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Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

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Dr. Walter

New Member
ultimately then by your "human observation" there is no difference saved in perceived semantics.

Jesus directly addressed the question can any who genuinely come to him in faith - beleiving can ever be lost. He addressed it in specifically and in absolute terms:

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

He is addressing those who were listening to him as they see him and yet they refused to believe in him (v.. 36). He then directly explains why they were able to both see and hear him and yet reject Him. They had not been given to him by the Father, because ALL that are given by the Father come to him (v. 27) and ALL that the father giveth unto "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING".

1. Jesus attributes the cause for coming as being given - not vice versa.
2. Jesus denies that any given will not come
3. Jesus denies that any given will be lost - Hence all given = all come = none lost.

Every interpretation of scriptures to teach apostasy of true beleivers is forced to repudiate Christ's statement "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING". Either He shall lose or he shall not lose some the father gave him as they are the ONLY ones who come to him. I will take Christ's word and charge others with misinterpreting scriptures.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
The greek grammar calls on the PLURAL to repent but changes to the singular "every one of you" which has reference to only those who obey that initial command. The qualification "repent" for baptism necessarily excludes all who cannot demonstrate repentance to the administrator. John would not baptize anyone who showed no fruits of repentance (Mt. 3:6-8). The grammar restricts baptism to those who repent..
It can be viewed at both ways you have to be seriously jaded not to see that.

Repentance and faith are required prior to baptism (Acts 8:35-37; Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:41; etc.).
No argument here.


Children can repent but infants cannot. Children can believe but infants cannot as they have no ability to discern right from wrong and this is the very argument given by Paul to prove that all mankind were represented by Adam when he sinned because death occurs to those who do not sin willfully as did Adam (Rom. 5:12-15).

No one has suggested anything else. I don't know why you bring it up.

Adam's sin was WILLFUL and DETERMINATE (I Tim. 2:12-13) but those who did not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression die. Paul is proving that Adam's one sin brought death upon the whole human race because even infants and those incapable of discernment suffer death and thus death cannot be attributed to them by any act of PERSONAL sin.

No one argues this point either which again I have no Idea why you bring it up.

Romans 7:6-11 Paul argues that even in adults that individual condemnation occurs only when LIGHT of discernment brings sin to life and man choose to sin thus bringing condemnation upon him. Hence, infants are safe until they are capable of discerning right and wrong and choosing to do evil.

Note Paul does not say they are free and clear if there is no "light of discernment" as you put it.

Jesus argued that it is willful response to light that individually condemns a person before God. Infants are safe until they can discern and respond to light. Much more is gained in Christ than lost in Adam. Where sin abounded grace did much more abound. Infants do not need baptism and that is why we find no precepts or examples to baptize infants

Scripture please. And note scriptures are relatively silent on infants. Its as if God ignores them all together theologically speaking. Anything dealing with infants can only come from two sources. 1) speculation 2) tradition.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
They weren't proofs. They were taken out of context because you made the error of corrisponding Paul's discourse with regard to Law particularly expressed in talmudic fashion through haggadah and correlate it with sacraments which differ from ordenance. There is no comparison. You just ignore that fact. And you Ignore what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:27-32 where if a mistreatment of sacramental right results in Judgement then it follows adhereance brings grace. Note This passage sounds very sacramental in that grace is given So you're basically ignoring some of paul to emphasise your point. It occures to me Marcion tried this pre-eminance of pauls writings as well and we know the outcome.

You are mixing apples with oranges. You are assuming the Catholic application in I Cor. 11:27-32 as the basis to intepret Romans 4:9-12 in keeping with Catholic sacramentalism. That is backward thinking. Rome presumes upon the Scriptures the idea of sacraments when the Scriptures repudiates sacraments. I Cor. 11:27-31 does not teach sacramental grace. What it teaches is TEMPORAL judgement upon those who abuse the Lord's Supper which is explicitly introduced in I Cor. 11:1 as part of the "ordinances" to be discussed in chapter 11 not a sacrament. You know very well the Latin term "sacramentum" is never once used in the Greek New Testament for any ordinance of God but is derived from the Greek term translated "mystery" in the New Testament "musterion."
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Jesus directly addressed the question can any who genuinely come to him in faith - beleiving can ever be lost. He addressed it in specifically and in absolute terms:

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

He is addressing those who were listening to him as they see him and yet they refused to believe in him (v.. 36). He then directly explains why they were able to both see and hear him and yet reject Him. They had not been given to him by the Father, because ALL that are given by the Father come to him (v. 27) and ALL that the father giveth unto "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING".

1. Jesus attributes the cause for coming as being given - not vice versa.
2. Jesus denies that any given will not come
3. Jesus denies that any given will be lost - Hence all given = all come = none lost.

Every interpretation of scriptures to teach apostasy of true beleivers is forced to repudiate Christ's statement "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING". Either He shall lose or he shall not lose some the father gave him as they are the ONLY ones who come to him. I will take Christ's word and charge others with misinterpreting scriptures.
I find it interesting you ignore paul here.
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize
Also here
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
Or here
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
or here if you hold to pauline authorship of hebrews (I dont')
1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it
or how about john?
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
or how about Peter
20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
What can be viewed in "both ways"??? You can't change grammar!

And be baptized every one of you (kai baptisyhtw ekastov umwn). Rather, "And let each one of you be baptized." Change of number from plural to singular and of person from second to third. This change marks a break in the thought here that the English translation does not preserve. The first thing to do is make a radical and complete change of heart and life. Then let each one be baptized after this change has taken place, and the act of baptism be performed "in the name of Jesus Christ" (en tw onomati ihsou cristou). In accordance with the command of Jesus in #Mt 28:19 (eiv to onoma). - Dr. A.T. Roberston - Word Pictures on Acts 2:38



It can be viewed at both ways you have to be seriously jaded not to see that.


No argument here.




No one has suggested anything else. I don't know why you bring it up.



No one argues this point either which again I have no Idea why you bring it up.



Note Paul does not say they are free and clear if there is no "light of discernment" as you put it.



Scripture please. And note scriptures are relatively silent on infants. Its as if God ignores them all together theologically speaking. Anything dealing with infants can only come from two sources. 1) speculation 2) tradition.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
You are illustrating exactly what I said. You go outside this context and present texts that you assume contradict his absolute comprehensive flat denial and make Him to be a liar. There is no ambiguty in his langauge.

However, every single proof text you have given to make Christ a liar can easily be interpreted to harmonize rather than contradict the plain sense of his statement. None of the texts you quote are given in a context to deal with the specific issue can any given to Christ be ultimately lost and yet you presume they do.

I would be more than happy to address each of these texts on another thread. You have not yet given a reasonable or contexually accurate objection to my interpretation of Romans 4 at any point. I would think that would bother you somewhat, especially if it is truth you are in search of?

I find it interesting you ignore paul here. Also here Or here or here if you hold to pauline authorship of hebrews (I dont') or how about john? or how about Peter
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
You are mixing apples with oranges. You are assuming the Catholic application in I Cor. 11:27-32 as the basis to intepret Romans 4:9-12 in keeping with Catholic sacramentalism. That is backward thinking. Rome presumes upon the Scriptures the idea of sacraments when the Scriptures repudiates sacraments. I Cor. 11:27-31 does not teach sacramental grace. What it teaches is TEMPORAL judgement upon those who abuse the Lord's Supper which is explicitly introduced in I Cor. 11:1 as part of the "ordinances" to be discussed in chapter 11 not a sacrament. You know very well the Latin term "sacramentum" is never once used in the Greek New Testament for any ordinance of God but is derived from the Greek term translated "mystery" in the New Testament "musterion."

You again change the subject. Romans context is Paul refudiating Judaic legal system taken over by Talmudic interpretation and extending the pracitces of the law through Haggadah to sacramentalism. those are indeed apples and oranges. At this point Rome has just as much scripture inference on the Sacramental view of the eucharist as you believe it does not especially when comparing to John 6. Temporal jugement could not occure save that an actual abuse occured and if not sacramental there is no abuse save in symbology only which who can really care? You got your latin confused Sacramentum means oath and can mean sign. The "sign" aspect refers to your Musterion. or Mystery. However like trinity its a theological term infered from scripture. So in the ancient church they viewed it as seven signs of someone's salvation and so you have ended up confusing the meanings.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
What can be viewed in "both ways"??? You can't change grammar!

And be baptized every one of you (kai baptisyhtw ekastov umwn). Rather, "And let each one of you be baptized." Change of number from plural to singular and of person from second to third. This change marks a break in the thought here that the English translation does not preserve. The first thing to do is make a radical and complete change of heart and life. Then let each one be baptized after this change has taken place, and the act of baptism be performed "in the name of Jesus Christ" (en tw onomati ihsou cristou). In accordance with the command of Jesus in #Mt 28:19 (eiv to onoma). - Dr. A.T. Roberston - Word Pictures on Acts 2:38
Sorry I only saw the last passage quote with out reading the whole post. The fact is the emphasis is on the people he was speaking to does not negate the fact that the promise was to them and their children. In fact, He was speaking in the context of the crowed. But children aren't denied as you have assumed.
 
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Dr. Walter

New Member
You pull a quote from a different passage. I thought we were talking about acts!!!! that's misleading Why did you go to Matthew?

I think you better re-read the quote. A.T. Robertson is not dealing with Matthew but with Acts 2:38. At the end of the quote he references Matthew 28:19-20 as supportive only.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
You again change the subject. Romans context is Paul refudiating Judaic legal system taken over by Talmudic interpretation and extending the pracitces of the law through Haggadah to sacramentalism. those are indeed apples and oranges. At this point Rome has just as much scripture inference on the Sacramental view of the eucharist as you believe it does not especially when comparing to John 6. Temporal jugement could not occure save that an actual abuse occured and if not sacramental there is no abuse save in symbology only which who can really care? You got your latin confused Sacramentum means oath and can mean sign. The "sign" aspect refers to your Musterion. or Mystery. However like trinity its a theological term infered from scripture. So in the ancient church they viewed it as seven signs of someone's salvation and so you have ended up confusing the meanings.

Who has told you that Romans 4:9-12 is dealing with the Judaic legal system which was put in place by MOSES??? This is the very reason Paul took a PRE-Moses illustration with Abraham 430 years before Moses. You cannot argue that PRE-Mosic examples are being used to interpret Mosaic legislation.

Musterion is not used to translate "sign" in Romans 4:12 and neither is "musterion" used in I Cor. 11:1 for the head covering and Lord's Supper but the term "ordinance" is. Hence, you argument is absurd.

My friend, the bible says by their fruits you can know them. You have no theological fruits of an evangelical much less a Baptist. You are not interested in the truth at all. You are Quasi Roman Catholic in a Baptist cloak.

You deny every fundemental Baptist doctrine with vigor. You have denied that baptism and the Lord's supper are symbols but demand they are sacramental. You defend apostasy and thus deny grace in salvation but defend grace as defined by Rome. I simply do not believe you are being honest.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
What I find very significant in your profession is that "applicability" rather than "TRUTH" is the decisive factor you give. Pragmaticism "does the doctrine work" rather than TRUTH. Nowhere in your testimony do I find any clear or expressed gospel profession.

No saved person would dare express "applicability" or "does the doctrine work" as the decisive issue for their conversion.

The very fact that you are engaged in denying the very essential heart of the Gospel of Jesus Christ give ample evidence of a possible false profession.

Humor me by simply answer this definitive statement:

Do you believe that justification before God is accomplished or assisted by anything you do or someone else does other than your own personal and individual receving by faith the substitutionary and completed work of Jesus Christ as the full and final satisfaction to all the demands of God's Law to obtain eternal life?


Thats a good question and I would like to answer it. For me personally it a point of Applicability. What works. What is sufficient and what is not. In otherwords when applied does the doctrine work? I can only speak from my experience.

As a baptised Catholic growing up in the tradition of the Church I can tell you I had no real desire for Christ. My father did have me read the bible but I was not ever better off for it. I was told the stories of the saints and was not really inspired. I desired sin and desired it openly. My family though Catholic through and through and very knowledgable about Catholic Doctrine and scriptures fell apart very easily. My father is twice married (once to a budhist from vietnam) and my mother never re-married but had a long affair with an indian Zoharastrian. My mother, I must say was never catholic and dabbled in the occult. My father much too consumed with his work neglected all spiritual growth in the family. I knew "stuff" but did it matter? Not really. And there is something disarming about a particular Catholic view to a young person. You can not be sure of success of heaven until you have perservered unto the end. And like I explained to Lori the difference between perserverance from a catholic perspective and a reformed one is that for a Catholic they grip tight to their salvation hoping and praying to never let go of it and for the reformed person they are carried way by their salvation and cannot but perservere. So logically for a young person if there is no assurance that at a moment of sin and weakness or anger and rebellion you let go all that had been gained over the years will be lost and certainly there are scripture verses that hold to this view. I personally couldn't countenance that type of issue. Also had my personal life and struggles with sin ever improve haveing been catholic and participating in the sacraments? On a personal level, no it hadn't. I still prefered sin to righteousness.

Having my first protestant exprience at RVA (a great missionary school in East Africa btw for which I praise God continually) opened my eyes. First of all I must say the missionaries that I encountered there are the cream of the crop of the faith. Wonderful people who are very less judgemental than many on this site. In many way's Catholicism is very complicated and only academics know everything it teaches. These missionaries made the Gospel very simple and attainable to me. More than that I saw faith in action. Lives of success in their native countries to share the gospel, food, medical attention to other not as fortunate. People with a real gospel heart. Scriptures and faith became less an academic one and very real for me. Based on their examples and the assurance presented to me (one serious problem with the Catholic church but not for the reasons given like they are works based which is why I often try to clarify that this is not so. Any Catholic will tell you.) And the "guarantee" (so to speak) that once surrendering your life to Christ a new nature is implanted. Having said the sinners prayer (alter call). I felt nothing. No emotion. However, I had for the first time a greater desire for Christ than my own sin! Two weeks later that hit home and I was filled with Joy along with the assurance that God would never leave me nor forsake me despite my own issues. Now that was a relief! I must say I didn't leave the Catholic Church right away. It was after a long time of prayers and study with priest and brothers (monks) that I saw the divergance of a changed heart (my own) and academic knowledge of faith. I left the church at that point and unfortuantely went on a search for the a church that taught the full truth. It led me to Calvary type churches, Non-denominational churches, Pentecostal Churches, vinyard churches, Independent (certain ones are very legalistic) baptist churches, and southern baptist churches. I prefer the baptist churches for their study material, sensibilities, emphasis on scripture and the study of it. Most pastors I get along with have gone to Gordon Conwell. And among the Baptist I like the communities that work to help each other grow and have good outreach programs. So in the end the application of faith in a changed life and desiring after God worked "beter" than what I had in the Catholic faith. And currently I attend a SBC and enjoy many of the members. I don't hold to all of reformed theology though I certainly hold certain views particular to reformed theology I can't say I buy them hook line and sinker. Though there is a move in my church for many members to do exactly that.
Now once I left the Catholic church I lost my family. Seriously. My mother although having dabbled in cultish practices didn't speak to me for almost 20 years. My father cut me off from any financial help and verbal support because I was a "screwed up Protestant". He could not speak to me save to argue theology with me. It didn't matter (it seemed to me) whether I was stuggling or not. If I was it was because I was protestant. I had to make my own way while watching my siblings have their college paid for; have their first cars paid for; when they had no place to go they could always return home. Not so with me. When I first came back to the states and struggled after graduating from college I had no place to turn. The Lord protected me and kept me but you have no idea. At times I envied people who could just go home. I couldn't. It was a struggle. But in the end. I have a brother who is in and out of Jail. I have another brother who can't even afford to keep his family without my father's support. My sister has cheated on her husband and their relationship is struggling. My wife and I keep sharing the gospel with them as we can and lift up our family as an example to them of what God can do. My mother has been the most affected by this and in the last 5 years has been speaking with me again. So in the end its a question of what works and applicability.
Does this make everything the Catholics say untrue. No. But it sure redirects emphasis. I tend to just be honest about what it is they say they believe rather than place on them propaganda. They have many problems but as I've said non of them are ever breached here. Are they the ancient faith. In some respects yes in others no. But my contention has always been we can never go back to the infant church. We have evolved from it. Society and morae's have changed. Can we take on aspects? Yes. However, one thing is certain. The scriptures are the very word of God no matter if your Catholic or Baptist.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Who has told you that Romans 4:9-12 is dealing with the Judaic legal system which was put in place by MOSES??? This is the very reason Paul took a PRE-Moses illustration with Abraham 430 years before Moses. You cannot argue that PRE-Mosic examples are being used to interpret Mosaic legislation.

Musterion is not used to translate "sign" in Romans 4:12 and neither is "musterion" used in I Cor. 11:1 for the head covering and Lord's Supper but the term "ordinance" is. Hence, you argument is absurd.

My friend, the bible says by their fruits you can know them. You have no theological fruits of an evangelical much less a Baptist. You are not interested in the truth at all. You are Quasi Roman Catholic in a Baptist cloak.

You deny every fundemental Baptist doctrine with vigor. You have denied that baptism and the Lord's supper are symbols but demand they are sacramental. You defend apostasy and thus deny grace in salvation but defend grace as defined by Rome. I simply do not believe you are being honest.

You're out of your mind. I was just arguing with you from a Catholic perspective. I've shown you nothing of what I actually believe apart from my earlier statements regarding my conversion. But I think you have difficulty in 1) understanding what it is that catholics believe apart from your bias
2) fail to understand that your choice of scripture text are sometimes taken out of context. Especially considering arguing with a Catholic mentality. You're assumption is (probably based on your experience with Catholic laity) that Catholics don't adhere at all to scriptures nor have scriptureal referrences by which they take their beliefs from. Now I'm not even a Catholic Theologian and I can reitterate all the things you have mentioned save most of it is misapplied. You haven't even got into the greater problems with the church such as the syllabus of errors etc... Much less how to approach the Filioque, or even more simple matters. How do you expect handel the even more pressing matters of how the bible was compiled? How do the church councils figure into things and how do you seperate the bible from the bodies that compiled that library? We haven't even got to judaism yet. And you really expect to deal with catholics by reaffirming something they don't believe such as a "works based salvation?" hah! Good luck. And I haven't even been to mass in a long time. And those verses were on the top of my head. I didn't even have to search for them. I think a little study about Catholicism would help you understand how better to argue. By the way I have a copy of the institutes. I also have a copy of Foxes book of Martyrs. I read Sproul a lot. I just put down "Not a chance". So imagine if I frustrate you. How about someone like my father who is Catholic. Man can you imagine? But you haven't really added anything new to the conversation against Catholic theology but regurgitated old stuff. There are those on this board who have a pretty good approach like Aaron and a few others though I thing they would be supprised to hear it.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
What I find very significant in your profession is that "applicability" rather than "TRUTH" is the decisive factor you give. Pragmaticism "does the doctrine work" rather than TRUTH. Nowhere in your testimony do I find any clear or expressed gospel profession.

No saved person would dare express "applicability" or "does the doctrine work" as the decisive issue for their conversion.

The very fact that you are engaged in denying the very essential heart of the Gospel of Jesus Christ give ample evidence of a possible false profession.

Humor me by simply answer this definitive statement:

Do you believe that justification before God is accomplished or assisted by anything you do or someone else does other than your own personal and individual receving by faith the substitutionary and completed work of Jesus Christ as the full and final satisfaction to all the demands of God's Law to obtain eternal life?

Now you're asking me what I believe? There is nothing I could have done to save myself. I couldn't even have had a desire to want God save there was the working of the Holy Spirit to make me want it. I personally was totally depraved and nothing less than the ressurecting power of Jesus Christ could make me want him. Christ satisfied the law and yet has inprinted the law in my heart. I may fail many times but I don't have the strength, the will, or the ability to jump out of his soverignty overy my life. Eternal life was gained for me. I can not gain it myself. But this does not negate my responsibility to live a child of the king. Selah. And your judgment about applicabilty is ill suited to a believer. Yes I was saved and I know it to my bones. And yes it works. Jesus said if you do not believe my words believe the miracles. Why because he's saying it works. You are way too judgemental.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
My "bias" is derived from contextual study of the Scriptures, not Sproul, not Calvin's institutes or some other man.

Your only response to by stated contextually based arguments is ridicule but NO ANSWERS.

I am not trying to get into the head of a Roman Catholic Theologion, I am trying to get into the head of the Apostle Paul and that is why my arguments are contextually based in every detail. If you get into the head of the Biblical writer it does not matter who you are dealing with (Rome, JW's, Mormons, SDA, etc.) as the contextual interpreted scripture is more than sufficient ALONE to demolish their imaginations.

You have not even attempted to respond to the expositions in Romans 4 BY A CONTEXTUAL BASED method. You have made unfounded, unreasonable assertions with not a single iota of scripture to support them in regard to Romans 4.

BTW I have most of Sprouls books and have read them. I much of his tape library and listened to them many times. I have Calvin's institutes, Foxes book of Martyrs and around 2500 more books in my library that cover the range denominational doctrine and history. So what!
You're out of your mind. I was just arguing with you from a Catholic perspective. I've shown you nothing of what I actually believe apart from my earlier statements regarding my conversion. But I think you have difficulty in 1) understanding what it is that catholics believe apart from your bias
2) fail to understand that your choice of scripture text are sometimes taken out of context. Especially considering arguing with a Catholic mentality. You're assumption is (probably based on your experience with Catholic laity) that Catholics don't adhere at all to scriptures nor have scriptureal referrences by which they take their beliefs from. Now I'm not even a Catholic Theologian and I can reitterate all the things you have mentioned save most of it is misapplied. You haven't even got into the greater problems with the church such as the syllabus of errors etc... Much less how to approach the Filioque, or even more simple matters. How do you expect handel the even more pressing matters of how the bible was compiled? How do the church councils figure into things and how do you seperate the bible from the bodies that compiled that library? We haven't even got to judaism yet. And you really expect to deal with catholics by reaffirming something they don't believe such as a "works based salvation?" hah! Good luck. And I haven't even been to mass in a long time. And those verses were on the top of my head. I didn't even have to search for them. I think a little study about Catholicism would help you understand how better to argue. By the way I have a copy of the institutes. I also have a copy of Foxes book of Martyrs. I read Sproul a lot. I just put down "Not a chance". So imagine if I frustrate you. How about someone like my father who is Catholic. Man can you imagine? But you haven't really added anything new to the conversation against Catholic theology but regurgitated old stuff. There are those on this board who have a pretty good approach like Aaron and a few others though I thing they would be supprised to hear it.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
Now you're asking me what I believe? There is nothing I could have done to save myself. I couldn't even have had a desire to want God save there was the working of the Holy Spirit to make me want it. I personally was totally depraved and nothing less than the ressurecting power of Jesus Christ could make me want him. Christ satisfied the law and yet has inprinted the law in my heart. I may fail many times but I don't have the strength, the will, or the ability to jump out of his soverignty overy my life. Eternal life was gained for me. I can not gain it myself. But this does not negate my responsibility to live a child of the king. Selah. And your judgment about applicabilty is ill suited to a believer. Yes I was saved and I know it to my bones. And yes it works. Jesus said if you do not believe my words believe the miracles. Why because he's saying it works. You are way too judgemental.

Ok! I will buy that. Of course whether I buy it or not it makes no difference to you and shouldn't.

I interpret the scriptures by the scriptures and I interpret Romans 4 in its context and in the context that Paul draws his illustrations from in the Old Testament. Paul is using clear biblical illustrations to respond to legalism in any form, whether it is Jewish or gnostic or any other version and we can use the very same line of logic and scriptures in response to Romanism.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
Why will not the clear illustration of Abraham delineated by Paul in the logical order he presents in Romans 4 be sufficient to define what is included versus what is excluded in the doctrine of justification by faith before God???? I find nothing difficult in his explanation or logic or terms! I find it simplistically clear and not just clear but devestating to any kind of sacramentalism that makes regeneration inclusive of justification. I find it devestating to any defintion of grace that is infused through sacraments. I find it devestating to any kind of mentality that requries any kind of HUMAN ASSISTANCE involved in the act of justification by self or others but God alone.

What frustrates me is that you have not even attempted to refute the evidence except by ridicule and assertions which come with no foundations, no evidence, nothing. Why?


Now you're asking me what I believe? There is nothing I could have done to save myself. I couldn't even have had a desire to want God save there was the working of the Holy Spirit to make me want it. I personally was totally depraved and nothing less than the ressurecting power of Jesus Christ could make me want him. Christ satisfied the law and yet has inprinted the law in my heart. I may fail many times but I don't have the strength, the will, or the ability to jump out of his soverignty overy my life. Eternal life was gained for me. I can not gain it myself. But this does not negate my responsibility to live a child of the king. Selah. And your judgment about applicabilty is ill suited to a believer. Yes I was saved and I know it to my bones. And yes it works. Jesus said if you do not believe my words believe the miracles. Why because he's saying it works. You are way too judgemental.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Ok! I will buy that. Of course whether I buy it or not it makes no difference to you and shouldn't.

I interpret the scriptures by the scriptures and I interpret Romans 4 in its context and in the context that Paul draws his illustrations from in the Old Testament. Paul is using clear biblical illustrations to respond to legalism in any form, whether it is Jewish or gnostic or any other version and we can use the very same line of logic and scriptures in response to Romanism.

To be fair specifically judaism. Since it was common for the Jews to require imposition of the Law on the new gentile believers. Note remember Judaism doesn't just purport the Mosaic law. But it holds all gentiles to Nohide laws and Abrahamic laws to the Jews.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Why will not the clear illustration of Abraham delineated by Paul in the logical order he presents in Romans 4 be sufficient to define what is included versus what is excluded in the doctrine of justification by faith before God???? I find nothing difficult in his explanation or logic or terms! I find it simplistically clear and not just clear but devestating to any kind of sacramentalism that makes regeneration inclusive of justification. I find it devestating to any defintion of grace that is infused through sacraments. I find it devestating to any kind of mentality that requries any kind of HUMAN ASSISTANCE involved in the act of justification by self or others but God alone.

What frustrates me is that you have not even attempted to refute the evidence except by ridicule and assertions which come with no foundations, no evidence, nothing. Why?
Because its self evident but here we go. I supply evidence.

1) Note the context of Romans 4. its is a further discourse starting in Romans 3
1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?
Topic of discussion. to which Paul answers
2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

2) So we are now in a discussion of comparison of doctrine with regard to Judaism and that is where he starts to build on christianity. Here he shows the condemnation applies to both Jew and Gentile not just to the Jew because they have law and the Jews aren't any worse for having it.
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 1

3) this next passage in context of this discourse isn't speaking about general laws but specifically judaic laws
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
4) From a Catholic perspective the Law does not equate sacrament. two entirely different creatures in definition and opperation. You try to make this passage fit to condemn the sacrament when its appealing to judaic law. In fact the Catholic will view this passage to emulate sacrament and even Misterion is used in this passage.
It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.
The Catholic would say this is a foreshadowing of the baptism sacrament. Faith first and the sacrament is the Oath/sign of the righteousness the christian has by faith.
5) so this passage in romans 4
It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.
would not apply to the catholic but the judiazer or jew. See how its self evident once you understand the Catholic view of the sacraments.

You are correlating it with law they don't.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
BTW I have most of Sprouls books and have read them. I much of his tape library and listened to them many times. I have Calvin's institutes, Foxes book of Martyrs and around 2500 more books in my library that cover the range denominational doctrine and history. So what!

I think I should have Dr. by my name. I've done the reading. (Btw that was my attempt at humor. )
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
I understand the make up of the churches outside of Palestine were composed of both jews and gentiles and that legalism stemmed primarily from the jews not the gentiles so much (except for some Greek philophies).

However, what many on this forum seemingly do not understand is the significance of circumcision in this matter among the early Christians. As you know, with the exception of Abraham, circumcision occurred 8 days after birth and therefore it was the very first ceremonial ordinance experienced and was the public declaration at the beginning of committment to a LIFE OF LAW KEEPING. This is why the point was over circumcision in Acts 15, not so much to make gentiles Jews but to assert a committment to LAW KEEPING for the rest of their lives in order to be "saved" (justified).

This is precisely why Paul took circumcision back to Abraham instead of under Moses. If he would have taken any Post-Mosaic example he would have reaffirmed the doctrine of law keeping. However, in pre-Mosaic Abraham, who is also the father of circumcision there is a space of 14 years between the actual time he was justified by faith and the time he was circumcised. Also by declaring Abraham as the "father" (pattern) of ALL beleivers he was establishing the role of circumcision or any other ceremonial rite in the lives of true believers as to its value ("sign" or "seal") and yet denying it's role in obtaining justification by faith.

It is clear that the intent of circumcision by the Judiazers was to be the visible declaration that law keeping in addition to faith in Christ was necessary to be ultimately justified before God:

Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

In Paul's use of Abraham in Romans 4:9-12 he totally repudiates the idea that circumcision can even be involved in justification by faith and therefore repudiates the whole theological system of justication by law keeping devised by the misinterpretation of circumcision by the jews.

The true design for circumicision is seen in Abraham as a "sign" or "seal" of an already justified state. Under Moses it is to be interpreted within the context of ceremonialism and symbolism. The infant being circumcised at eight days old is a symbol of the new birth under the New covenant rather than the literal means for new birth under the New covenant.

Paul puts literal circumcision in its proper place with literal justification by faith in the use of Abraham. In the Post-Mosaic use of circumcision it falls under the ceremonial laws of "shadow" and "symbol" and there literal circumcision of literal babies is a type of the new birth under the new covenant.

In properly placing circumcision in the context of Abraham, justification BEFORE circumcision Paul with one blow shatters the whole Legal system and gospel of Christ perpetuated by the Judiazers which made circumcision the first step toward justification through the works of the law which is the very same idea incorporated into Roman Catholicism as they view baptism as a means to convey new birth and justification.


To be fair specifically judaism. Since it was common for the Jews to require imposition of the Law on the new gentile believers. Note remember Judaism doesn't just purport the Mosaic law. But it holds all gentiles to Nohide laws and Abrahamic laws to the Jews.
 
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