of the word that you haven't "won someone to Christ" (what a ludicrous phrase) if you have faithfully preached the gospel! The Hyles/Hatch/Hutson methodology is entirely numbers focused and creates much pride in the "successful soul-winners" and shame in those that are less "successful."
We are called to be faithful witnesses and if you have done that then you have nothing to be ashamed of.


Congrats.


That's just a term I use to describe the high level of separation that many IFB churches follow. (Let me say that I think separation is GOOD and Biblical, but must be done correctly) Cloud in particular pushes really high levels of separatism, he only deals with IFB churches and only those he agrees with 100%. For example he refuses to fellowship with any IFB that uses any music published since 1960 (or something like that).

Thankfully he is on the "more correct side" compared to Hyles and Co.

Bosley....I usually find your posts to be informed, intelligent, and relevant and worth consideration....but if I may:
Quite frankly...this post of yours seems to have come "full-circle"... You sound MORE like Jack Hyles in this post than he himself does. You are getting quite "fundamentalist" in your approach.

You are OBVIOUSLY EXTREMELY intelligent.....but..............you are also quite young.
I generally find you to be quite informative....but you may be over-stepping somewhat on this thread...re-think a little here.

Gregory Perry....is quoting men like "de Haan"...as in "M.R. de Haan"....I promise you...he isn't then quoting a bunch of washed-up hacks.....

I don't think you know who M.R. deHaan is....don't be so VERY quick...learn from older men like Gregory Perry...
Easy fellow: You ARE smart.......:type: just don't take your own talent TOO far. Slow down some :jesus:
I appreciate your contributions on this board...God Bless

 

[JimmyH]

John...I hope you will not withdraw from this Board because it needs you and people like you in order to keep a sense of balance and have the influence of seasoned Christian gentlemen and statesman such as yourself. I highly value and thank the Lord for the perspective you bring to the table in the arguments and debates that go on in this community of faith on the Baptist Board. Please don't go.

I echo the sentiments expressed by my Christian brother.

 

[RLBosley]

Bosley....I usually find your posts to be informed, intelligent, and relevant and worth consideration....but if I may:
Quite frankly...this post of yours seems to have come "full-circle"... You sound MORE like Jack Hyles in this post than he himself does. You are getting quite "fundamentalist" in your approach.

You are OBVIOUSLY EXTREMELY intelligent.....but..............you are also quite young.
I generally find you to be quite informative....but you may be over-stepping somewhat on this thread...re-think a little here.

Gregory Perry....is quoting men like "de Haan"...as in "M.R. de Haan"....I promise you...he isn't then quoting a bunch of washed-up hacks.....

I don't think you know who M.R. deHaan is....don't be so VERY quick...learn from older men like Gregory Perry...
Easy fellow: You ARE smart.......:type: just don't take your own talent TOO far. Slow down some :jesus:
I appreciate your contributions on this board...God Bless

Well I am a fundamentalist at heart, as in believing in the fundamentals of the faith.

And I get what you're saying - I was probably being a bit rough in what I said however men like Hyles, and Hatch infuriate me and it's hard to withhold. I admit I haven't heard of De Haan before, so I'll check him out.

Thanks for the encouragement and the admonition, I really appreciate it.

 

[John of Japan]

I echo the sentiments expressed by my Christian brother.

Thank you. And welcome to the BB. I hope you have a blessed experience here. I've learned a lot and been greatly blessed by many. :wavey:

 

[Yeshua1]

Well I am a fundamentalist at heart, as in believing in the fundamentals of the faith.

And I get what you're saying - I was probably being a bit rough in what I said however men like Hyles, and Hatch infuriate me and it's hard to withhold. I admit I haven't heard of De Haan before, so I'll check him out.

Thanks for the encouragement and the admonition, I really appreciate it.

think the De hanns founded Our daily bread/radio Bible Class/School here in Michigan, so would be "good' fundamentalists!

 

[Mexdeaf]

I received this email from John of Japan today:
"Thanks for the heads up. JRR was most certainly not KJO, as anyone knows who knew him or has read his writings on Bibliology."

Just read his book "Our God-breathed Book - the Bible" - that point is made perfectly clear.

Most of the old-time fundamentalists - Lee Roberson, R.G. Lee, Jack Hudson, and others whose names I have forgotten - were NOT KJVO although that may have been the only version that they used. Dr. Roberson was known to expel or at least put students on suspension that tried to bring that divisive teaching into TTU. He spoke against it many times.