Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

[Dr. Walter]

I am still waiting to hear the answer to this --
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1555143&postcount=6

Has the new level of agreement resulted in a re-thinking of the excommunication of Luther?

in Christ,

Bob

The actual wording concerning justification by faith compromises not only Luther's position and the position of the Reformers but it compromises the Biblical position. The omission of the word "sola" or "only" changes the whole nature of this document to be a compromise with Catholicism. The Bibical positions is best stated "justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works."

 

[Dr. Walter]

We are not saved by faith alone but we are justified by faith alone and there is a difference. The term "save" or "salvation" is far more inclusive whereas "justified" in the Context of Romans 3:24-5:2 is very restrictive and refers to a complete action in the past prior to observance of ceremonial ordinances or law keeping.

Faith that justifies is not faithfulness. Justifying faith is ALWAYS said to be "in" something whereas faithfulness always refers to doing something.

The Biblical doctrine of righteousness by imputation through faith is how the "ungodly" are justified "without works" - Rom. 4:5. They are "ungodly" in regard to their personal faithfulness to God when they are justified as a completed past tense action. This can only be possible by imputation as impartation would deny they were "ungodly" when justified.

continued…



Well scripture says that there is and I’ve shown you this before:
Here it is again:

"I have been saved"
Ephesians 2:4-5:
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

"I am being saved"
1 Corinthians 1:18:
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 15:2 “Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain”.

"I will be saved"
Mark 13:13:
You will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Rom 5:9 “How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath”.

Acts 2:41-47
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Like it or not, salvation is clearly a process.



You keep saying that, yet you can never provide one scripture stating that we are saved by faith alone.



If by that you mean that I lack the teaching of puritanical zealots, then I would agree with you.

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
And who are you to know what is in my heart or anyone’s for that matter – this is simply more utter and unadulterated pap!

That is not a good way to refer to God and His Word.
I only take the same position as the Bible and quote it. Don't get angry at the messenger.

Stop playing the victim DHK.

You just venting at God. I am only telling you what he says. What does he say about your good works, the state of your heart, etc. before you are saved? This really got you worked up didn't it?

I’m not venting at God – I am only pointing out the pomposity of your post(s).

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--The Bible here likens the natural man to an unclean thing, and all of his good works or righteousnesses as filthy rags--totally useless worthless rags, only good to be thrown in the trash. So, are your good works before salvation. Works do not save. They are useless.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
--The answer to the three rhetorical questions is NO. You can't even do good, even if you try.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
--Take a good look at your heart.

Again – what is “in my heart” is of concern to God and not you. I neither want nor need advice from you in the matter.

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
Really, and what chapter and verse does he state that he was speaking of “…the Christian walk … not salvation”?

You referred to Galatians 5:6. That is the reference you gave without quoting it:

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Let's see...

“Faith that worketh by love”
Translation: faith WORKING by love – I.e. NOT by faith alone.

--Paul is writing to believers. Read verse one. Read the entire context. He is writing to believers about their Christian walk. It is a walk of faith that is accompanied by love. That is how the Christian walk is to be lived. Circumcision plays no part in the Christian walk.

I never said that circumcision played a part in the Christian walk. Further, you completely dodged my question – again!

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
Really DHK – I am surprised! Surely you know that Paul is quoting the Old Testament here.
Psalm 53:1-5 (King James Version)

And this has any relevance why? All of the authors of the NT quote or refer at one time or another to the OT. Is that unusual to you? Or is it unlawful to you? Why are you condemning Paul? What did he do wrong here? Now this OT passage has become NT passage. It still is truth that you cannot avoid.

I am not avoiding it - I am embracing it!

Let me lay it out for you. You posted the following:

Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: to imply that all men are totally depraved.

I supplied you with the Old Testament showing that in Paul’s reference to the Psalms not everyone was totally depraved. Don’t you think he knew that already before choosing that particular verse?

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
Notice there are two groups being discussed here.

1) the children of men (workers of iniquity)
-- and --
2) my [God’s] people

One of these groups has become filthy; there are none that do good, no, not one – those who eat up my people as they eat bread and have not called upon God.

The other group (God's people) are not the ones being discussed here. It’s pretty clear actually. Again, this scripture just doesn't say what you are trying to make it say.

Paul is not expounding Psalm 53 as you are. He quotes from it, yes. But now the context is different. You must use the NT context, not the OT context.

Oh I see – so the Old Testament context means nothing – especially when it contradicts your positions. Right….

The entire Psalm is not quoted, only those verses which are relevant to what Paul is discussing--the depravity of man.

“…the depravity of man”? hmmm… that sounds mighty Calvinistic to me there, DHK.

The Bible doesn't teach "Billy-philosophy."
Salvation is by faith alone. Thus faith is very important. If the only chapter you read in the Bible was Heb.11 then you might come to the conclusion that faith is the most important thing in the Bible. But you chose 1Cor.13 instead. This chapter is one of three chapters that speak on spiritual gifts. The greatest gift is love. It is greater than the other two mentioned because it will last longer, and that is all.

Salvation is also by grace alone. In that grace you find love. If it weren't for the love of Christ there would be no salvation. You will find both love and faith here:

Please make up your mind. Which is it? faith alone? grace alone? :sleep::sleep::sleep:

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
That is correct – there are no contradictions in scripture which is why you must dance around the scripture that doesn’t agree with you using
unsupportable scriptural gymnastics to hold up you belief system.

So DHK - why is your interpretation any less fallible than mine or anyone's for that matter, hmm...?

Billy, you use your opinions, your philosophy, your arguments, etc.
I use the Word of God, and present you with what God says about various subjects. You can choose to accept it or reject it.

I use the brain that God gave me to think with, and I don’t swallow your particular flavor of fallible interpretation as truth - especially when scripture clearly contradicts it.

Peace!

 

[DHK]

Well I can just as easily turn this around on you DHK.

The Holy Spirit is not subject to the vocabulary of DHK. He is sovereign (hmmm… this sounds suspiciously Calvinistic to me) and can choose the words that he wishes to use. DHK does not command God. You are very arrogant to think that you have commanded God to write the Bible in the way that you [DHK] want it to be written. God wrote the Bible, not you [DHK]. God chose what words should be in the Bible, not you [DHK].

This is more of the same drivel from you DHK.

No drivel; just the plain teaching of the Word of God. You see I accept the Word of God as it is; as it is written; and what it teaches in spite of the way it is written. You don't. Therefore you falsely accuse me.
I accept the way it is written and that it teaches salvation by "faith alone" even though it doesn't use the exact words "faith alone," whereas you demand of God that he must use those exact words, which indeed is ludicrous.

Really – and where did God teach that DHK because you have yet to give me one single verse stating that salvation is by faith alone. However, I have shown you scripture which plainly shows the opposite teaching.

You haven't shown me any Scripture to the contrary; only your misunderstanding of Scripture.
Two Scriptures which you refuse to accept are Romans 5:1 and Eph.2:8,9. Of course, over the matter of this discussion, I have given you many more--all of which you have ignored.

According to who - you? Right… such a scholarly response from you DHK.

Is it scholarly to make a response that "salvation by faith alone is taught all throughout the Scriptures"? It is. But you don't accept scholarship. It seems that you don't accept basic Bible teaching.

Yes - flawed logic is so easily illustrated...

It’s really astounding that DHK will waste so much time flailing away at his keyboard all the while never understanding the underlying problems with the idea of faith “alone”. I assume his ignorance comes from his apparent inability to look at the language itself.

I have looked at many languages. I have studied six and can speak three. What about you?

Let’s start with the definition of the word “alone”, shall we?

Main Entry: 1alone
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈlōn\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from al all + one one
Date: 13th century
1 : separated from others : ISOLATED
2 : exclusive of anyone or anything else : ONLY
3 a : considered without reference to any other
b : INCOMPARABLE, UNIQUE

In other words, if something is alone, then it is necessarily exclusive to anything else. Thus, (bear with me here DHK), if you are on the one hand claiming faith alone is all that is required for salvation, and on the other you say that its grace alone AND faith alone, then you have a fallacy both logically and semantically (not to mention the insurmountable problem with it scripturally). Look DHK – I didn’t coin the phrase “faith alone” Luther did, so deal with it – and deal with you shall – continually.

Your problem is theology.
My faith alone and God's grace alone.
As much as I try to explain this to you, you reject it.
Here it is again.
The object is Christ. He is the object of my faith.
The means is Grace. It is God's grace by which we are saved. There is no other way but by the cross of Christ--his atoning sacrifice.
The reception is by faith. The only way to receive this great gift is by faith. By faith I receive His salvation provided by His grace.
By faith alone I receive Christ alone (no other savior will do) by His grace alone.
--There is no other way of salvation. If you do not believe that you cannot be saved.

That’s complete trash as is evident from actually looking at Eph. 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith.” There you have it DHK – its grace through faith and consequently it cannot be by faith alone.

Do me a favor and don't call God's Word trash!
For by GOD's Grace are you saved by your faith in God's grace, and that not of YOURSELF.
1. God's Grace Alone.
2. Man's Faith Alone.
3. Christ Alone.
--don't call it trash.

Wow – I’ve never seen anyone contradict themselves so much with perfect regularity within the same missive. You just got through stating that:

There is no contradiction between Romans 5:1 and Eph.2:8,9. Obviously you think there is, so you believe the Bible contradicts itself. That is sad.

And now you are saying:

I’ll give you one thing here DHK - at least you are consistently inconsistent.

Both verses teach that one is saved "by faith alone." You haven't figured that out yet??

Quite clear hmmm? It doesn’t say justified by faith “ALONE” does it DHK? You just added that word to scripture. Show me scripture stating that precept, and I will believe you. Unfortunately (and you already know this) you cannot because it doesn’t exist.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
Why should I have to show you the word "alone."
Do you question God? You don't believe him? Did he say something different than that what is said here? You just don't want to believe Romans 5:1, correct?
Maybe you think it should read:
"Being justified by faith and playing with computers, we have peace with God."
--But it doesn't say that. The Holy Spirit didn't add anything to the word "faith." He didn't have to.

Here we go again! Why don’t you do everyone a favor and buy a good dictionary.

Main Entry: co•op•er•ate
Pronunciation: \kō-ˈä-pə-ˌrāt\
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Late Latin cooperatus, past participle of cooperari, from Latin co- + operari to work — more at OPERATE
Date: 1582
1 : to act or work with another or others : act together or in compliance
2 : to associate with another or others for mutual benefit

Do you not act in compliance with God’s grace? You freely accept it don’t you? If you do, then you most certainly cooperate with it.

If you think you must cooperate with God's grace, then you know nothing of the grace of God. No one acts in compliance with the grace of God. It is given freely, and freely accepted though we don't deserve it. Grace is unmerited favor in its general sense. Jesus defined grace when he said that God allows the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust. He makes the sun shine on the just and the unjust. That is grace. God gives us those things which we don't deserve. What did we ever do to deserve God's goodness?

This is more sophistry. When you have a cogent argument please present it.
Look – Paul said it best.

Colossians 1:24: "Now I [Paul] rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church."

Paul doesn’t mean that Christ’s death is insufficient for universal redemption. He is simply saying that his own incorporation into the mystical body of Christ (the Church) means that his sufferings can be helpful for other members of the body (the Colossian Christians to whom he is writing).

Incorporation into the body of Christ and suffering is most certainly cooperation with God’s grace.

Your interpretation is almost blasphemous.
Paul is speaking how he suffered for Christ. There was no cooperation on his part in the sufferings of Christ. He did not help pay for our sins. There was no cooperation with God's grace. How foolish a statement that is.
It was God's grace to mankind that brought us salvation. Man had no part in it. To say that he had any part in it is blasphemy.

Yet, it does not exclude everything else such as love, repentance, forgiveness, and a host of other things that you routinely ignore. Again – you have a real logical problem with your position DHK. The word “alone” is your word and not that of scripture.

continued...

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is by grace alone. It cannot be by works. Works negates grace, and grace negates works. That is the teaching here, and thus grace alone.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--It is by faith alone.
Again, works negates faith, and faith negates works. The two cannot exist together.

Thus it is by grace alone through faith alone by which one is saved.
And Christ alone is the Savior. If you don't understand these most basic truths it is doubtful that one can be saved.

 

[BillySunday1935]

So you take the position that the Bible contradicts itself. I don't.

No – I take the position that some of your beliefs contradict scripture – a fact that is clearly demonstrable from scripture itself which I have provided repeatedly.

The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed. Why are you trying to adulterate the simple gospel message with other doctrinal issues. Those who do such, Paul said "let him be accursed," (Gal.1:8)

I’ll let God handle the judging there DHK as the job is filled and you don’t have the qualifications.

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
And finally...
Romans 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done [works]."

7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger [eternal damnation] .


That’s what judgment is all about DHK and no one can avoid it. Saved or unsaved, we will all be called to account and that is something that both you and I will have to deal with.

But that has nothing to do with the simple message of the gospel--the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Nice dodge. However, it does have to do with the fact that everyone great and small will receive either eternal life or eternal damnation based upon their – wait for it – here it comes… WORKS!

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
That is absolutely incorrect and is really just a matter of common sense. Belief is a mental choice – an assent of the will – an act – a work. You just can’t get around those works can you DHK.

Typing a response to you is work. It involves the work of my fingers on a keyboard. One might say that reading through all this is work. But the simple decision whether to believe or disbelieve what you have to say is not work at all. It is simply a decision.

Take the testimony of Josh McDowell.
He set out to prove Christ wrong--to disprove his deity, that he was not God. All the research he did was work--a great deal of work. The more research he did, the more he was convinced that the claims of Christ were true. Eventually he was saved, for he was convinced of the bodily resurrection and the veracity of the claims of Christ. It was work that he did. But the decision to trust him; the choice that he made; the act of receiving or believing on Him was not a work. There was no work involved.

A decision is a conscious act of the will and, as such, it is a work. I know that doesn’t fit into your twisted theology, but it is a fact.

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
Well, does that mean that the disciples must do something different than the rest of us in order to be saved? It does according to your logic. Again – look at the Sermon on the Mount – the Lord ’s Prayer. Do you actually presume to know that everyone listening to Jesus was saved? That is patently ridiculous. Just look at scripture.

Don't have to look at, what I already have memorized.
Jesus is speaking to his disciples. His disciples are already saved. They don't need to be saved again and again and again. They are already believers. The Lord's Prayer might be more accurately called "The Disciple's Prayer" for it is a model prayer for Christ's disciples to learn how to pray. They asked "Lord teach us to pray."

The Sermon on the Mount was a public event – there were thousands there – many of whom were not necessarily followers of Christ. If you can prove that everyone in ear shot of Jesus was a disciple and already a believer, then please do so. Otherwise, this is nothing more than your personal opinion. Here it is again.

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
The Lord's Prayer
Pray, then, in this way:
Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For Yours is the kingdom
and the power
and the glory forever.
Amen.

For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Why not try looking at the context for once. It also stares you in the face. The context is Jesus teaching his disciples to pray. His disciples did not need salvation. His latter teaching is on the importance of forgiveness. He was not teaching that they would lose their
salvation.

This is ludicrous and tortured logic. If Jesus was only talking to the disciples whom were already saved (Oops – it looks like Judas was saved as well) then why in the world would Jesus himself say:

For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

By your logic at least, the disciples could ignore God’s command here, not forgive others, God would not forgive them, yet they could still enter into heaven without God’s forgiveness. The last time I checked, DHK, no one could enter heaven without God's forgiveness.

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
Yet, ironically, it never EVER says that anywhere in scripture. Sola Scriptura is your metric – not mine.

I quoted many references where the teaching of "faith alone" is taught. You reject them all. Your rejection of Scripture is astounding! Here they are again.

It teaches it in Rom.5:1; Eph.2:8,9; Acts 16:31; Acts 10:43; John 3:16; John 3:36; 1John 5:10-13; etc. Over and over it teaches this wonderful truth, that a man is saved by faith alone.

And not one of those passages says that we are saved by faith alone. And, might I add, neither do you based upon your many contradictory posting on the subject. I have shown you one place in scripture where the idea of faith alone is clearly shown to be incorrect. Shall I post it again? Why not!

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
James 2:24 (King James Version)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
Yes I have – and that would be the man-made philosophies of scripture alone and faith alone.

Peace!

Well, at least you admit that you have been reading man-made philosophies. That is your downfall.

Well…. I’m glad to see that you are making progress there DHK. I mean - admitting to all here that the doctrines of scripture alone and faith alone are man-made philosophies. This really is a red letter day. Mark it on your calendars ladies and gentlemen as history has just been made. :godisgood:

Peace!

 

[DHK]

The Sermon on the Mount was a public event – there were thousands there – many of whom were not necessarily followers of Christ. If you can prove that everyone in ear shot of Jesus was a disciple and already a believer, then please do so. Otherwise, this is nothing more than your personal opinion. Here it is again.

This is ludicrous and tortured logic. If Jesus was only talking to the disciples whom were already saved (Oops – it looks like Judas was saved as well) then why in the world would Jesus himself say:

[/QUOTE]
You don't read well do you? Perhaps you don't read the Bible at all.
Here is what it says:

Matthew 5:1-2 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Though cognizant of the crowd that had gathered, the entire sermon on the mount was directed to his disciples. He taught THEM (the disciples).

 

[BillySunday1935]

No drivel; just the plain teaching of the Word of God. You see I accept the Word of God as it is; as it is written; and what it teaches in spite of the way it is written. You don't. Therefore you falsely accuse me.

Ok ... let me get this straight...
You accept the Word of God as it is written and what it teaches in spite of the way it is written.

So, on the one hand you accept the scripture as it written, yet on the other hand, when it clearly contradicts you, then you accept what it teaches (hmm... who decides that) in spite of the way it is written. Does everyone see this???

I accept the way it is written and that it teaches salvation by "faith alone" even though it doesn't use the exact words "faith alone," whereas you demand of God that he must use those exact words, which indeed is ludicrous.

Its your man-made doctrine not mine. I don't hold to scripture alone so I need not come to its defense.

You haven't shown me any Scripture to the contrary; only your misunderstanding of Scripture.

Oh really? I've shown you this verse multiple times...
James 2:24 (King James Version)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Two Scriptures which you refuse to accept are Romans 5:1 and Eph.2:8,9. Of course, over the matter of this discussion, I have given you many more--all of which you have ignored.

No - I have pointed out to you repeatedly that none of them state that we are saved by faith "alone".

Is it scholarly to make a response that "salvation by faith alone is taught all throughout the Scriptures"? It is. But you don't accept scholarship. It seems that you don't accept basic Bible teaching.

I have looked at many languages. I have studied six and can speak three. What about you?

Perhaps. However, you might want to take a primer on English!

Your problem is theology.
My faith alone and God's grace alone.
As much as I try to explain this to you, you reject it.
Here it is again.
The object is Christ. He is the object of my faith.
The means is Grace. It is God's grace by which we are saved. There is no other way but by the cross of Christ--his atoning sacrifice.
The reception is by faith. The only way to receive this great gift is by faith. By faith I receive His salvation provided by His grace.
By faith alone I receive Christ alone (no other savior will do) by His grace alone.

We are saved by the grace of God and our faith (other than in accepting and cooperating with His grace) has no seminal part in the process. Jesus made the ultimate atonement for our sins - that is what saves us - grace!

--There is no other way of salvation. If you do not believe that you cannot be saved.

So you say DHK.

Do me a favor and don't call God's Word trash!

How arrogant! You actually equate your presonal and fallible interpretation of scripture to God's Word? That is what I proclaimed as trash and I stand by that opinion.

For by GOD's Grace are you saved by your faith in God's grace, and that not of YOURSELF.
1. God's Grace Alone.
2. Man's Faith Alone.
3. Christ Alone.
--don't call it trash.

God's Word isn't but your words most certainly are.

There is no contradiction between Romans 5:1 and Eph.2:8,9. Obviously you think there is, so you believe the Bible contradicts itself. That is sad.

Nope - I have said the exact opposite. Please provide quotes or give it up!

Both verses teach that one is saved "by faith alone." You haven't figured that out yet??

I will say this as many times as you state a false doctrine:

Show me from scripture where scripture states that we are saved by faith "alone". You cannot because it isn't, except in one place and that stands in complete opposition to your position. But you know very well don't you DHK?

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
Why should I have to show you the word "alone."
Do you question God? You don't believe him? Did he say something different than that what is said here? You just don't want to believe Romans 5:1, correct?
Maybe you think it should read:
"Being justified by faith and playing with computers, we have peace with God."
--But it doesn't say that. The Holy Spirit didn't add anything to the word "faith." He didn't have to.

Nor does it say that "Therefore being justified by faith alone" does it?

If you think you must cooperate with God's grace, then you know nothing of the grace of God. No one acts in compliance with the grace of God. It is given freely, and freely accepted though we don't deserve it. Grace is unmerited favor in its general sense. Jesus defined grace when he said that God allows the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust. He makes the sun shine on the just and the unjust. That is grace. God gives us those things which we don't deserve. What did we ever do to deserve God's goodness?

Well, that pretty much knocks out free will then doesn't it, DHK? I mean, if we do not cooperate with God's grace then He is forcing Himself upon us.
Really DHK, you are sounding more like a Calvinist by the minute.

Your interpretation is almost blasphemous.
Paul is speaking how he suffered for Christ. There was no cooperation on his part in the sufferings of Christ. He did not help pay for our sins. There was no cooperation with God's grace. How foolish a statement that is.
It was God's grace to mankind that brought us salvation. Man had no part in it. To say that he had any part in it is blasphemy.

Give the self-righteous attitude a break, will ya? What I said in the post was abundantrly clear. How childish.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--It is by grace alone. It cannot be by works. Works negates grace, and grace negates works. That is the teaching here, and thus grace alone.

I agree that salvation is by grace alone and have stated this numerous times.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--It is by faith alone.

And you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

Again, works negates faith, and faith negates works. The two cannot exist together.

What a fresh load that is ... faith and works cannot coexist together?

James 1:22-24
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

There are many -MANY more DHK.

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

You don't read well do you? Perhaps you don't read the Bible at all.
Here is what it says:

Matthew 5:1-2 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Though cognizant of the crowd that had gathered, the entire sermon on the mount was directed to his disciples. He taught THEM (the disciples).

He went up on to the mountain so that he could address the multitudes. They (the disciples) simply asked him the question which he answered to all that could hear. That's the way he spoke on many occasions in scripture.

Ultimately, if what you say is true (and it isn't), then the Holy Spirit need not have guided anyone to write this down or to even teach it for that matter. After all, it was only for the diciples wasn't it? This is pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself!

Peace!

 

[DHK]

He went up on to the mountain so that he could address the multitudes. They (the disciples) simply asked him the question which he answered to all that could hear. That's the way he spoke on many occasions in scripture.

Ultimately, if what you say is true (and it isn't), then the Holy Spirit need not have guided anyone to write this down or to even teach it for that matter. After all, it was only for the diciples wasn't it? This is pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself!

Peace!

Billy, it is sad that you can't accept the simple gospel account written as it is. If you don't believe what I said, then go check some commentaries out.
The simple truth is that Christ went up to a mountain place--more like the top of a rolling hill. He went there to teach his disciples. That was his first and foremost purpose. But, remember he was very popular, and the crowds followed wherever he went, even when he tried to get away. They found him here teaching his disciples. The crowds grew bigger and bigger as the day wore on. It is doubtful, that although this is the longest sermon of Jesus recorded in the NT, that not all of it is recorded here. The fact is that he was teaching his disciples. The crowds came afterward or gathered as he was teaching his disciples. The teaching was still directed at his disciples. He was teaching his disciples. The Bible says that he was teaching his disciples. If you don't believe the Bible then what will you believe?

Matthew 5:1-2 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

 

[lori4dogs]

Yeah, according to DHK, Judas must have been saved. In John 6:66 we find many disciples 'departed from Jesus'. They no longer followed Him-you know, because of that pesky teaching on the Eucharist- I guess they were just 'back-sliders' like Judas, eh?

 

[DHK]

Yeah, according to DHK, Judas must have been saved. In John 6:66 we find many disciples 'departed from Jesus'. They no longer followed Him-you know, because of that pesky teaching on the Eucharist- I guess they were just 'back-sliders' like Judas, eh?

Any excuse will do, won't it Lori. Any way that you can find to deny what the Bible says. It plainly says that Jesus went up to a mount and there taught his disciples. You don't want to believe that, so you, like Billy, make excuses to deny what the Scriptures say.
This is truly unbelievable.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Any excuse will do, won't it Lori. Any way that you can find to deny what the Bible says. It plainly says that Jesus went up to a mount and there taught his disciples. You don't want to believe that, so you, like Billy, make excuses to deny what the Scriptures say.
This is truly unbelievable.

What is truly unbelievable is your apparent ignorance of how Jesus went about teaching.

Matthew 5:1-2 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Let’s break it down into the historical context to determine the composition of His audience:

The disciples: This would include the twelve as well as a good number of others.

The multitudes: Jesus often taught his disciples while others listened (Luk 20:45). Perhaps only a small group of disciples gathered to listen when Jesus began speaking, but by the time He finished, many people had joined them.

In other words, DHK, you state that only the disciples were being taught but you derive this from a position of silence. The verse does not say whether or not others were there who were also being taught - it just states that he taught them.

However, if we look at the way Jesus spoke and taught, we can see that there is precedence for the widely accepted idea that there were others in attendance.

Luk 20:45
45 And in the hearing of all the people he said to his disciples,

Hmmm... here, he was saying this to his disciples, yet all of the people were in ear shot [hearing]. This sounds just like the Sermon on the Mount.

“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.”

If we do not forgive others, then God will not forgive us. Consequently, if God does not forgive us, we cannot enter into heaven. It’s unambiguous.

You claim that this message was only for the disciples who were already saved, in which case the message is of no import regarding salvation. Yet, this presents a problem with which you have yet to honestly deal.

Either:

1. This message was intended for all peoples, thus it was included in divinely inspired scripture as passed on by the teaching of the apostles.

or

2. It was of no import to the disciples as they were already saved. Thus, the disciples could ignore God’s command here, not forgive others, God would not forgive them, yet they could still enter into heaven without God’s forgiveness, which violates God's requirement that no unclean thing can enter heaven.

I think we all know why you cling to such a skewed interpretation (if you can even call it that) of the passage... and that is, if you admit to point #1 above, then the doctrine of faith alone dies an ignominious death because we are then required to do something in order to be saved - and that something is to forgive others - to love.

Could it be, DHK, that you are just wrong on this one?

Peace!

 

[lori4dogs]

DHK NEVER, EVER ADMITS HE IS WRONG ON ANYTHING! IE: Married priests in the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church.

His arrogance and lack of humility continues to speak loudly of his spiritual condition.

Every time he has been proven wrong beyond any doubt he will then either ignore it or try to divert attention from it.

 

[DHK]

What is truly unbelievable is your apparent ignorance of how Jesus went about teaching.

Matthew 5:1-2 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Let’s break it down into the historical context to determine the composition of His audience:

The disciples: This would include the twelve as well as a good number of others.

The multitudes: Jesus often taught his disciples while others listened (Luk 20:45). Perhaps only a small group of disciples gathered to listen when Jesus began speaking, but by the time He finished, many people had joined them.

In other words, DHK, you state that only the disciples were being taught but you derive this from a position of silence. The verse does not say whether or not others were there who were also being taught - it just states that he taught them.

However, if we look at the way Jesus spoke and taught, we can see that there is precedence for the widely accepted idea that there were others in attendance.

Luk 20:45
45 And in the hearing of all the people he said to his disciples,

Billy, I do not deny that there was a great crowd there. There was. In fact it was massive. It was a huge crowd of people that had gathered. If the geography of the land is studied, Jesus and his disciples were close to the top of the mount (actually a large hill), and as he taught them his voice carried down to the crowds beneath so that others could hear him as well. You might say that he was in such a position that there were "good acoustics."

But that does not negate the fact that his teaching was primarily directed to Christians, that is, his disciples.
That is often the case even today. In our churches our pastors often "feed the flock," give messages that are directed to teaching the saved, even though there may be some unsaved present. We have unsaved present on Wednesday evenings where the time is spent in Bible study and prayer. Unsaved people feel very awkward during prayer time, but they are there--but not expected to pray.

Hmmm... here, he was saying this to his disciples, yet all of the people were in ear shot [hearing]. This sounds just like the Sermon on the Mount.

Yes the sermon on the mount, as the verses you quoted were directed to the disciples in spite of who was there.

“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.”

This is directed to the disciples; to Christians. An unsaved person does not have the capability of asking forgiveness from God, nor will he ever receive forgiveness from God until he is saved. Asking forgiveness from others is irrelevant to the unsaved. It is not going to earn him brownie points with God. God is not going to forgive him anyway. Not until he goes through the precious blood of Christ, is born again of His Spirit will God forgive him of anything. God won't hear one single prayer of his until he is saved. All prayers and prayers of forgiveness directed to God are dumb or mute as far as God is concerned. He does not hear them.

The verse only applies to believers, another indication that he is speaking to his disciples. The verse is not speaking of salvation. It is speaking of a clean heart. One cannot come before God unless he has all sin forgiven. What does the Bible say:

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--God will not hear the believer as long as their is sin in his heart, and that includes the sin of unforgiveness.

If we do not forgive others, then God will not forgive us. Consequently, if God does not forgive us, we cannot enter into heaven. It’s unambiguous.

That is where you are wrong. It says nothing about entering heaven. This has to do with the Christian walk and one's relationship with God.

You claim that this message was only for the disciples who were already saved, in which case the message is of no import regarding salvation. Yet, this presents a problem with which you have yet to honestly deal.

Correct, it has nothing to do with salvation; and of no import regarding salvation.

Either:

1. This message was intended for all peoples, thus it was included in divinely inspired scripture as passed on by the teaching of the apostles.

or

2. It was of no import to the disciples as they were already saved. Thus, the disciples could ignore God’s command here, not forgive others, God would not forgive them, yet they could still enter into heaven without God’s forgiveness, which violates God's requirement that no unclean thing can enter heaven.

Romans 8:1 says "There is therefore now NO condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
--If (before I die) I fail to forgive my brother of some sin, I will still go to heaven. I may lose some reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It may affect my fellowship with God during the time I am angry (if that be the case) with my brother. But it does not affect my salvation.

I think we all know why you cling to such a skewed interpretation (if you can even call it that) of the passage... and that is, if you admit to point #1 above, then the doctrine of faith alone dies an ignominious death because we are then required to do something in order to be saved - and that something is to forgive others - to love.

This has nothing to do with love. Because I do not immediately forgive someone does not mean I do not love them. I love my wife. Is it possible for either a wife or husband to delay forgiveness and still love their spouse. It better be!

Could it be, DHK, that you are just wrong on this one?

No.
Salvation is not by works which is what you imply. That is heresy.
It is through grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone.

 

[DHK]

DHK NEVER, EVER ADMITS HE IS WRONG ON ANYTHING! IE: Married priests in the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church.

His arrogance and lack of humility continues to speak loudly of his spiritual condition.

Every time he has been proven wrong beyond any doubt he will then either ignore it or try to divert attention from it.

You have not proven me wrong on matters concerning the Bible.
Salvation is not of works, which you believe. That is heresy according to the Bible.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

DHK NEVER, EVER ADMITS HE IS WRONG ON ANYTHING! IE: Married priests in the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church.

His arrogance and lack of humility continues to speak loudly of his spiritual condition.

Every time he has been proven wrong beyond any doubt he will then either ignore it or try to divert attention from it.

Hold on Lori and Billysunday. The problem is DHK is Canadian and lives in a predominately Catholic area. He is in the minority. Now as you know many Catholics are marginally that. They think its ok to sin freely as long as they confess and do it again and their lives are just as sick and decrepid as pagans who lived in the ancient Roman empire maybe even more so since there was a morality to Rome. I've been to Quebec and to quote Obi Wan Kenobi "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." Sadly they are Catholic. Sadly it describes some of my family who are also Catholic.

Now the premise of baptist faith hold to Reformed Theology view that Salvation is attained not by works but by faith. You are questioning the very root of that faith and trying to support it by scriptures supporting the Catholic position in the way a Catholic would interpret it. This type of thing automatically puts DHK on the defensive and the best defence is a good offence.

The truth is that the Catholic church says you enter into the kingdom by way of faith with out works. However, once in the kingdom you must continue in sanctification in order to stay within the realm of Salvation. For a baptist Salvation is a point in time that never changes the persons position once it has occured whether or not you work on sanctification though admittedly the reformed view is that if you are in the kingdom your natural inclination is to behave in a manner pleasing christ. If not your salvation in inquired after. You are in effect questioning the very basis of baptist belief. DHK of course is defending it. However, he misstepped believing that everything you say is wrong. When in reality the basis of what you say is wrong but the particulars can be seen to.

So relax a bit and realize that the moral highground for both groups has been eliminated years ago.

 

[lori4dogs]

"The truth is that the Catholic church says you enter into the kingdom by way of faith with out works. However, once in the kingdom you must continue in sanctification in order to stay within the realm of Salvation. For a baptist Salvation is a point in time that never changes the persons position once it has occured whether or not you work on sanctification though admittedly the reformed view is that if you are in the kingdom your natural inclination is to behave in a manner pleasing christ. If not your salvation in inquired after. You are in effect questioning the very basis of baptist belief. DHK of course is defending it. However, he misstepped believing that everything you say is wrong."

And I'm in agreement with you. What I find interesting is that DHK and others single out the Catholic Church and incinuate that it is the only branch of Christianity that believes that a Christian must persevere to the end to be saved. I prefer to go along with the Bible, the Church Fathers, and 2,000 years of consistent teaching on this.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And I'm in agreement with you. What I find interesting is that DHK and others single out the Catholic Church and incinuate that it is the only branch of Christianity that believes that a Christian must persevere to the end to be saved.

The fact is that what you mean by Perservere and what DHK means by Perservere are two different things. You as a Catholic mean you hold on to the faith until you die maintaining it by living in it. DHK and the Baptist and Reformed community mean that you can't help but maintain the faith until the very end. On one hand you are holding on tight to your faith (Catholic) on the other you are carried away (Reformed) by your faith.

 

[Dr. Walter]

That is simply not true! Rome does not teach you enter the kingdom by faith without works. The infant has no faith and baptism administered to him is a work. There is no Biblical precept or example of "proxy faith" toward the gospel or baptism or the Lord's Supper.

I will give you a text that demonstrates Rome/SDA and all those who teach potential apostasy from the state of justification by grace that cannot be answered or refuted. It is not an allegorical or parabolic statement that can be twisted but it is a clear and explicit absolute statement:


Jn6:7 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I gurantee you that any attempted interpretation by any Roman Catholic, SDA or teacher of apostasy will have to repudiate Christ's words found in the bold underscored declaration above. For example:

The Qualified Interpretation: Apostasy teachers try to qualify that statement by verse 40 that it only applies to those who continue believing. However, this is a reversal of the actual stated cause and consquences found in the context.

The Cause of coming to Christ is first being given to Christ by the Father not vice versa - v. 37 "all that the father giveth me shall come to me" - HOW MANY COME? answer: "ALL" the given.

ALL who are given come (v. 37) and "OF ALL" or out of all who are given NONE are lost (v. 29) and ALL who are given are raised (v. 39b) and therefore all who are believing in Christ HAD BEEN GIVEN by the Father to come to Christ in faith.

You cannot use parables, spiritualizations, allegorical passages, ambiguous texts to over turn clear explicit precepts and John 6:37-40 is a clear explicit unambigious absolute precept.

"The truth is that the Catholic church says you enter into the kingdom by way of faith with out works. However, once in the kingdom you must continue in sanctification in order to stay within the realm of Salvation. For a baptist Salvation is a point in time that never changes the persons position once it has occured whether or not you work on sanctification though admittedly the reformed view is that if you are in the kingdom your natural inclination is to behave in a manner pleasing christ. If not your salvation in inquired after. You are in effect questioning the very basis of baptist belief. DHK of course is defending it. However, he misstepped believing that everything you say is wrong."

And I'm in agreement with you. What I find interesting is that DHK and others single out the Catholic Church and incinuate that it is the only branch of Christianity that believes that a Christian must persevere to the end to be saved.

 

[lori4dogs]

Understood. But since DHK (Baptist) and the Reformed usually totally ignore any writings outside of the bible they have no way of knowing if the earliest of Christians held the reformed view or the Catholic view. You and I have read the Early Church Fathers and know they held the Catholic belief.

"Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time" (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).