Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

[FR7 Baptist]

What do you all think about this document between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation?

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[lori4dogs]

It clearly states that there 'is common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ.'

 

[steaver]

It clearly states that there 'is common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ.'

"Common understanding" ?

Jud 1:3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

This common faith was settled and delivered at the first Christian council in Jerusalem. Acts 15. Faith alone is all that is needed for justification/salvation.

 

[DHK]

A common understanding is clearly set out in the Bible:
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God (Rom.5:1).
A common understanding was clearly set out by Luther when he posted his 95 Theses.
A common understanding was clearly set out by the Council of Trent.

These are the historical common understandings that we have come to.

 

[BillySunday1935]

A common understanding is clearly set out in the Bible:
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God (Rom.5:1).
A common understanding was clearly set out by Luther when he posted his 95 Theses.
A common understanding was clearly set out by the Council of Trent.

These are the historical common understandings that we have come to.

and NOT by faith alone.... :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

What do you all think about this document between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation?

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Ok well it starts out with a downright facinating review -

Preamble​

1.The doctrine of justification was of central importance for the Lutheran Reformation of the sixteenth century. It was held to be the "first and chief article"[1] and at the same time the "ruler and judge over all other Christian doctrines."[2] The doctrine of justification was particularly asserted and defended in its Reformation shape and special valuation over against the Roman Catholic Church and theology of that time, which in turn asserted and defended a doctrine of justification of a different character.​

Then this statement that differences on the doctrine of justification still exist between them - but they are not going to condemn each other over those real remaining differences. Thus this document might have been more accurately labeld "joint agreement not to condemen"

5.The present Joint Declaration has this intention: namely, to show that on the basis of their dialogue the subscribing Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church[9] are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ. It does not cover all that either church teaches about justification; it does encompass a consensus on basic truths of the doctrine of justification and shows that the remaining differences in its explication are no longer the occasion for doctrinal condemnations.

If Martin Luther's view of Justification is "no longer" an occassion for condemnation of Luther by the RCC - does that mean that the RC church was wrong to condemn Luther? Did it err?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

and NOT by faith alone.... :thumbs:

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you cannot see saved by faith alone in that verse you need glasses.

 

[BobRyan]

Two justifications.

Justification past - as we see in Romans 3 and Romans 5. The justification received by the lost person that comes to Christ.

Justification future - as we see in Romans 2 and James 2 that relies on the truth of "by their fruits you SHALL know them" Matt 7.

It reveals what the state of that person already is

 

[BillySunday1935]

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you cannot see saved by faith alone in that verse you need glasses.

Reader please note the absence of the word "ALONE" in the scripture verse quoted by DHK. Further, please note that the word "ALONE" only appears in DHK's text. Finally, please note that the verse states "For by grace are ye saved through faith..." See? grace AND faith!

You display your typical MO here DHK - quote one verse to prove (or disprove) a seminal doctrine without regards to the rest of scripture.

In lieu of blasting each other with cherry picked verses, why not look at the question from a logical standpoint. Here are a few logical questions for you DHK...

1. If we are saved by faith alone, then we don’t need to love anyone do we, even God in order to be saved? However, if we do indeed need to love in order to be saved then we are not saved by faith alone are we? We are saved by faith AND love (faith working through love) (Galatians 5:6). If however, one is saying that we do not need love in order to get to heaven, then one must believe that we can get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man.

2. If it is faith alone without love (some translations use the word charity), then why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith?
"But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is faith"? No. It’s love. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing that we can obtain, and it is by faith alone that we obtain it, then faith should be greater than love right? Unfortunately, the bible says differently.

3. If you have faith but not works can your faith save you? If one were to answer yes to this question, then one contradicts scripture. (James 2:14-17)

4. If salvation by faith alone is one of the most seminal of Christian doctrines, then why do the words faith and alone appear together only once in scripture? And that is to say that we are NOT justified or saved by faith alone (James 2:24).

5. Is whether or not we have faith, God’s sole criteria for judging us worthy of salvation? If the answer is no, then it is not salvation by faith alone, is it? If however one were to answer yes to this question, then why does every passage in the New Testament dealing with judgment say that we will be judged by our works? For example Matthew 24, John 15, Romans 2, Revelation 20, and many, MANY more.

6. Jesus tells us in John 6:27, to labor for the food that leads to eternal life. That doesn’t sound like faith alone does it? Laboring in this context is clearly suggestive of faith AND works.

7. Do we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God? If one were to answer yes to this question, then we are not saved by faith alone. After all, we cannot be saved, if our sins are not forgiven by God. And if we cannot have our sins forgiven by God if we do not forgive others, then we cannot be saved. Therefore, we are forgiven by faith, and at least one work; the act of forgiving others of their sins against us. If, however, one responds with no to the above question, then one is going against what Jesus commanded in Matthew 6:14.

8. Where in scripture does it say that we are saved by faith alone?

As with Sola Scriptura, there are insurmountable scriptural and logical errors with the man-made doctrine of Sola Fide.

Peace!

 

[Revmitchell]

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you cannot see saved by faith alone in that verse you need glasses.

Or God given spiritual eyes

 

[lori4dogs]

go billy, go billy!!

 

[billwald]

When addressing Jews, Paul wrote "by faith through grace." When addressing gentiles, Paul wrote, "saved by grace."

Why the difference? Because Jews could reply, 'Yes, we are saved by observing the Law which Moses gave of by God's grace."

 

[DHK]

When addressing Jews, Paul wrote "by faith through grace." When addressing gentiles, Paul wrote, "saved by grace."

Why the difference? Because Jews could reply, 'Yes, we are saved by observing the Law which Moses gave of by God's grace."

There is only one gospel.

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

Paul wrote that to the Ephesians, a church composed of believers, of course. They were believers which had both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds.

If one does not have faith alone in Christ alone who saves by grace alone, then it is doubtful that that one is saved at all.

 

[lori4dogs]

There is only one gospel.

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

Paul wrote that to the Ephesians, a church composed of believers, of course. They were believers which had both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds.

If one does not have faith alone in Christ alone who saves by grace alone, then it is doubtful that that one is saved at all.

If one has faith without works, then it is doubtful that one is saved at all.

 

[DHK]

I hoped I wouldn't have to answer this Billy. I had hoped that you would have been intelligent enough to realize that the English language is broad enough and extensive enough that it uses "synonyms," words that are different but have the same or similar meaning. It makes for more interesting reading. The Holy Spirit is not just confined to one word, "only." He is able to use other words outside of your vocabulary of "only." If that is the "only" word that you can think of that has that meaning, maybe you better expand on your education. But the Holy Spirit is not so confined. "Alone" and "only" are not the only words in the dictionary.

Reader please note the absence of the word "ALONE" in the scripture verse quoted by DHK. Further, please note that the word "ALONE" only appears in DHK's text. Finally, please note that the verse states "For by grace are ye saved through faith..." See? grace AND faith!

So let's examine it:
First lay a groundwork.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Note that grace and works cannot exist together. It is either by grace or by works, but it cannot be by both. So before we go any further into this conversation we eliminate works right away.

Secondly, It is by grace alone, or only by grace that one is saved.
Look up in the preceding verses:

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
--For by grace are you saved. Not by any thing else, but by grace. By grace alone are you saved. Only the grace of God can save you; nothing else can. It is Eph.2:8,9 That I originally quoted to you.

Why is it by grace alone? Because the grace refers to the sacrificial work on the cross that Christ offered in our place. That is the grace referred to. Nothing can replace that. God reaches down to humanity through the grace of Christ offered on the cross, and through that grace alone, offers him salvation. That grace alone can save. There is no other way. Salvation is by grace alone.

You display your typical MO here DHK - quote one verse to prove (or disprove) a seminal doctrine without regards to the rest of scripture.

hmmm, Who is the one not giving Scripture??

In lieu of blasting each other with cherry picked verses, why not look at the question from a logical standpoint. Here are a few logical questions for you DHK...

Back to your flawed questions later.
Next you must realize that salvation in not just by grace alone;
It is by faith alone. It is by faith alone because it says it is.
For by grace are ye saved "by faith" and that not of yourselves.
It does not say by faith plus anything else. It is faith plus zero, or faith alone. It is faith, and that not of yourselves or nothing you can do. It says it is alone, by the following descriptive phrases which you conveniently ignore.
--That not of yourself. It is by faith alone, because it is not of anything you can do.
--Not of works. It is by faith alone, because it is not of works.
--a gift of God. It is by faith alone, because it is a gift of God. It can't be worked for.
It is by faith alone because these two verses have so defined it to be. But as I said previously, if "only" or "alone" are the only two words in your vocabulary then you have a problem, and it seems that you have a serious problem if you cannot see that salvation is "by faith alone."

1. If we are saved by faith alone, then we don’t need to love anyone do we, even God in order to be saved?

This is really an absurd statement. You know it and all who are reading it know it.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
--Salvation is all about responding to the love of Christ. It is the Holy Spirit working in a person's heart. We respond to the Holy Spirit's work. Christ first loved us. We accept his love. We accept it in faith, in faith alone.

After one is saved then that same Holy Spirit gives us the capacity to love others and even a greater love for the one that first loved us.

However, if we do indeed need to love in order to be saved then we are not saved by faith alone are we?

You did not have the capacity to love God before you were saved.
You hated him. You ran from him. You tried to find God like a criminal searched for a police station. You never did find God. You didn't want to. It was God that found you. You so-called "love" for God before you were saved had nothing to do with your salvation because you were not capable of loving Him.

We are saved by faith AND love (faith working through love) (Galatians 5:6).

Paul is speaking of the Christian walk there, not salvation.

If however, one is saying that we do not need love in order to get to heaven, then one must believe that we can get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man.

Entirely correct. You don't have love before you are saved.
Read and understand:

Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

That describes you if you are not saved.
That described you before you were saved. It is a description of the unsaved man. He does not have love.

 

[DHK]

2. If it is faith alone without love (some translations use the word charity), then why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith?
"But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is faith"? No. It’s love. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing that we can obtain, and it is by faith alone that we obtain it, then faith should be greater than love right? Unfortunately, the bible says differently.

It is a moot point seeing it is not speaking of salvation.
It is a moot point seeing that it is directed to Christians only.
If you must know the answer, love is greater because love will last longer. Faith and Hope will cease to exist at the coming of Christ. But love will go on and endure forever.

3. If you have faith but not works can your faith save you? If one were to answer yes to this question, then one contradicts scripture. (James 2:14-17)

This has been explained ad infinitum, and if done so again, I doubt if you would accept it. The basic teaching of James is simply that works is an outgrowth or the fruit of one's faith. A believer will show works in his life. If not taken in the context of the entire book you will get the wrong meaning--every time. There are no contradictions in the Bible.

4. If salvation by faith alone is one of the most seminal of Christian doctrines, then why do the words faith and alone appear together only once in scripture? And that is to say that we are NOT justified or saved by faith alone (James 2:24).

The Holy Spirit is not confined to Billy's vocabulary (thankfully!)
The words "alone" or "only" to not even have to be used to teach it.
For example:
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--One doesn't have to insert the word "alone" to know that that is what it teaches. If you had to insert something after "faith", then theoretically one could insert anything they wanted to, like "justified by faith, (and eating blue cheese)" It teaches "justified by faith" and nothing more, which means justified by faith alone.

5. Is whether or not we have faith, God’s sole criteria for judging us worthy of salvation? If the answer is no, then it is not salvation by faith alone, is it? If however one were to answer yes to this question, then why does every passage in the New Testament dealing with judgment say that we will be judged by our works? For example Matthew 24, John 15, Romans 2, Revelation 20, and many, MANY more.

We are speaking of salvation, not judgment. Those are two different subjects.

6. Jesus tells us in John 6:27, to labor for the food that leads to eternal life. That doesn’t sound like faith alone does it? Laboring in this context is clearly suggestive of faith AND works.

Jesus made a play on words. Are you like the Jews and could not understand his words also?
Labor and faith are put together. What must we do? Jesus said "Believe."
The only thing one can do is to believe. There are no works for salvation. Believe or have faith (not a work), is the only thing one can do to be saved.

7. Do we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God? If one were to answer yes to this question, then we are not saved by faith alone.

You don't have that capacity until you accept God's forgiveness and are saved. You don't know what love is until you are saved. You don't know what forgiveness is until you are saved.

After all, we cannot be saved, if our sins are not forgiven by God. And if we cannot have our sins forgiven by God if we do not forgive others, then we cannot be saved.

The first statement is right; the second statement is wrong. Who put conditions on God's forgiveness? Not God. He will forgive all who come to him.

Therefore, we are forgiven by faith, and at least one work; the act of forgiving others of their sins against us. If, however, one responds with no to the above question, then one is going against what Jesus commanded in Matthew 6:14.

In Mat.6:14 Jesus was speaking to his disciples, saved individuals, and was not speaking of salvation.

8. Where in scripture does it say that we are saved by faith alone?

Thankfully the Holy Spirit is not confined to Billy's vocabulary.
Saying and teaching are two different things.
Also, the Bible is written in Hebrew and Greek, not in King James English.
It teaches it in Rom.5:1; Eph.2:8,9; Acts 16:31; Acts 10:43; John 3:16; John 3:36; 1John 5:10-13; etc. Over and over it teaches this wonderful truth, that a man is saved by faith alone.

As with Sola Scriptura, there are insurmountable scriptural and logical errors with the man-made doctrine of Sola Fide.

You have been reading man's philosophy and not the Bible.

 

[lori4dogs]

Sorry, DHK, but true “saving faith” is never alone. We know that “saving faith” is always accompanied by good works (see the book of James), of which the 'first and foremost' is believing in Christ as our Lord and Savior.

 

[lori4dogs]

The following comes from the 'Joint Declaration' and makes me wonder if people like DHK even bothered to read it:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - not the result of works" (Eph 2:8f).

11.Justification is the forgiveness of sins (cf. Rom 3:23-25; Acts 13:39; Lk 18:14), liberation from the dominating power of sin and death (Rom 5:12-21) and from the curse of the law (Gal 3:10-14). It is acceptance into communion with God: already now, but then fully in God's coming kingdom (Rom 5:1f). It unites with Christ and with his death and resurrection (Rom 6:5). It occurs in the reception of the Holy Spirit in baptism and incorporation into the one body (Rom 8:1f, 9f; I Cor 12:12f). All this is from God alone, for Christ's sake, by grace, through faith in "the gospel of God's Son" (Rom 1:1-3).

12.The justified live by faith that comes from the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17) and is active through love (Gal 5:6), the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22f). But since the justified are assailed from within and without by powers and desires (Rom 8:35-39; Gal 5:16-21) and fall into sin (1 Jn 1:8,10), they must constantly hear God's promises anew, confess their sins (1 Jn 1:9), participate in Christ's body and blood, and be exhorted to live righteously in accord with the will of God. That is why the Apostle says to the justified: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil 2:12f). But the good news remains: "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom 8:1), and in whom Christ lives (Gal 2:20). Christ's "act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all" (Rom 5:18).

 

[DHK]

Sorry, DHK, but true “saving faith” is never alone. We know that “saving faith” is always accompanied by good works (see the book of James), of which the 'first and foremost' is believing in Christ as our Lord and Savior.

James was written to Christians not unbelievers. His purpose in writing was different. But no matter how many times you have been told that or in how much detail that will be explained to you, you will not accept it. Your answer will simply be: the same old; the same old. It does get tiring.

However, it gets just as tiring that in so many other places in the Bible it is repeated not of works!!
For by grace are ye saved... NOT OF WORKS.

But if you won't believe the Bible, you won't believe God.
Then who will you believe? The charlatans in the RCC, I suppose?

 

[lori4dogs]

Of course it is not of works. It is by faith accompanied by works.