Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

[DHK]

Of course it is not of works. It is by faith accompanied by works.

That is not what Eph.2:8,9 or Rom.5:1 say is it?
You have a problem with God and His Word.

 

[lori4dogs]

Take another look at this passage. It speaks of salvation in the past tense-"you have been saved." In Greek, isn't this the perfect tense and doesn't that indicate a past and completed action? Other passages by St. Paul make it clear that there are present and future aspects of salvation-See BillySunday's posts. What St. Paul is talking about here is initial salvation. When we first came to know Jesus and were justified. This is not the kind of salvation we are receiving now. Take a look at 1 Peter 1:8-9 and also Phil. 2:12.

The Church has never taught that we receive initial salvation by good works or that you have to do good works in order to know Jesus as Lord and Savior and be justified. What does the Council of Trent say? "We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For 'if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,' as the apostle says, 'grace is no more grace' [Rom. 11:6]" (Decree on Justification 8).

Even if St. Paul was using works to mean 'Good Works' in Ephesians it wouldn't be in conflict with the Holy Catholic Church and it's theology. However, I think that usually when St. Paul talked about works, he was talking about the Mosaic works of the Law.
He was stressing that we are saved through faith in Jesus and not by obeying the law.
St. Paul then turns our attention away from the works of the law to what we really should be doing "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" Ephesian 2:10.

Context, DHK, Context!

 

[DHK]

Take another look at this passage. It speaks of salvation in the past tense-"you have been saved." In Greek, isn't this the perfect tense and doesn't that indicate a past and completed action?

Yes it does.
You have been saved. And it has been by grace. And it has been through faith. A completed action. But it has not been by works.

Other passages by St. Paul make it clear that there are present and future aspects of salvation.

Present aspect of salvation is normally referred to as "sanctification."
Future aspect of salvation is normally referred to as "glorification."
Thus salvation, per se, only takes place once in a persons life. There is no need to be redundant and confusing in one's terminology when we have specific words to define varying aspects of the Christian life. One simply doesn't put the entire Christian life under one large umbrella of "salvation." It doesn't work that way.

What St. Paul is talking about here is initial salvation. When we first came to know Jesus and were justified.

There is only one kind of salvation; one kind of justification, and happens when one comes to Christ, trusts him as Savior, and for the forgiveness of his sins. At that time he receives the gift of eternal life. He is saved. It is a one time act.

The Church has never taught that we receive initial salvation by good works or that you have to do good works in order to know Jesus as Lord and Savior and be justified.

The RCC has always taught that. It has always taught that without good works one cannot be saved.

What does the Council of Trent say? "We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For 'if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,' as the apostle says, 'grace is no more grace' [Rom. 11:6]" (Decree on Justification 8).

That is not all that was said at the Council of Trent, and you know it.
Care to read out the anathemas.

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

That is not what my Bible says:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law," (Gal. 5:1-3).

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION

: "If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy council in the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not rather illustrate the truth of our faith and no less the glory of God and of Christ Jesus, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 33).

This simply says that if anyone disagrees with our statement and belief of justification they are damned. There is the mark of the cult of the RCC. You must be a member of the RCC or you are damned. You must believe as they do or you are damned. These are strong words. They have never been revoked.

SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM

: "If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 3).

That is not what my Bible teaches.
Baptism will get you wet but it cannot save.
The only one that saves is Christ, not water.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--He never said anything about baptism being the way...

TWENTY-FIFTH SESSION, DECREE ON PURGATORY

: "Since the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, following the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils, be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ, and be everywhere taught and preached."

http://www.peterpaulmin.org/CoucilofTrent.html

Purgatory--as you can see: a man-made doctrine with no Biblical basis.

Even if St. Paul was using works to mean 'Good Works' in Ephesians it wouldn't be in conflict with the Holy Catholic Church and it's theology. However, I think that usually when St. Paul talked about works, he was talking about the Mosaic works of the Law.
He was stressing that we are saved through faith in Jesus and not by obeying the law.
St. Paul then turns our attention away from the works of the law to what we really should be doing "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" Ephesian 2:10.

Yes, the context here is: after one is saved (vs.8,9) God has ordained them (the believers) to have lives unto good works. Good works always follow salvation, never before. If you are not saved (that is an unsaved person) can not recognize a good work if it is set in front of them. They do not love God or seek for God's love. They are depraved. They don't know how to do good works. Thus good works cannot save them. "There is none that doeth good, no not one."
There is none righteous, not one.
Read Rom.3:10-18.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I did not read every word of the document, but did read substantial portions of it. I see no real change here. The papacy is not changing any position of theirs on the doctrine of justification. They are asserting regeneration in baptism and justification therein.

If anything is happening it's that this Lutheran World Federation is simply compromising with the papacy in this matter.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The past tense completed act of salvation in Ephesians 2:1,5,8,10b has reference to the work of regeneration and justification. Justification before God is not a continuing action nor is it any action by the beleiver at all. We are justified by faith "IN" the promised provision of God, which is, the complete satisfaction and fulfillment of the laws demands by the substitutionary faithfulness of Jesus Christ.

We are justified by faith "IN" God's provision and because of that we are to be "faithful" TO God (Eph. 2:10b). However, the former is our justification before God and the latter is our progressive sanctification.

Here is where Rome and all other justification by works advocates are confused and pervert the word of God. Faith "IN" an object is not equal to faithfulness TO an object. It is the personal individual faithfulness of Christ to the law of God coupled with his personal individual suffering as God's provision to be our substitute in life and in death that is the proper object of faith that justifies one before God. We are justified by His faithfulness to the law not ours. Inclusion of our faithfulness for justification before God is the gospel of those who are "accursed" in Gal. 1:6-9. Inclusion of progressive sanctification in the doctrine of justification before God is the content of "another gospel."

We are saved to serve but we do not serve to be saved. There is a strict cause and effect relationship between justification by faith "IN" Christ and faithfulness "TO" Christ and Rome removes this distinction and so do all who preach "another gospel."

 

[lori4dogs]

Despite continual declarations by you Prostestants to the contrary, the Catholic Church does not teach 'works/righteousness.' What does the Council of Trent say? "We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For 'if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,' as the apostle says, 'grace is no more grace' [Rom. 11:6]" (Decree on Justification 8).

 

[BillySunday1935]

I hoped I wouldn't have to answer this Billy. I had hoped that you would have been intelligent enough to realize that the English language is broad enough and extensive enough that it uses "synonyms," words that are different but have the same or similar meaning.

When you have no retort, simply insult the person who disagrees with you.

It makes for more interesting reading. The Holy Spirit is not just confined to one word, "only." He is able to use other words outside of your vocabulary of "only."

So, the Holy Spirit decided to implement your symantics garbage theory in order to make for "...more interesting reading"? Hmmm....

No matter how you slice it DHK - whether you use synonyms, antonyms, or dangling participles for that matter, the words “alone/only/sole/etc.” and the word “faith” are not found together saying that which you are trying to make them say.

If that is the "only" word that you can think of that has that meaning, maybe you better expand on your education. But the Holy Spirit is not so confined. "Alone" and "only" are not the only words in the dictionary.

Nor is the word “alone” used in conjunction with “faith” in that context anywhere in scripture. Neither is the word “only” or any other synonym for that matter. That’s fact, DHK!

Reader please note the absence of the word "ALONE" in the scripture verse quoted by DHK. Further, please note that the word "ALONE" only appears in DHK's text. Finally, please note that the verse states "For by grace are ye saved through faith..." See? grace AND faith!

So let's examine it:
First lay a groundwork.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--Note that grace and works cannot exist together. It is either by grace or by works, but it cannot be by both. So before we go any further into this conversation we eliminate works right away.

First let’s look at the verse that you quoted to which I was responding (You always leave out the relevant quotes there, DHK)

You said…
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
If you cannot see saved by faith alone in that verse you need glasses.

I will state it again (since you danced around this)

Reader please note the absence of the word "ALONE" in the scripture verse quoted by DHK. Further, please note that the word "ALONE" only appears in DHK's text. Finally, please note that the verse states "For by grace are ye saved through faith..." See? grace AND faith!

Secondly, It is by grace alone, or only by grace that one is saved.
Look up in the preceding verses:
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

--For by grace are you saved. Not by any thing else, but by grace. By grace alone are you saved. Only the grace of God can save you; nothing else can. It is Eph.2:8,9 That I originally quoted to you.

Why is it by grace alone? Because the grace refers to the sacrificial work on the cross that Christ offered in our place. That is the grace referred to. Nothing can replace that. God reaches down to humanity through the grace of Christ offered on the cross, and through that grace alone, offers him salvation. That grace alone can save. There is no other way. Salvation is by grace alone.

Stand up - take your hands off of the keyboard - now read this ever so slowly...

If we are saved by GRACE ALONE, then we cannot necessarily be saved by FAITH ALONE. That is the most obvious point that you conveniently ignore with perfect regularity.

You display your typical MO here DHK - quote one verse to prove (or disprove) a seminal doctrine without regards to the rest of scripture.

hmmm, Who is the one not giving Scripture??

In lieu of blasting each other with cherry picked verses, why not look at the question from a logical standpoint. Here are a few logical questions for you DHK...

That was the stated premise, DHK – to have a logical discussion with you. You know - as in theoLOGICAL?

Back to your flawed questions later.
Next you must realize that salvation in not just by grace alone;
It is by faith alone.

That is the most absurd statement that I’ve heard here. If it’s by faith ALONE then it cannot be by grace ALONE.

It is by faith alone because it says it is.
For by grace are ye saved "by faith" and that not of yourselves.

Notice the absence of the word ALONE… guess where that came from DHK.

Now – show me from scripture where scripture says that we are saved by FAITH alone. It only happens in one place:

James 2:24 (King James Version)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It does not say by faith plus anything else.

Neither does it say "faith" by itself.

It is faith plus zero, or faith alone. It is faith, and that not of yourselves or nothing you can do. It says it is alone, by the following descriptive phrases which you conveniently ignore.

No sir - that is your belief and that verse (and no others for that matter) does not say that.

--That not of yourself. It is by faith alone, because it is not of anything you can do.

It IS by grace alone - yet, we must cooperate with that grace. However, this is NOT what you are claiming.

--Not of works. It is by faith alone, because it is not of works.

That's a fallacious analogy. Faith alone just isn't there DHK.

Besides, just look at the context here - the works spoken of are those under the Mosaic Law. This says nothing about those works which we are expected to do as Christians.
Remember this, DHK?

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in [DO] them" (Eph. 2:10).

Note that we "should" walk in them - not that we "shall" walk in them.

--a gift of God. It is by faith alone, because it is a gift of God. It can't be worked for.

If it is a gift from God (grace) then it (salvation) cannot be by faith alone.

It is by faith alone because these two verses have so defined it to be. But as I said previously, if "only" or "alone" are the only two words in your vocabulary then you have a problem, and it seems that you have a serious problem if you cannot see that salvation is "by faith alone."

Again, you have an insurmountable problem there, DHK. You, by keeping to a flawed and unbiblical belief, must parse, obfuscate, and employ the most laughable tortured logic I've seen in order to attempt to defend the indefensible. It's very entertaining actually – I mean, to watch how a Sola Scriptura advocate totally ignores scripture in order to support yet another man-made doctrine.

If we are saved by faith alone, then we don’t need to love anyone do we, even God in order to be saved?

This is really an absurd statement. You know it and all who are reading it know it.

So you say DHK. But you are dodging the question. If all we need is faith to be saved, then logically nothing else is required. To ignore the facts is to let prejudice overcome reason.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
--Salvation is all about responding to the love of Christ. It is the Holy Spirit working in a person's heart. We respond to the Holy Spirit's work. Christ first loved us. We accept his love. We accept it in faith, in faith alone.

You, by the above statements, have once again proven the position that we are not saved by faith alone. If the process of salvation (and I’m glad that you now seem to agree that it is a process) includes the Holy Spirit working on someone’s heart, then salvation necessarily cannot be by faith ALONE.

After one is saved then that same Holy Spirit gives us the capacity to love others and even a greater love for the one that first loved us.

That statement does nothing to buttress the position of faith alone.

continued...

 

[BillySunday1935]

continued…

However, if we do indeed need to love in order to be saved then we are not saved by faith alone are we?

You did not have the capacity to love God before you were saved.
You hated him. You ran from him. You tried to find God like a criminal searched for a police station. You never did find God. You didn't want to. It was God that found you. You so-called "love" for God before you were saved had nothing to do with your salvation because you were not capable of loving Him.

And who are you to know what is in my heart or anyone’s for that matter – this is simply more utter and unadulterated pap!

We are saved by faith AND love (faith working through love) (Galatians 5:6).

Paul is speaking of the Christian walk there, not salvation.

Really, and what chapter and verse does he state that he was speaking of “…the Christian walk … not salvation”?

If however, one is saying that we do not need love in order to get to heaven, then one must believe that we can get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man.

Entirely correct. You don't have love before you are saved.
Read and understand:

Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Really DHK – I am surprised! Surely you know that Paul is quoting the Old Testament here.

Psalm 53:1-5 (King James Version)
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them [the children of men] is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.
5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

Notice there are two groups being discussed here.

1) the children of men (workers of iniquity)
-- and --
2) my [God’s] people

One of these groups has become filthy; there are none that do good, no, not one – those who eat up my people as they eat bread and have not called upon God.

The other group (God's people) are not the ones being discussed here. It’s pretty clear actually. Again, this scripture just doesn't say what you are trying to make it say.

2. If it is faith alone without love (some translations use the word charity), then why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith?
"But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is faith"? No. It’s love. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing that we can obtain, and it is by faith alone that we obtain it, then faith should be greater than love right? Unfortunately, the bible says differently.

It is a moot point seeing it is not speaking of salvation.
It is a moot point seeing that it is directed to Christians only.

How convenient – again, you didn’t answer my question.

If you must know the answer, love is greater because love will last longer. Faith and Hope will cease to exist at the coming of Christ. But love will go on and endure forever.

However, that time has not yet come to pass, so please answer the question.

If salvation is the greatest thing that we can obtain, and it is by faith alone that we obtain it, then faith should be greater than love right? Unfortunately, the bible says differently.

3. If you have faith but not works can your faith save you? If one were to answer yes to this question, then one contradicts scripture. (James 2:14-17)

This has been explained ad infinitum, and if done so again, I doubt if you would accept it. The basic teaching of James is simply that works is an outgrowth or the fruit of one's faith. A believer will show works in his life. If not taken in the context of the entire book you will get the wrong meaning--every time. There are no contradictions in the Bible.

That is correct – there are no contradictions in scripture which is why you must dance around the scripture that doesn’t agree with you using
unsupportable scriptural gymnastics to hold up you belief system.

So DHK - why is your interpretation any less fallible than mine or anyone's for that matter, hmm...?

continued…

 

[BillySunday1935]

continued…

4. If salvation by faith alone is one of the most seminal of Christian doctrines, then why do the words faith and alone appear together only once in scripture? And that is to say that we are NOT justified or saved by faith alone (James 2:24).

The Holy Spirit is not confined to Billy's vocabulary (thankfully!)
The words "alone" or "only" to not even have to be used to teach it.

For example:
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--One doesn't have to insert the word "alone" to know that that is what it teaches. If you had to insert something after "faith", then theoretically one could insert anything they wanted to, like "justified by faith, (and eating blue cheese)" It teaches "justified by faith" and nothing more, which means justified by faith alone.

Again – that is your necessarily skewed interpretation. James clearly states the exact opposite of what you are claiming. It says what it says, DHK.

5. Is whether or not we have faith, God’s sole criteria for judging us worthy of salvation? If the answer is no, then it is not salvation by faith alone, is it? If however one were to answer yes to this question, then why does every passage in the New Testament dealing with judgment say that we will be judged by our works? For example Matthew 24, John 15, Romans 2, Revelation 20, and many, MANY more.

We are speaking of salvation, not judgment. Those are two different subjects.

Incorrect! You can’t deny with a straight face what scripture says and I’ve shown you this before.


Jeremiah 17:10 (King James Version)
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Revelation 2:23 (King James Version)
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works

Revelation 20:12 (King James Version)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And finally...

Romans 2:5-7
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:

7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,

-- or –

8 but wrath and fury [eternal damnation] to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

That’s what judgment is all about DHK and no one can avoid it. Saved or unsaved, we will all be called to account and that is something that both you and I will have to deal with.

6. Jesus tells us in John 6:27, to labor for the food that leads to eternal life. That doesn’t sound like faith alone does it? Laboring in this context is clearly suggestive of faith AND works.

Jesus made a play on words. Are you like the Jews and could not understand his words also?

That’s something of a flaccid response there, DHK.

Labor and faith are put together. What must we do? Jesus said "Believe."
The only thing one can do is to believe. There are no works for salvation.
Believe or have faith (not a work), is the only thing one can do to be saved.

That is absolutely incorrect and is really just a matter of common sense. Belief is a mental choice – an assent of the will – an act – a work. You just can’t get around those works can you DHK.

Therefore, we are forgiven by faith, and at least one work; the act of forgiving others of their sins against us. If, however, one responds with no to the above question, then one is going against what Jesus commanded in Matthew 6:14.

In Mat.6:14 Jesus was speaking to his disciples, saved individuals, and was not speaking of salvation.

Oh brother...

Well, does that mean that the disciples must do something different than the rest of us in order to be saved? It does according to your logic. Again – look at the Sermon on the Mount – the Lord ’s Prayer. Do you actually presume to know that everyone listening to Jesus was saved? That is patently ridiculous. Just look at scripture.

The Lord's Prayer
Pray, then, in this way:
Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For Yours is the kingdom
and the power
and the glory forever.
Amen.

For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Why not try listening to the words of Jesus for a change. There they are - staring you right in the face!

8. Where in scripture does it say that we are saved by faith alone?

Thankfully the Holy Spirit is not confined to Billy's vocabulary.
Saying and teaching are two different things.
Also, the Bible is written in Hebrew and Greek, not in King James English.
It teaches it in Rom.5:1; Eph.2:8,9; Acts 16:31; Acts 10:43; John 3:16; John 3:36; 1John 5:10-13; etc. Over and over it teaches this wonderful truth, that a man is saved by faith alone.

Yet, ironically, it never EVER says that anywhere in scripture. Sola Scriptura is your metric – not mine.

As with Sola Scriptura, there are insurmountable scriptural and logical errors with the man-made doctrine of Sola Fide.

You have been reading man's philosophy and not the Bible.

Yes I have – and that would be the man-made philosophies of scripture alone and faith alone.

Peace!

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Despite continual declarations by you Prostestants to the contrary, the Catholic Church does not teach 'works/righteousness.' What does the Council of Trent say? "We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For 'if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,' as the apostle says, 'grace is no more grace' [Rom. 11:6]" (Decree on Justification 8).

Lori,

What some of us are saying, is the discussion is ignoring the facts. When I drill down to what the papacy is teaching concerning justification, it is not the same as the Bible's teaching. Therefore I reject it.

Wouldn't you reject something your church teaches you that is contrary to the Bible? In other words, wouldn't you place the Scripture above the teaching of your church?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Despite continual declarations by you Prostestants to the contrary, the Catholic Church does not teach 'works/righteousness.' What does the Council of Trent say? "We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For 'if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,' as the apostle says, 'grace is no more grace' [Rom. 11:6]" (Decree on Justification 8).

You infuse grace through the sacraments.

 

[lori4dogs]

You infuse grace through the sacraments.

I don't infuse anything, God does.

 

[billwald]

>SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

THERE MUST BE A translation problem. Either one receives justice (is justified) or one does not. The statue with "Justice" holding balance scales doesn't compute. Maybe the scales are supposed to evaluate deeds to determine the amount of punishment or reward but justice is absolute, not relative.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I don't infuse anything, God does.

No He does not! He "imputes" it by faith without sacraments - Heb. 4:5-12

 

[BobRyan]

I am still waiting to hear the answer to this --
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1555143&postcount=6

Has the new level of agreement resulted in a re-thinking of the excommunication of Luther?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

So, the Holy Spirit decided to implement your symantics garbage theory in order to make for "...more interesting reading"? Hmmm....

No, as I stated: The Holy Spirit is not subject to the vocabulary of Billy. He is sovereign and can choose the words that he wishes to use. Billy does not command God. You are very arrogant to think that you have commanded God to write the Bible in the way that you want it to be written. God wrote the Bible, not you. God chose what words should be in the Bible, not you. He chose to teach salvation by faith alone in his own words, not yours.

No matter how you slice it DHK - whether you use synonyms, antonyms, or dangling participles for that matter, the words “alone/only/sole/etc.” and the word “faith” are not found together saying that which you are trying to make them say.

The teaching is there. It is all throughout the Bible. The "BillySunday" phraseology is not there. Too bad! Don't throw a childish temper-tantrum because the wording of the Holy Spirit is not the way you like it.

Nor is the word “alone” used in conjunction with “faith” in that context anywhere in scripture. Neither is the word “only” or any other synonym for that matter. That’s fact, DHK!

Your redundant repetition gets you nowhere.

First let’s look at the verse that you quoted to which I was responding (You always leave out the relevant quotes there, DHK)

Let's look at it then. Why didn't you quote it?
You didn't like Romans 11:6?? There are many other verses you don't like, aren't there?

I will state it again (since you danced around this)

Reader please note the absence of the word "ALONE" in the scripture verse quoted by DHK. Further, please note that the word "ALONE" only appears in DHK's text. Finally, please note that the verse states "For by grace are ye saved through faith..." See? grace AND faith!

If x is alone, then y cannot be alone. Is that your logic? Is it correct? That seems to be what you are saying. Let's examine it.

By my strength alone, with my mind alone, I will go to the airport alone, and alone pick up my only daughter and bring her back alone.
By your logic if I use only my strength I cannot use my mind.
Or, if I use only my mind, I cannot use my strength.
You figure that the usage of one term disallows the usage of the other term. But that logic is flawed as is so easily illustrated.

Stand up - take your hands off of the keyboard - now read this ever so slowly...

If we are saved by GRACE ALONE, then we cannot necessarily be saved by FAITH ALONE. That is the most obvious point that you conveniently ignore with perfect regularity.

The ignorance is yours. I have illustrated this above.
Grace alone is the means of salvation.
Christ alone is the object of salvation.
Faith alone is the reception of salvation.

Thus:
Salvation is in Christ alone by faith alone through grace alone.
This is the teaching of Eph.2:8,9

That was the stated premise, DHK – to have a logical discussion with you. You know - as in theoLOGICAL?

Theology is the study of God.
But there are some that refuse any serious study of God and His word, and would just prefer worthless arguing instead.

That is the most absurd statement that I’ve heard here. If it’s by faith ALONE then it cannot be by grace ALONE.

How long is this redundant rant going to last??

Notice the absence of the word ALONE… guess where that came from DHK.

Notice that the Holy Spirit is not commanded by Billy in the choice of his words when the Scripture was penned. Because of this Billy complains and even throws temper-tantrums.

Now – show me from scripture where scripture says that we are saved by FAITH alone. It only happens in one place:

I have shown you. You reject the truth.

Neither does it say "faith" by itself.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--"faith" by itself.
You are wrong, obviously. We are justified by faith. Faith stands alone, by itself. It is faith plus nothing.

No sir - that is your belief and that verse (and no others for that matter) does not say that.

It is what the Bible teaches. If you choose not to believe the Bible that is your choice. The teaching of the above verse (Rom.5:1) is quite clear. If Romans 5:1 does not teach "justified by faith alone," then what does it teach? Your simple "No it doesn't," isn't good enough.

It IS by grace alone - yet, we must cooperate with that grace. However, this is NOT what you are claiming.

Cooperate with grace??
GRACE: God's Riches At Christ's Expense.
The grace is the blood that Christ chose to shed on the cross to atone for our sins, that we believing in that sacrificial blood, might have eternal life.
--You speak of cooperation??
What percentage of the sufferings of Christ did you share in?
How much blood did you shed? How did you help Christ atone for our sins? Are you that perfect that you helped Christ in making a perfect sacrifice in atoning for our sins. You are really making blasphemous statements here.

That's a fallacious analogy. Faith alone just isn't there DHK.

Faith and works do not go together. It is not fallacious to state that it is by faith alone, because the verse states that it is not of works. Therefore it is by faith alone. There is nothing fallacious in that at all. If it is not of works it must be of faith. What do you mean it is not there? Read it!!

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works

Besides, just look at the context here - the works spoken of are those under the Mosaic Law. This says nothing about those works which we are expected to do as Christians.
Remember this, DHK?

The verse is speaking of salvation, remember??
For by grace are ye SAVED through faith. Salvation is for the unsaved.
It is not speaking of Christians for Christians do not need to be saved.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in [DO] them" (Eph. 2:10).

Note that we "should" walk in them - not that we "shall" walk in them.

Precisely. That is what one does after they come to Christ. Salvation is first (vs. 8,9), and then good works. Good works never precede salvation.

If it is a gift from God (grace) then it (salvation) cannot be by faith alone.

Arguing for argument's sake. Pretty sad. Your statement doesn't even make sense and is hardly worth answering.
If it is a gift it must be received by faith alone.

Again, you have an insurmountable problem there, DHK. You, by keeping to a flawed and unbiblical belief, must parse, obfuscate, and employ the most laughable tortured logic I've seen in order to attempt to defend the indefensible. It's very entertaining actually – I mean, to watch how a Sola Scriptura advocate totally ignores scripture in order to support yet another man-made doctrine.

Your adamant refusal to believe the Bible is sad indeed.

So you say DHK. But you are dodging the question. If all we need is faith to be saved, then logically nothing else is required. To ignore the facts is to let prejudice overcome reason.

I don't dodge questions. I answer with the Bible which you reject.
The Bible says: "Belief (have faith) on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
--That means that all one needs to be saved is faith and faith alone, that is faith alone in the sacrificial work of Christ to be specific.
If you are calling God prejudicial and unreasonable, then you are in sad shape. You have rejected His Word, His teaching. You stand on perilous ground.

You, by the above statements, have once again proven the position that we are not saved by faith alone. If the process of salvation (and I’m glad that you now seem to agree that it is a process) includes the Holy Spirit working on someone’s heart, then salvation necessarily cannot be by faith ALONE.

1. There is no such thing as a "process of salvation."
2. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. This is taught all throughout the Bible.
3. Salvation does include the working of the Holy Spirit. That does not negate the fact that salvation is by faith alone.
--You lack teaching in the doctrine of soteriology.

 

[DHK]

continued…

And who are you to know what is in my heart or anyone’s for that matter – this is simply more utter and unadulterated pap!

That is not a good way to refer to God and His Word.
I only take the same position as the Bible and quote it. Don't get angry at the messenger. You just venting at God. I am only telling you what he says. What does he say about your good works, the state of your heart, etc. before you are saved? This really got you worked up didn't it?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--The Bible here likens the natural man to an unclean thing, and all of his good works or righteousnesses as filthy rags--totally useless worthless rags, only good to be thrown in the trash. So, are your good works before salvation. Works do not save. They are useless.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
--The answer to the three rhetorical questions is NO. You can't even do good, even if you try.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
--Take a good look at your heart.

Really, and what chapter and verse does he state that he was speaking of “…the Christian walk … not salvation”?

You referred to Galatians 5:6. That is the reference you gave without quoting it:

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
--Paul is writing to believers. Read verse one. Read the entire context. He is writing to believers about their Christian walk. It is a walk of faith that is accompanied by love. That is how the Christian walk is to be lived. Circumcision plays no part in the Christian walk.

Really DHK – I am surprised! Surely you know that Paul is quoting the Old Testament here.

Psalm 53:1-5 (King James Version)

And this has any relevance why? All of the authors of the NT quote or refer at one time or another to the OT. Is that unusual to you? Or is it unlawful to you? Why are you condemning Paul? What did he do wrong here? Now this OT passage has become NT passage. It still is truth that you cannot avoid.

Notice there are two groups being discussed here.

1) the children of men (workers of iniquity)
-- and --
2) my [God’s] people

One of these groups has become filthy; there are none that do good, no, not one – those who eat up my people as they eat bread and have not called upon God.

The other group (God's people) are not the ones being discussed here. It’s pretty clear actually. Again, this scripture just doesn't say what you are trying to make it say.

Paul is not expounding Psalm 53 as you are. He quotes from it, yes. But now the context is different. You must use the NT context, not the OT context. The entire Psalm is not quoted, only those verses which are relevant to what Paul is discussing--the depravity of man.

How convenient – again, you didn’t answer my question.

Through all your complaining and argumentation I didn't see a question.

However, that time has not yet come to pass, so please answer the question.

If salvation is the greatest thing that we can obtain, and it is by faith alone that we obtain it, then faith should be greater than love right? Unfortunately, the bible says differently.

The Bible doesn't teach "Billy-philosophy."
Salvation is by faith alone. Thus faith is very important. If the only chapter you read in the Bible was Heb.11 then you might come to the conclusion that faith is the most important thing in the Bible. But you chose 1Cor.13 instead. This chapter is one of three chapters that speak on spiritual gifts. The greatest gift is love. It is greater than the other two mentioned because it will last longer, and that is all.

Salvation is also by grace alone. In that grace you find love. If it weren't for the love of Christ there would be no salvation. You will find both love and faith here:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That is correct – there are no contradictions in scripture which is why you must dance around the scripture that doesn’t agree with you using
unsupportable scriptural gymnastics to hold up you belief system.

So DHK - why is your interpretation any less fallible than mine or anyone's for that matter, hmm...?

continued…

Billy, you use your opinions, your philosophy, your arguments, etc.
I use the Word of God, and present you with what God says about various subjects. You can choose to accept it or reject it.

 

[DHK]

Again – that is your necessarily skewed interpretation. James clearly states the exact opposite of what you are claiming. It says what it says, DHK.

So you take the position that the Bible contradicts itself. I don't.

Incorrect! You can’t deny with a straight face what scripture says and I’ve shown you this before.

The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed. Why are you trying to adulterate the simple gospel message with other doctrinal issues. Those who do such, Paul said "let him be accursed," (Gal.1:8)

Jeremiah 17:10 (King James Version)

Revelation 2:23 (King James Version)
Revelation 20:12 (King James Version)

And finally...
Romans 2:5-7
8 but wrath and fury [eternal damnation] to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

That’s what judgment is all about DHK and no one can avoid it. Saved or unsaved, we will all be called to account and that is something that both you and I will have to deal with.

But that has nothing to do with the simple message of the gospel--the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is absolutely incorrect and is really just a matter of common sense. Belief is a mental choice – an assent of the will – an act – a work. You just can’t get around those works can you DHK.

Typing a response to you is work. It involves the work of my fingers on a keyboard. One might say that reading through all this is work. But the simple decision whether to believe or disbelieve what you have to say is not work at all. It is simply a decision.
Take the testimony of Josh McDowell.
He set out to prove Christ wrong--to disprove his deity, that he was not God. All the research he did was work--a great deal of work. The more research he did, the more he was convinced that the claims of Christ were true. Eventually he was saved, for he was convinced of the bodily resurrection and the veracity of the claims of Christ. It was work that he did. But the decision to trust him; the choice that he made; the act of receiving or believing on Him was not a work. There was no work involved.

Well, does that mean that the disciples must do something different than the rest of us in order to be saved? It does according to your logic. Again – look at the Sermon on the Mount – the Lord ’s Prayer. Do you actually presume to know that everyone listening to Jesus was saved? That is patently ridiculous. Just look at scripture.

Don't have to look at, what I already have memorized.
Jesus is speaking to his disciples. His disciples are already saved. They don't need to be saved again and again and again. They are already believers. The Lord's Prayer might be more accurately called "The Disciple's Prayer" for it is a model prayer for Christ's disciples to learn how to pray. They asked "Lord teach us to pray."

The Lord's Prayer
Pray, then, in this way:
Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For Yours is the kingdom
and the power
and the glory forever.
Amen.

For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Why not try listening to the words of Jesus for a change. There they are - staring you right in the face!

Why not try looking at the context for once. It also stares you in the face. The context is Jesus teaching his disciples to pray. His disciples did not need salvation. His latter teaching is on the importance of forgiveness. He was not teaching that they would lose their salvation.

Yet, ironically, it never EVER says that anywhere in scripture. Sola Scriptura is your metric – not mine.

I quoted many references where the teaching of "faith alone" is taught. You reject them all. Your rejection of Scripture is astounding! Here they are again.

It teaches it in Rom.5:1; Eph.2:8,9; Acts 16:31; Acts 10:43; John 3:16; John 3:36; 1John 5:10-13; etc. Over and over it teaches this wonderful truth, that a man is saved by faith alone.

Yes I have – and that would be the man-made philosophies of scripture alone and faith alone.

Peace!

Well, at least you admit that you have been reading man-made philosophies. That is your downfall.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
So, the Holy Spirit decided to implement your symantics garbage theory in order to make for "...more interesting reading"? Hmmm....

No, as I stated: The Holy Spirit is not subject to the vocabulary of Billy. He is sovereign and can choose the words that he wishes to use. Billy does not command God. You are very arrogant to think that you have commanded God to write the Bible in the way that you want it to be written. God wrote the Bible, not you. God chose what words should be in the Bible, not you. He chose to teach salvation by faith alone in his own words, not yours.

Well I can just as easily turn this around on you DHK.

The Holy Spirit is not subject to the vocabulary of DHK. He is sovereign (hmmm… this sounds suspiciously Calvinistic to me) and can choose the words that he wishes to use. DHK does not command God. You are very arrogant to think that you have commanded God to write the Bible in the way that you [DHK] want it to be written. God wrote the Bible, not you [DHK]. God chose what words should be in the Bible, not you [DHK].

This is more of the same drivel from you DHK.

He chose to teach salvation by faith alone in his own words, not yours.

Really – and where did God teach that DHK because you have yet to give me one single verse stating that salvation is by faith alone. However, I have shown you scripture which plainly shows the opposite teaching.

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
No matter how you slice it DHK - whether you use synonyms, antonyms, or dangling participles for that matter, the words “alone/only/sole/etc.” and the word “faith” are not found together saying that which you are trying to make them say.

The teaching is there. It is all throughout the Bible. The "BillySunday" phraseology is not there. Too bad! Don't throw a childish temper-tantrum because the wording of the Holy Spirit is not the way you like it.

According to who - you? Right… such a scholarly response from you DHK.

If x is alone, then y cannot be alone. Is that your logic? Is it correct? That seems to be what you are saying. Let's examine it.

By my strength alone, with my mind alone, I will go to the airport alone, and alone pick up my only daughter and bring her back alone.
By your logic if I use only my strength I cannot use my mind.
Or, if I use only my mind, I cannot use my strength.
You figure that the usage of one term disallows the usage of the other term. But that logic is flawed as is so easily illustrated.

Yes - flawed logic is so easily illustrated...

It’s really astounding that DHK will waste so much time flailing away at his keyboard all the while never understanding the underlying problems with the idea of faith “alone”. I assume his ignorance comes from his apparent inability to look at the language itself.

Let’s start with the definition of the word “alone”, shall we?

Main Entry: 1alone
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈlōn\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from al all + one one
Date: 13th century
1 : separated from others : ISOLATED
2 : exclusive of anyone or anything else : ONLY
3 a : considered without reference to any other
b : INCOMPARABLE, UNIQUE

In other words, if something is alone, then it is necessarily exclusive to anything else. Thus, (bear with me here DHK), if you are on the one hand claiming faith alone is all that is required for salvation, and on the other you say that its grace alone AND faith alone, then you have a fallacy both logically and semantically (not to mention the insurmountable problem with it scripturally). Look DHK – I didn’t coin the phrase “faith alone” Luther did, so deal with it – and deal with you shall – continually.

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
If we are saved by GRACE ALONE, then we cannot necessarily be saved by FAITH ALONE. That is the most obvious point that you conveniently ignore with perfect regularity.

The ignorance is yours. I have illustrated this above.
Grace alone is the means of salvation.
Christ alone is the object of salvation.
Faith alone is the reception of salvation.

Thus:
Salvation is in Christ alone by faith alone through grace alone.
This is the teaching of Eph.2:8,9

That’s complete trash as is evident from actually looking at Eph. 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith.” There you have it DHK – its grace through faith and consequently it cannot be by faith alone.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--"faith" by itself.
You are wrong, obviously. We are justified by faith. Faith stands alone, by itself. It is faith plus nothing.

Wow – I’ve never seen anyone contradict themselves so much with perfect regularity within the same missive. You just got through stating that:

Thus:
Salvation is in Christ alone by faith alone through grace alone.
This is the teaching of Eph.2:8,9

And now you are saying:

We are justified by faith. Faith stands alone, by itself. It is faith plus nothing.

I’ll give you one thing here DHK - at least you are consistently inconsistent.

The teaching of the above verse (Rom.5:1) is quite clear. If Romans 5:1 does not teach "justified by faith alone," then what does it teach? Your simple "No it doesn't," isn't good enough.

(Rom.5:1)
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Quite clear hmmm? It doesn’t say justified by faith “ALONE” does it DHK? You just added that word to scripture. Show me scripture stating that precept, and I will believe you. Unfortunately (and you already know this) you cannot because it doesn’t exist.

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
It IS by grace alone - yet, we must cooperate with that grace. However, this is NOT what you are claiming.

Cooperate with grace??
GRACE: God's Riches At Christ's Expense.
The grace is the blood that Christ chose to shed on the cross to atone for our sins, that we believing in that sacrificial blood, might have eternal life.

Here we go again! Why don’t you do everyone a favor and buy a good dictionary.

Main Entry: co•op•er•ate
Pronunciation: \kō-ˈä-pə-ˌrāt\
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Late Latin cooperatus, past participle of cooperari, from Latin co- + operari to work — more at OPERATE
Date: 1582
1 : to act or work with another or others : act together or in compliance
2 : to associate with another or others for mutual benefit

Do you not act in compliance with God’s grace? You freely accept it don’t you? If you do, then you most certainly cooperate with it.

--You speak of cooperation??
What percentage of the sufferings of Christ did you share in?
How much blood did you shed? How did you help Christ atone for our sins? Are you that perfect that you helped Christ in making a perfect sacrifice in atoning for our sins. You are really making blasphemous statements here.

This is more sophistry. When you have a cogent argument please present it.
Look – Paul said it best.

Colossians 1:24: "Now I [Paul] rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church."

Paul doesn’t mean that Christ’s death is insufficient for universal redemption. He is simply saying that his own incorporation into the mystical body of Christ (the Church) means that his sufferings can be helpful for other members of the body (the Colossian Christians to whom he is writing).

Incorporation into the body of Christ and suffering is most certainly cooperation with God’s grace.

Faith and works do not go together. It is not fallacious to state that it is by faith alone, because the verse states that it is not of works.

Therefore it is by faith alone. There is nothing fallacious in that at all. If it is not of works it must be of faith. What do you mean it is not there? Read it!!

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works

Yet, it does not exclude everything else such as love, repentance, forgiveness, and a host of other things that you routinely ignore. Again – you have a real logical problem with your position DHK. The word “alone” is your word and not that of scripture.

continued...

 

[BillySunday1935]

continued…

Originally Posted by BillySunday1935
You, by the above statements, have once again proven the position that we are not saved by faith alone. If the process of salvation (and I’m glad that you now seem to agree that it is a process) includes the Holy Spirit working on someone’s heart, then salvation necessarily cannot be by faith ALONE.

1. There is no such thing as a "process of salvation."

Well scripture says that there is and I’ve shown you this before:
Here it is again:

"I have been saved"
Ephesians 2:4-5:
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

"I am being saved"
1 Corinthians 1:18:
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 15:2 “Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain”.

"I will be saved"
Mark 13:13:
You will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Rom 5:9 “How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath”.

Acts 2:41-47
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Like it or not, salvation is clearly a process.

2. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. This is taught all throughout the Bible.

You keep saying that, yet you can never provide one scripture stating that we are saved by faith alone.

3. Salvation does include the working of the Holy Spirit. That does not negate the fact that salvation is by faith alone.
--You lack teaching in the doctrine of soteriology.

If by that you mean that I lack the teaching of puritanical zealots, then I would agree with you.

Peace!