Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

[lori4dogs]

As he said, he comes from a Catholic family that is well educated in their own faith. He is asking on behalf of them, or seeking answers to give them. Therefore he asks or poses as a Catholic trying to get the right answer for his relatives. This is how I understand Thinkingstuff. He can correct me if I am wrong.

I have been reading Thinkingstuff's posts on this board for a long time now. I've never known him to 'pose as a Catholic'. I have read many of Thinkingstuff's posts in which he honestly states exactly what the Catholic Church teaches in contrast to the what is claimed by so many others on this board. I suggest you re-read his posts and see if you really think he is 'just pretending' to be a Catholic so that he can answer his families questions. He has stated over and over why he is no longer a Catholic but doesn't allow people on this board to continually mis-state what the Catholic Church actually teaches without a challenge.

Nice try, DHK, but I believe Thinkingstuff will clarify his actual intentions for posting as he does.

 

[steaver]

I have been reading Thinkingstuff's posts on this board for a long time now. I've never known him to 'pose as a Catholic'. I have read many of Thinkingstuff's posts in which he honestly states exactly what the Catholic Church teaches in contrast to the what is claimed by so many others on this board. I suggest you re-read his posts and see if you really think he is 'just pretending' to be a Catholic so that he can answer his families questions. He has stated over and over why he is no longer a Catholic but doesn't allow people on this board to continually mis-state what the Catholic Church actually teaches without a challenge.

Nice try, DHK, but I believe Thinkingstuff will clarify his actual intentions for posting as he does.

Maybe you don't know the answer to this, or Thinkingstuff can answer, but why would someone stop being a Catholic if they believe Catholic doctrine is no different than any other Christian denomination on the issue of salvation by grace through faith?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Thinkingstuff said: It fails to question and answer what is qualified as faith. Hebrews 11 says

Quote:
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

It is clear faith became faith when Abraham "Obeyed and Went". In fact, the whole chapter of hebrews is written that way which puts a krink in your baptism argument.

There is a clear distinction between what the writer of Hebrews says faith "is" (Heb. 11:1) versus what is performed "by" faith. Everything that is done "by" faith in Hebrews 11 is consequential to faith as its cause. The consequences can be defined as "faithfulness" but cannot be defined as faith. Faith is always IN an object whereas faithfulness is always a response TO something. Faith is the cause whereas the performance "by" faith is the consequence.

In Hebrew 11:1 the writer defines faith when he says "faith IS the substance of things hoped for." The substance of hope is inseparable from faith. Find the basis for a person's hope and you define the object of His faith.

The kind of faith that pleases God has God's Word and thus God for its basis of hope (Heb. 11:3-4). Thus the faith that pleases God is inseparable from God's Word and thus from God Himself. The remainder of the chapter describes RESPONSES or CONSEQUENCES of having faith in God and His Word for it is in response to that kind of Faith that faithfulness is produced.

In other words, faith is always IN something whereas faithfulness is always a response TO something. The object that faith embraces "is" the substance of hope and as hope embraced within the mind and heart of man it is the evidence not seen. Faith originates within the new heart (Rom. 10:10) prior to any confession with the mouth.

Thus justifying faith is not faithfulness TO God or TO God's word but it is the substance of God's word/promise concerning justification before God which is embraced as the hope of justification.

The word of the Gospel is the substance of hope for justification (Rom. 10:8-10). Justifying faith is nothing more or less than God's promise for justification found in the gospel as the object of faith. Faith does not justify anyone but it is the substance providing hope for justification that justifies. The substance that justifies is the good news that Jesus Christ has satisfied the full demands of God's law in the place of the sinner and it is received simply by faith in the promise of the gospel.

Thus "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:17) and that word is fully described in Romans 10:8-10. However, it is not the gospel coming in "word only" (1 Thes. 1:5) as described in Romans 10:18-20; but it is when the gospel comes empowered by the command of God which creates a believing heart (2 Cor. 4;6; Ezek. 36:26-27) and thus the empowered Gospel not only creates the believing heart but is equally the object this believing heart embraces. That is why repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration and inseparable graces.

However, more important, justifying faith is entirely an internalized sovereign act of God wholly completed prior to confession with the mouth (Ezek. 36:26-27; Deut. 29:4; Rom. 10:10) completely distinct and separate from any exterior acts of "faithfulness." The contents and promise of the gospel is the substance of hope embraced by faith that justifies the sinner before God. Baptism, church membership and other commands of God are the fruits or consequences or those things performed "by" faith.

So, my definition of justifying faith does not put any "krink" in my argument for baptism is a "work" of righteousness produced "by" faith but has absolutely nothing to do with being justified by faith, or receiving infused grace. In Ephesians 2:10 we are first created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works which follow, and baptism is one of those good works that follow, and as such, does not place us "in Christ" regeneratively but only declaratively in symbolic outward manifestation.

 

[DHK]

I have been reading Thinkingstuff's posts on this board for a long time now. I've never known him to 'pose as a Catholic'. I have read many of Thinkingstuff's posts in which he honestly states exactly what the Catholic Church teaches in contrast to the what is claimed by so many others on this board. I suggest you re-read his posts and see if you really think he is 'just pretending' to be a Catholic so that he can answer his families questions. He has stated over and over why he is no longer a Catholic but doesn't allow people on this board to continually mis-state what the Catholic Church actually teaches without a challenge.

Nice try, DHK, but I believe Thinkingstuff will clarify his actual intentions for posting as he does.

1. I have been reading his posts for a long time too.
2. He doesn't pose "as a Catholic." He posts to get Catholic answers.
3. Yes, he can honestly state what the Catholic church teaches (much better than you have been able to express).
4. I suggest you re-read his posts and see if you really think that he is a Catholic. Why don't you believe his testimony or his profile? You should be ashamed of yourself.
Here is what he said concerning himself:

First I'm baptist. I was raised Catholic by an educated Catholic Family that is not the "run of the mill" (so to speak) Catholic family that is represented by people not understanding their faith much less studying it.

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1556380&postcount=67

 

[Dr. Walter]

Neither do the scriptures teach justification by infused grace. The bible teaches justification by faith through IMPUTED righteousness.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Notice that "worketh not" is contrasted to "beleiveth" rather than incorporated with beleiving. Hence justifying faith cannot be defined to include works. The works that Paul is excluding from justification is EVERYTHING a human can possibly do before or after they are justified by faith (Romans 4:17-21).

Justifying faith is defined in Romans 4:17-22 to be something that is without any kind of HUMAN ASSISTANCE.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Notice also that it is the 'ungodly" which is justified not the godly as demanded by the SDA and Roman Catholic religions. The whole purpose of infused grace and infused faith is to grow in grace and faith through obedience in connection with the sacraments so that eventually they will be sufficiently Godly for justification before God. Purgatory by its very name suggests purging of sins in order to be accepted/justified by God.

The term "imputeth" or "reckoned" here means to charge to ones account righteousness through faith. In 2 Cor. 5:21 Christ was "made" to be sin for us. He did not become a sinner as no sin was found in him. Rather our sin was LEGALLY CHARGED to him when he had no sin and thus we are "made" righteous in Him or we who are "ungodly have his righteousness LEGALLY CHARGED to us.

This is illustrated in the book of Philemon when Paul tells Philemon to treat Onesimus as if he were Paul and if Onesimus has ought against him, then charge it to Paul's account.

This is the case in the two representatives in Romans 5:12-21. By one man's sin many were "made" sinners when Adam sinned. He represented mankind by his ACT of disobedience and that ACT was charged to all his posterity because it was a REPRESENTATIVE action. Likewise, by one man's obedience many were "made righteous" or his righteousness was charged to our account. Notice that NO ACTIONS of those being represented are given as the cause for being "MADE" either sinners or righteous but the acts of TWO representative men.

The good news of the gospel is that the righteousness of Christ is CHARGED to the account of the "ungodly" who believes the promise of God and their sins are NOT CHARGED to them but have been charged to Christ.

The SDA and Roman Catholic doctrine of justification is a complete contradiction of this Biblical teaching.

 

[lori4dogs]

1. I have been reading his posts for a long time too.
2. He doesn't pose "as a Catholic." He posts to get Catholic answers.
3. Yes, he can honestly state what the Catholic church teaches (much better than you have been able to express).
4. I suggest you re-read his posts and see if you really think that he is a Catholic. Why don't you believe his testimony or his profile? You should be ashamed of yourself.
Here is what he said concerning himself:
http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1556380&postcount=67

Your assertion that I think he is a Catholic is nothing but a false accusation. Making false accusations is a sin. Show me the post where I say he is a Catholic. You are the one who needs to be ashamed of yourself!

BTW, you said: "Therefore he asks or poses as a Catholic trying to get the right answer for his relatives" Post #76 of this thread. I think if Thinkingstuff was looking to get good Catholic answers he would probably visit the website by that name. Catholics and Protestants debate openly there without banning all but a couple of people like on this board.

Interesting you mention how well Thinkingstuff states the Catholic teaching even better than a Catholic. How many Catholics on this board, DHK? Two or maybe three. The anti-Catholics start threads to attack Catholicism and then you mock and belittle the couple that you actually allow here. What a treat for Jesus! What a farce!

Check out #2 in your post. Don't you remember what you post. Are you going to try and say it was a typo?? SHAME, SHAME, SHAME!

You have questioned RobRyans's salvation, you continue to mock and belittle me and you don't act like someone who has an ounce of love in your heart. Your personal attacks on people over the years along with your incredible arrogance is despicable. You should really ask yourself if Jesus would want you to treat people the way you do.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Maybe you don't know the answer to this, or Thinkingstuff can answer, but why would someone stop being a Catholic if they believe Catholic doctrine is no different than any other Christian denomination on the issue of salvation by grace through faith?

Thats a good question and I would like to answer it. For me personally it a point of Applicability. What works. What is sufficient and what is not. In otherwords when applied does the doctrine work? I can only speak from my experience.

As a baptised Catholic growing up in the tradition of the Church I can tell you I had no real desire for Christ. My father did have me read the bible but I was not ever better off for it. I was told the stories of the saints and was not really inspired. I desired sin and desired it openly. My family though Catholic through and through and very knowledgable about Catholic Doctrine and scriptures fell apart very easily. My father is twice married (once to a budhist from vietnam) and my mother never re-married but had a long affair with an indian Zoharastrian. My mother, I must say was never catholic and dabbled in the occult. My father much too consumed with his work neglected all spiritual growth in the family. I knew "stuff" but did it matter? Not really. And there is something disarming about a particular Catholic view to a young person. You can not be sure of success of heaven until you have perservered unto the end. And like I explained to Lori the difference between perserverance from a catholic perspective and a reformed one is that for a Catholic they grip tight to their salvation hoping and praying to never let go of it and for the reformed person they are carried way by their salvation and cannot but perservere. So logically for a young person if there is no assurance that at a moment of sin and weakness or anger and rebellion you let go all that had been gained over the years will be lost and certainly there are scripture verses that hold to this view. I personally couldn't countenance that type of issue. Also had my personal life and struggles with sin ever improve haveing been catholic and participating in the sacraments? On a personal level, no it hadn't. I still prefered sin to righteousness.

Having my first protestant exprience at RVA (a great missionary school in East Africa btw for which I praise God continually) opened my eyes. First of all I must say the missionaries that I encountered there are the cream of the crop of the faith. Wonderful people who are very less judgemental than many on this site. In many way's Catholicism is very complicated and only academics know everything it teaches. These missionaries made the Gospel very simple and attainable to me. More than that I saw faith in action. Lives of success in their native countries to share the gospel, food, medical attention to other not as fortunate. People with a real gospel heart. Scriptures and faith became less an academic one and very real for me. Based on their examples and the assurance presented to me (one serious problem with the Catholic church but not for the reasons given like they are works based which is why I often try to clarify that this is not so. Any Catholic will tell you.) And the "guarantee" (so to speak) that once surrendering your life to Christ a new nature is implanted. Having said the sinners prayer (alter call). I felt nothing. No emotion. However, I had for the first time a greater desire for Christ than my own sin! Two weeks later that hit home and I was filled with Joy along with the assurance that God would never leave me nor forsake me despite my own issues. Now that was a relief! I must say I didn't leave the Catholic Church right away. It was after a long time of prayers and study with priest and brothers (monks) that I saw the divergance of a changed heart (my own) and academic knowledge of faith. I left the church at that point and unfortuantely went on a search for the a church that taught the full truth. It led me to Calvary type churches, Non-denominational churches, Pentecostal Churches, vinyard churches, Independent (certain ones are very legalistic) baptist churches, and southern baptist churches. I prefer the baptist churches for their study material, sensibilities, emphasis on scripture and the study of it. Most pastors I get along with have gone to Gordon Conwell. And among the Baptist I like the communities that work to help each other grow and have good outreach programs. So in the end the application of faith in a changed life and desiring after God worked "beter" than what I had in the Catholic faith. And currently I attend a SBC and enjoy many of the members. I don't hold to all of reformed theology though I certainly hold certain views particular to reformed theology I can't say I buy them hook line and sinker. Though there is a move in my church for many members to do exactly that.
Now once I left the Catholic church I lost my family. Seriously. My mother although having dabbled in cultish practices didn't speak to me for almost 20 years. My father cut me off from any financial help and verbal support because I was a "screwed up Protestant". He could not speak to me save to argue theology with me. It didn't matter (it seemed to me) whether I was stuggling or not. If I was it was because I was protestant. I had to make my own way while watching my siblings have their college paid for; have their first cars paid for; when they had no place to go they could always return home. Not so with me. When I first came back to the states and struggled after graduating from college I had no place to turn. The Lord protected me and kept me but you have no idea. At times I envied people who could just go home. I couldn't. It was a struggle. But in the end. I have a brother who is in and out of Jail. I have another brother who can't even afford to keep his family without my father's support. My sister has cheated on her husband and their relationship is struggling. My wife and I keep sharing the gospel with them as we can and lift up our family as an example to them of what God can do. My mother has been the most affected by this and in the last 5 years has been speaking with me again. So in the end its a question of what works and applicability.
Does this make everything the Catholics say untrue. No. But it sure redirects emphasis. I tend to just be honest about what it is they say they believe rather than place on them propaganda. They have many problems but as I've said non of them are ever breached here. Are they the ancient faith. In some respects yes in others no. But my contention has always been we can never go back to the infant church. We have evolved from it. Society and morae's have changed. Can we take on aspects? Yes. However, one thing is certain. The scriptures are the very word of God no matter if your Catholic or Baptist.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

As he said, he comes from a Catholic family that is well educated in their own faith. He is asking on behalf of them, or seeking answers to give them. Therefore he asks or poses as a Catholic trying to get the right answer for his relatives. This is how I understand Thinkingstuff. He can correct me if I am wrong.

Yes for the most part. My father has stumped me many times. And since I haven't gone to seminary it sure helps to have a broader view. On other occassions something I know not to be true of Catholics I defend in the hopes that if you come accross a catholic like Lori you won't keep using the same material that has been debunked time and again. The Catholic especially the educated ones are very academic. I've read systematic theology of Thomas Aquinas(Catholic), and Carl Barth(protestant) and its on this level I find many catholics will discuss on. If they see "you are a works based faith" they will laugh and consider you uneducated. Which is a challenge.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Unmeritorious works?

Romans 11:6 is a definition of grace by contrast just as Ephesians 2:8-9 is definition of grace by contrast. The stated contrast is "works."

However, many are interpreting "works" as meritorious works in Romans 11:6 and Ephesians 2:9 versus unmeritorious works as in Eph. 2:10b.

Thus their message is that we are not saved by meritorious works but we are saved by grace inclusive of unmeritorious works. Thus when they speak of grace they include church membership, baptism, and all other "good" works.

However, this is simply an attempt to redefine grace and works completely.The message of the Gospel is that the only works that justify a sinner are those performed in the life and death of Jesus Christ plus or minus nothing provided from or through the sinner.

In Romans 4 Paul methodically presents justification by faith so that there is no possible opportunity that one can insert any kind of personal performance as inclusive of justification by faith or within the definition of grace.

Here is the key to dealing with those theologues that say they deny works and believe in grace alone for salvation but yet incorporate the church, ordinances and personal performance into their definition of grace.

 

[Dr. Walter]

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 ¶ (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

This is the last section of the developed argument by Paul on what is and what is not justification by faith. In Verses 1-4 justification is before God and not of the flesh but by gace. In verses 5-8 Justification of the ungodly without works and by faith. Justification is defined in two aspect - imputation of righteousness and non-imputation of sin.

In Verses 9-13 justification by faith is a completed action before administration of ordinances and therefore is without ordinances and thus non-sacramental. In verses 14-15 justification by faith is without law keeping. In verses 16-22 justification by faith is without personal performance or human assistance but all of grace.

Verse 16 states it is by faith so that it might be "of grace" in order that the promise might be "sure" to "ALL" the seed. In verse 17 Paul limits it to only those things that God can do and must do without human assistance - raise the death, and call things into existence that are not yet existent. Verses 18-22 how it is the power of God that makes sure his promise comes to pass without the assistance of Abaham or Sarah and that justifiying faith is eliminates any kind of personal assistance on their part but rather consists in "being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform" This alone is the basis for imputation of righteousness (v. 22).

The final verses of chapter four make the direct application to us indicating clearly that "faith" defined as "being fully persuaded that, what he had promised he was also able to perform" is the kind of faith that justifies us in regard to the promise found in the gospel:

23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification

Romans 5:1-2 denies that justification by faith is an ongoing progressive action. Rather Paul uses Aorist and Perfect tense verbs to demonstrate this is a completed action in the past that stands finished presently and that is why we have "peace" now.

Thus faith is defined as "being fully persuaded that what he had promised he was able to perform." Faith is the substance or basis for hope. Justifying faith is in the promise of God as defined in the gospel, this is the substance of hope and thus inseparable from faith. Faith merely lays hold of God's promise as its only baiss for hope. Thus Christ and Christ alone is our "blessed hope" for salvation.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Romans 11:6 is a definition of grace by contrast just as Ephesians 2:8-9 is definition of grace by contrast. The stated contrast is "works."

However, many are interpreting "works" as meritorious works in Romans 11:6 and Ephesians 2:9 versus unmeritorious works as in Eph. 2:10b.

Thus their message is that we are not saved by meritorious works but we are saved by grace inclusive of unmeritorious works. Thus when they speak of grace they include church membership, baptism, and all other "good" works.

However, this is simply an attempt to redefine grace and works completely.The message of the Gospel is that the only works that justify a sinner are those performed in the life and death of Jesus Christ plus or minus nothing provided from or through the sinner.

In Romans 4 Paul methodically presents justification by faith so that there is no possible opportunity that one can insert any kind of personal performance as inclusive of justification by faith or within the definition of grace.

Here is the key to dealing with those theologues that say they deny works and believe in grace alone for salvation but yet incorporate the church, ordinances and personal performance into their definition of grace.

Again you are mistaken. But based on a common misconseption regarding Salvation as the Catholic Church defines it. Salvation encompases more than just Justification according to the Catholic church therefore you enter the door to the kingdom upon baptism and faith. After Justification or the transmutation from being a child of Adam to a child of God your work do credit yourself (they don't earn you salvation but once in the realm of salvation they are meritorious) thus they see the scripture verse

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

They believe all will be judged by those things we do. Those who reject Christ cannot do enough to merrit salvation yet those who believe Christ will merrit rewards.

3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked

because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Faith versus the work of Faith

Faith worketh by love. Love is the motivating force that moves faith into action. Good works are the manifest fruit of faith or faithfulness. However, the work of faith and faith are not one and the same. It is a differnce between cause and consequences.

Justifying faith is the persuasion that Christ has satisfied the law completely in the place of the sinner and eternal life is free to those who believe this promise of the gospel. Faith IS the substance or basis for ones hope and the gospel promise constitutes the substance or basis as the only hope for justification. Thus the faith is "justifying" faith because of the substance of God's promise not because of faith. Faith simply lays hold of the promise as the substance of for the hope of justification.

Justifying faith is always IN an object whereas faithfulness is always response TO love shed abroad in our hearts because of our standing of grace through justification rather than in order to obtain justification.

The ability to be fully persuaded in the gospel promise as the only hope of justification is a "gift" of God. It is inherent ability provided in the "new heart" God sovereingly bestows by regeneration (Ezek. 36:26-27; 2 Cor. 4:6 with Eph. 4:18). It is the elective grace of God (Rom. 9:20-24 with 2 Thes. 2:13 along with 1 Thes. 1:4-5).

Paul tells the Thessalonican's how they can know if they are the elect of God:

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Jn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Dr. Walter]

First, let me say I enjoyed reading your testimony and can emphathize with your situation but on another level.

Second, your explanation confirms exactly what I have said. However, let me step you through your own explanation by a question and answer process and then let you answer the final question:

QUESTION. How does one become a child of God or enter the kingdom or obtain justification or receive infused grace according to Rome?

ANSWER: through baptism

QUESTION: How does Rome define the act and reception of baptism in connection with the terms "works" versus "grace"?

YOUR ANSWER PLEASE

Again you are mistaken. But based on a common misconseption regarding Salvation as the Catholic Church defines it. Salvation encompases more than just Justification according to the Catholic church therefore you enter the door to the kingdom upon baptism and faith. After Justification or the transmutation from being a child of Adam to a child of God your work do credit yourself (they don't earn you salvation but once in the realm of salvation they are meritorious) thus they see the scripture verse They believe all will be judged by those things we do. Those who reject Christ cannot do enough to merrit salvation yet those who believe Christ will merrit rewards.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Rome cannot deny that baptism earns salvation and yet at the same time deny salvation is unobtainable without baptism. If an action by man is REQUIRED to obtain salvation then that action by its very nature is meritorious as salvation cannot be obtained apart from that human action.

Again you are mistaken. But based on a common misconseption regarding Salvation as the Catholic Church defines it. Salvation encompases more than just Justification according to the Catholic church therefore you enter the door to the kingdom upon baptism and faith. After Justification or the transmutation from being a child of Adam to a child of God your work do credit yourself (they don't earn you salvation but once in the realm of salvation they are meritorious) thus they see the scripture verse They believe all will be judged by those things we do. Those who reject Christ cannot do enough to merrit salvation yet those who believe Christ will merrit rewards.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Faith worketh by love. Love is the motivating force that moves faith into action. Good works are the manifest fruit of faith or faithfulness. However, the work of faith and faith are not one and the same. It is a differnce between cause and consequences.

This is not true. There are two terms at work which you've combined into one word "Faith". In reality this does not work. The two terms you've applied into one word is belief and Faith. These are two different things one is an aspect of the other but it can stand alone. That term is Belief. it is clearly represented here in James

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

I can tell you that I know the place you are standing on will become a sink hole and will swallow you whole. Now this may seem reasonable to you, or even very likely to you, you may even believe me but if you do nothing then your belief is void. Once you move to a place of safety you have exhibited faith.

Justifying faith is the persuasion that Christ has satisfied the law completely in the place of the sinner and eternal life is free to those who believe this promise of the gospel. Faith IS the substance or basis for ones hope and the gospel promise constitutes the substance or basis as the only hope for justification. Thus the faith is "justifying" faith because of the substance of God's promise not because of faith. Faith simply lays hold of the promise as the substance of for the hope of justification.

Again you have mixed up a couple of things and placed them into one catagory. First off you've misapplied faith to equate it with belief. But faith without action as can be recalled in James is not faith. Faith cannot be faith without "laying hold of the promise". Somehow you mix in the term Justifying faith. So am I to assume that justification is just belief? If so you've ignored Justification. It is more than a legal term of declaration. 1 Jn 1:7

7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[a] sin.

2 Pet 1:8-9

8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

Titus 3:5-7

5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Romans 2:13

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

2 Peter 1:4

Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Justifying faith is always IN an object whereas faithfulness is always response TO love shed abroad in our hearts because of our standing of grace through justification rather than in order to obtain justification.

The above verses question this statement.

The ability to be fully persuaded in the gospel promise as the only hope of justification is a "gift" of God. It is inherent ability provided in the "new heart" God sovereingly bestows by regeneration (Ezek. 36:26-27; 2 Cor. 4:6 with Eph. 4:18). It is the elective grace of God (Rom. 9:20-24 with 2 Thes. 2:13 along with 1 Thes. 1:4-5).

This is compatable with Catholic thought.

Paul tells the Thessalonican's how they can know if they are the elect of God:

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Jn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

From the Catholic perspective this is also compatable.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Rome cannot deny that baptism earns salvation and yet at the same time deny salvation is unobtainable without baptism. If an action by man is REQUIRED to obtain salvation then that action by its very nature is meritorious or salvation cannot be obtained.

They can and they have. Its your misunderstanding of how the sacraments work. If you have no faith the sacrament, even practice, is of no value to salvation save that it works on the unregenerate heart the way reading scripture does. It plants a seed.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

First, let me say I enjoyed reading your testimony and can emphathize with your situation but on another level.

Second, your explanation confirms exactly what I have said. However, let me step you through your own explanation by a question and answer process and then let you answer the final question:

QUESTION. How does one become a child of God or enter the kingdom or obtain justification or receive infused grace according to Rome?

ANSWER: through baptism

QUESTION: How does Rome define the act and reception of baptism in connection with the terms "works" versus "grace"?

YOUR ANSWER PLEASE

Questioned not fully answered. Faith comes first. Baptism does as it signifies for the faithful.

2nd question works can not be in effect until grace is.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Paul defines justifying faith to be "firmly persuaded" in regard to God's power and promise. (Rom. 4:21). Hebrews 11:1 defines faith to be inseparable from the substance of ones hope and thus defines faith the same way Paul does in Romans 4:21.

The emphasis of James is not on the definition of faith but on the product of faith or what is done "by" faith as the visible evidence of faith. James is not talking about justification by faith "BEFORE GOD" but before men "show me." The supposed case is not addressing God but is addressing men "if a man say TO ME." The subject is not demonstrative proof of justification before God but evidential justification before men. James is concerned by the visible evidence supportive of the mouth profession.

For example, look at the last words the Old Testament Scriptures give to describe Lot in Genesis - drunk and in incest. His profession was so bad that his own family members would not heed his warnings or leave the city. However, Peter informs us by inspiration alone that his heart was vexed even though his actions were inconsistent with his heart.

If you don't grab the distinction between James 2 and Romans 4 you have no hope of helping Catholics.

This is not true. There are two terms at work which you've combined into one word "Faith". In reality this does not work. The two terms you've applied into one word is belief and Faith. These are two different things one is an aspect of the other but it can stand alone. That term is Belief. it is clearly represented here in James I can tell you that I know the place you are standing on will become a sink hole and will swallow you whole. Now this may seem reasonable to you, or even very likely to you, you may even believe me but if you do nothing then your belief is void. Once you move to a place of safety you have exhibited faith.



Again you have mixed up a couple of things and placed them into one catagory. First off you've misapplied faith to equate it with belief. But faith without action as can be recalled in James is not faith. Faith cannot be faith without "laying hold of the promise". Somehow you mix in the term Justifying faith. So am I to assume that justification is just belief? If so you've ignored Justification. It is more than a legal term of declaration. 1 Jn 1:7 2 Pet 1:8-9 Titus 3:5-7 Romans 2:13 2 Peter 1:4


The above verses question this statement.


This is compatable with Catholic thought.

From the Catholic perspective this is also compatable.

 

[Dr. Walter]

They can and they have. Its your misunderstanding of how the sacraments work. If you have no faith the sacrament, even practice, is of no value to salvation save that it works on the unregenerate heart the way reading scripture does. It plants a seed.

What you are doing mentally in this debate is divorcing your mind from the Biblical position and defending the Catholic position only on its own merits. Just because a person tells you a black dog is white does not make the dog white and just because Rome tells you that baptism is not a work does not make it so.

An infant has no faith AT ALL - that is reality - not the Catholic reality but the reality called TRUTH. Therefore faith does not precede baptism even though that is not the Catholic reality it is the reality called TRUTH.

Thus Rome is reinventing the Biblical term "grace" to include "works" making baptism the means of grace through the work of baptism.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The TRUTH is that infants possess no faith at all and yet are subjected to baptism as a means of regeneration. Therefore, faith does not precede baptism except in the heretical mind of a Catholic. Thus Catholic "grace" comes through the "work" of baptism without the reality of faith.

Therefore, Catholic grace is "of works" despite the theological twist and outright lie invented to insert faith into the infant by proxy before baptism.

Questioned not fully answered. Faith comes first. Baptism does as it signifies for the faithful.

2nd question works can not be in effect until grace is.