John R Rice vs. Jack Hyles

[John of Japan]

The people of Nineveh, as God preached to them His prophecy of coming future judgement, and the Spirit then moved in biggest revival in history. the word of God was given forth, and the Spirit Himself did His task among them.

I really think more were saved during the Great Awakening, so that is hardly the greatest revival in history. But let's break it down. God sent them a prophet (albeit a reluctant one. Then what do we have? Let's look at the reaction to Jonah's message in ch. 3:

"7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands."

It happened just as I said: individual repentance and corporate prayer. The people of Ninevah from the king on down fulfilled the conditions needed for revival.

 

[Yeshua1]

I really think more were saved during the Great Awakening, so that is hardly the greatest revival in history. But let's break it down. God sent them a prophet (albeit a reluctant one. Then what do we have? Let's look at the reaction to Jonah's message in ch. 3:

"7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands."

It happened just as I said: individual repentance and corporate prayer. The people of Ninevah from the king on down fulfilled the conditions needed for revival.

Yes, but the Holy Spirit Himself was the direct cause of what they were doing there!

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, but the Holy Spirit Himself was the direct cause of what they were doing there!

So they had not choice in the matter? They did not repent as in a change of mind?

I'm not a Calvinist either in soteriology or in revival theology.

 

[Yeshua1]

So they had not choice in the matter? They did not repent as in a change of mind?

I'm not a Calvinist either in soteriology or in revival theology.

They repented, came to faith in God, due to the working of the Holy Spirit who used the preaching of the reluctant prophet!

 

[John of Japan]

They repented, came to faith in God, due to the working of the Holy Spirit who used the preaching of the reluctant prophet!

Well of course. Simply because the Holy Spirit was at work in the revival does not prove the sovereign act view of revival. All who believe in revival and teach it believe that very much. Read these non-Calvinist revivalists on the work of the Holy Spirit in revival: John R. Rice, R. A. Torrey, the Keswick authors, and many others.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well of course. Simply because the Holy Spirit was at work in the revival does not prove the sovereign act view of revival. All who believe in revival and teach it believe that very much. Read these non-Calvinist revivalists on the work of the Holy Spirit in revival: John R. Rice, R. A. Torrey, the Keswick authors, and many others.

It just that when it really hits, it seems due to God moving in first, and then conversions follow...

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I leave it to JoJ to correct this statement if it is necessary. But, in reading the wiki entry for John R. Rice, I spotted this statement:

Rice believed that the mission of churches was "not to take care of Christians" but to "win souls"

from Howard Edgar Moore, "The Emergence of Moderate Fundamentalism: John R. Rice and The Sword of the Lord," Ph.D. dissertation, George Washington University, 1990.​

or as I heard of another preacher in the same orbit say "Church is for winning souls. You can worship at home."

 

[John of Japan]

It just that when it really hits, it seems due to God moving in first, and then conversions follow...

We don't go by "seems" in theology.

 

[John of Japan]

I leave it to JoJ to correct this statement if it is necessary. But, in reading the wiki entry for John R. Rice, I spotted this statement:

Rice believed that the mission of churches was "not to take care of Christians" but to "win souls"

from Howard Edgar Moore, "The Emergence of Moderate Fundamentalism: John R. Rice and The Sword of the Lord," Ph.D. dissertation, George Washington University, 1990.​

or as I heard of another preacher in the same orbit say "Church is for winning souls. You can worship at home."

I have this dissertation, and that is a correct statement from a sermon by JRR in the Sword of the Lord of April 9, 1954, entitled, "Lost Sheep First."

I would modify JRR's statement somewhat by pointing to Eph. 4:11-13, where the leaders (pastor, evangelist, etc.) are to train the believers to serve Christ. You will search the entire NT in vain for any teaching that church (the gathering of disciples of Christ) is for worship. The philosophy or ecclesiology that the "worship service" is the goal of the church is just plain not in the Bible.

Corporate worship may occur in corporate singing and corporate prayer, but that is not the goal. The goal is to serve Christ and advance His kingdom--obeying the Great Commission and winning souls.

 

[John of Japan]

It just that when it really hits, it seems due to God moving in first, and then conversions follow...

Check out the word "if" in the classic passage for revival in Israel:

2 Chron. 7:14--"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

The Holy Spirit is gentle. He does not force Himself and His wonderful blessings on people. He moves upon their hearts and then waits for them to answer in prayer and repentance. That is not a sovereign work that only God does. It is God and believer cooperating. "For we are labourers together with God" (1 Cor. 3:9).

 

[Yeshua1]

Check out the word "if" in the classic passage for revival in Israel:

2 Chron. 7:14--"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

The Holy Spirit is gentle. He does not force Himself and His wonderful blessings on people. He moves upon their hearts and then waits for them to answer in prayer and repentance. That is not a sovereign work that only God does. It is God and believer cooperating. "For we are labourers together with God" (1 Cor. 3:9).

God is still sovereign over the affairs of mankind though, and when He decides to break into the culture and climate to move among the lost to bring them saved thru the proclamation of the Gospel of Christ....

This is a good thing, as it takes the pressure of us and have it rest upon the Lord to do his great work to call out and save His own people when the message is being preached and taught.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have this dissertation, and that is a correct statement from a sermon by JRR in the Sword of the Lord of April 9, 1954, entitled, "Lost Sheep First."

I would modify JRR's statement somewhat by pointing to Eph. 4:11-13, where the leaders (pastor, evangelist, etc.) are to train the believers to serve Christ. You will search the entire NT in vain for any teaching that church (the gathering of disciples of Christ) is for worship. The philosophy or ecclesiology that the "worship service" is the goal of the church is just plain not in the Bible.

Corporate worship may occur in corporate singing and corporate prayer, but that is not the goal. The goal is to serve Christ and advance His kingdom--obeying the Great Commission and winning souls.

Witnessing a evangelism would be outside the church building primarily, as the Church assembling is for the saved to worship the Lord, and to hear from his word.

 

[John of Japan]

God is still sovereign over the affairs of mankind though, and when He decides to break into the culture and climate to move among the lost to bring them saved thru the proclamation of the Gospel of Christ....

This is a good thing, as it takes the pressure of us and have it rest upon the Lord to do his great work to call out and save His own people when the message is being preached and taught.

So the word "If" in the Bible means nothing?

You said that "God is still sovereign." I agree, but I use the usual dictionary definition rather than the Calvinist one. You also said "when He decides," and I once again agree. God decides things--that is what being sovereign means: God can decide to do whatever He wants. He can send revival without anything from us if He wants to. But I've given you Bible that proves He wants us on our knees, repenting and praying, before He will send revival.

There's that pesky "If" in the Bible: "If my people...."

 

[Yeshua1]

So the word "If" in the Bible means nothing?

You said that "God is still sovereign." I agree, but I use the usual dictionary definition rather than the Calvinist one. You also said "when He decides," and I once again agree. God decides things--that is what being sovereign means: God can decide to do whatever He wants. He can send revival without anything from us if He wants to. But I've given you Bible that proves He wants us on our knees, repenting and praying, before He will send revival.

There's that pesky "If" in the Bible: "If my people...."

That brings up the question though, does God ever really change His mind, or is He speaking to us in terms that we can relate to and understand?

 

[John of Japan]

That brings up the question though, does God ever really change His mind, or is He speaking to us in terms that we can relate to and understand?

How do you mean? "If" is "If" in my lexicon.

 

[Yeshua1]

How do you mean? "If" is "If" in my lexicon.

I do not think God really ever changes His mind as we would due to the circumstances, do you?

 

[John of Japan]

I do not think God really ever changes His mind as we would due to the circumstances, do you?

The simple answer is no, not as we do, but He does "change" His mind. You know, we could spend a whole lot of time on this, but it is not following the OP.

 

[Yeshua1]

The simple answer is no, not as we do, but He does "change" His mind. You know, we could spend a whole lot of time on this, but it is not following the OP.

Maybe I should start a new thread now on this issue?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Good idea.

Maybe I should start a new thread now on this issue?

 

[John of Japan]

Oops. Didn't mean to post here. I'm moving this post to the one I've started about "John R. Rice, Jack Hyles, and the KJV."