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Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

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Andre

Well-Known Member
The problem is there are statements that say those justified by faith "shall not come into condemnation but are passed from death unto life" but there are no statements in scripture that anyone will pass the judgement based upon their works.
The irony here is that the Romans 8:1 statement about not coming condemnation are followed by an explanation as to the basis of not coming into condemnation.

And that explanation is that God will transform that person through the Spirit so that they will put the misdeeds of the body to death and yes, get (eternal) life as the result.

Romans 8 is another reason to believe that Paul means what he says in Romans 2 – that eternal life is granted based on the good works manifested in the life of the believer.

In Romans 8, Paul writes this:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Why is there no condemnation, that is why can those “in Christ Jesus” expect eternal life? Paul goes on immediately to tell us why. Note all the “for”s here – they serve the same function here as the word “because”:

For (D)the law of the Spirit of life in (E)Christ Jesus (F)has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the (J)requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Why is there no condemnation?” Because (for) we have been set free from slavery to sin so that……what?

So that we can walk according to the Spirit – do good works as the Spirit enables us.

That is why there is no condemnation – we are enabled to walk according to the Spirit. Notice that Paul did not say “there is no condemnation because you have mentally assented to the proposition that Jesus is Lord and has died for your sins”.

What Paul says here is precisely what we need to know to make sense of what he has said in Romans 2, where he said, clearly, that eternal life goes to those who do good.
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
The irony here is that the Romans 8:1 statement about not coming condemnation are followed by an explanation as to the basis of not coming into condemnation.

And that explanation is that God will transform that person through the Spirit so that they will put the misdeeds of the body to death and yes, get (eternal) life as the result.

Romans 8 is another reason to believe that Paul means what he says in Romans 2 – that eternal life is granted based on the good works manifested in the life of the believer.

In Romans 8, Paul writes this:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Why is there no condemnation, that is why can those “in Christ Jesus” expect eternal life? Paul goes on immediately to tell us why. Note all the “for”s here – they serve the same function here as the word “because”:

For (D)the law of the Spirit of life in (E)Christ Jesus (F)has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the (J)requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Why is there no condemnation?” Because (for) we have been set free from slavery to sin so that……what?

So that we can walk according to the Spirit – do good works as the Spirit enables us.

That is why there is no condemnation – we are enabled to walk according to the Spirit. Notice that Paul did not say “there is no condemnation because you have mentally assented to the proposition that Jesus is Lord and has died for your sins”.

What Paul says here is precisely what we need to know to make sense of what he has said in Romans 2, where he said, clearly, that eternal life goes to those who do good.

I am sure brother walter will do a better job than me, but your statement of the counter-argument, namely, "there is no condemnation because you have mentally assented to the proposition that Jesus is Lord and has died for your sins" as somehow representing the protestant (biblical) position is a false characterization. Basically, it's a straw man.
 

Andre

Well-Known Member
I am sure brother walter will do a better job than me, but your statement of the counter-argument, namely, "there is no condemnation because you have mentally assented to the proposition that Jesus is Lord and has died for your sins" as somehow representing the protestant (biblical) position is a false characterization. Basically, it's a straw man.
The point is that Romans 8 makes it clear that the reason why there is no condemnation is that those in Christ Jesus are enabled to walk in the Spirit and thereby attain eternal life.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
It is amazing that you can attribute the words "shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life" to Romans 8:1 when in fact it taken from John 5:24.

At least on another thread you have finally admitted that the statement in Romans 2 can be legitimately understood only to mean "IF eternal life were gained by works this is what must be demanded to do so." Indeed, that is all you really can get from this text. But I commend you upon at least admitting it is a possible interpretation.

What I find amusing is that I also gave you explicit passages, both of which are written to born again believers (not the lost) that explicitly state that "no flesh" and "no man" can be justified by works in the sight of God and you just dismiss them. Neither text says that "no flesh" or "no man" can be made a Jew in the sight of God by works of the law but that is exactly the interpretation you give both.

What you and all legalist must do is deny that the law in question is the law of right and wrong and mans attempt to do what is right in order to obtain justification in God's sight. I have proven that on another thread.


The irony here is that the Romans 8:1 statement about not coming condemnation are followed by an explanation as to the basis of not coming into condemnation.

And that explanation is that God will transform that person through the Spirit so that they will put the misdeeds of the body to death and yes, get (eternal) life as the result.

Romans 8 is another reason to believe that Paul means what he says in Romans 2 – that eternal life is granted based on the good works manifested in the life of the believer.

In Romans 8, Paul writes this:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Why is there no condemnation, that is why can those “in Christ Jesus” expect eternal life? Paul goes on immediately to tell us why. Note all the “for”s here – they serve the same function here as the word “because”:

For (D)the law of the Spirit of life in (E)Christ Jesus (F)has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the (J)requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Why is there no condemnation?” Because (for) we have been set free from slavery to sin so that……what?

So that we can walk according to the Spirit – do good works as the Spirit enables us.

That is why there is no condemnation – we are enabled to walk according to the Spirit. Notice that Paul did not say “there is no condemnation because you have mentally assented to the proposition that Jesus is Lord and has died for your sins”.

What Paul says here is precisely what we need to know to make sense of what he has said in Romans 2, where he said, clearly, that eternal life goes to those who do good.
 
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Dr. Walter

New Member
The point is that Romans 8 makes it clear that the reason why there is no condemnation is that those in Christ Jesus are enabled to walk in the Spirit and thereby attain eternal life.

Romans 8:1-27 is not talking about justification before God. However, this is what you must force into this text in order to teach your works for justification position. Romans 7:18-8:26 is talking about progressive sanctification without (Romans 7:18-25) and with the Spirit of God (Romans 8:1-26).

Romans 7:21-25 is essential to understand before you can even come close to correctly interpreting Romans 8:1-13. It is obvious to me that you don't have a clue to these verses and for me take the time and exegetically explain it to you will probably be a waste of time because you are trying to defend a position rather than open to truth and so it would be pointless to address a closed minded person. It would be like throwing pearls before the swine who will just turn and rend.

It is obvious you don't know the difference between justification in the sight of God and progressive sanctification and as long as you have that confusion in your mind it is hopless to discuss the issue at all with you. However, a clue for you is that justification is not mentioned in this text (Romans 8:1-15) from which you are trying to draw a defense for your position.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Romans 8 is another reason to believe that Paul means what he says in Romans 2 – that eternal life is granted based on the good works manifested in the life of the believer.



. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the (J)requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.



That is actually a good point about how it is that our faith "Establishes the Law of God" Rom 3:31 instead of abolishing it.

and of course - it fits perfectly with Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Romans 7:21-25 is essential to understand before you can even come close to correctly interpreting Romans 8:1-13. It is obvious to me that you don't have a clue ...It is obvious you don't know the difference...as long as you have that confusion in your mind it is hopless to discuss ... However, a clue for you is that justification is not mentioned in this text .

Good news then -

Justification is mentioned in Romans 2:11-16.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Rom 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
In Paul's writings - God's Law is always upheld - and sin, rebellion is always condemned. (Even in Romans 7)

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

What a wonderful solution then - is Romans 8

Romans 8
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 
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Dr. Walter

New Member
The point is that Romans 8 makes it clear that the reason why there is no condemnation is that those in Christ Jesus are enabled to walk in the Spirit and thereby attain eternal life.

Are you able to think outside your little box of justification by works? For example, in all of Paul's epistles where the subject is justification before God he consistently contrasts "grace" to "works" and contrasts "faith" to "works." So in the context of justification before God both grace and faith are seen as consistent with each other but in contrast to "works".

In addition, the contrast "works" is further explained in the same context to be "deeds" and both are defined as something a person will "do" in contrast to "grace" and "faith." Also, "faith" is further explained by such words as "hearing" of faith in contrast to "works." This can be seen very clearly at the beginning of Galatians 3 in the following contrasts:

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Now Paul is contrasting how one BECAME a christian versus how one CONTINUES to be a Christian "Are ye so foolish? having BEGUN in the Spirit, are ye NOW made perfect by the flesh?" - v. 3

Here is another descriptive of "grace" "faith" "hearing of faith" and that is "by the Spirit." Here is another descriptive of "works" "deeds" "do" and "works of the law" and that is "by the flesh."

Now, your system of interpretation demands that "works" "deeds" "do" "works of the law" and "by the flesh" refers to becoming a Jew in order to be justified. Then in contrast your system of interpretation demands that "grace" "faith" "hearing of faith" "by the Spirit" refers to continuing in good works for justification before God to obtain eternal life.

If continuing in good works is "hearing of faith" in this context (repeated twice in contrast to works of the law) then why does Paul immediately follow this context by using the illustration of Abraham as the model for "hearing of faith" in regard to initial gospel conversion (Gal. 3:6-8) as "Believed" is Aorist in tense referring to a completed action in the past?

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Also, why is the argument between Paul and the Judizers introduced in Galatians 1:6-9 as a contrast between the gospel of grace (vv. 6-7) and "another gospel" if the actual difference is not the "gospel" content of works versus grace but rather the LIFE lived under the ten commandments versus the LIFE lived under the Mosaic covenant?? Why would Paul contrast the difference to be with the reception of his GOSPEL verse "being made perfect by the flesh" (Gal. 3:4) if it were really between LIVING A LIFE OF GOOD WORKS versus LIVING A LIFE AS A JEW for justification.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
Thank you for proving my point. You could not find "justification" or "justify" or "justified" in Romans 8:1-16 but had to go to contexts where you could find them.

Good news then -

Justification is mentioned in Romans 2:11-16.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Rom 3
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
Explain Romans 7:21-25 and especially Romans 7:25b in view of what has been said in Romans 7:18-24 without denying what it says.

In Paul's writings - God's Law is always upheld - and sin, rebellion is always condemned. (Even in Romans 7)

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

What a wonderful solution then - is Romans 8

Romans 8
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

Dr. Walter

New Member
You present a straw man. We are created "unto good works" and all who love the Lord will obey his commandments. However, it is the purpose for obeying those commandments and the extent of obedience that is the issue.

In Paul's writings - God's Law is always upheld - and sin, rebellion is always condemned. (Even in Romans 7)

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

What a wonderful solution then - is Romans 8

Romans 8
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

Andre

Well-Known Member
It is amazing that you can attribute the words "shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life" to Romans 8:1 when in fact it taken from John 5:24.
Again, my getting these texts mixed up does not fundamentally change the point. In the Romans 8 texts we have a statement that the believer is not going to be subject to condemnation. And as my argument shows, the reason this is so is because the believer is empowered, via the Spirit to do good works that lead to life:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Jesus' saying from John 5 in no subverts what Paul is saying - what Jesus says is entirely consistent with Paul's view that ultimate salvation is by good works. And this is precisely because the believer is indeed ensured of ultimate good works based salvation because of the gift of the Spirit.

At least on another thread you have finally admitted that the statement in Romans 2 can be legitimately understood only to mean "IF eternal life were gained by works this is what must be demanded to do so."
I did nothing of the kind, unless I did not express myself clearly. I wrote that it was possible for Paul to make that kind of argument, but that there was no actual evidence for such a reading.

So I never stated that it was a legitimate reading of the text - my intent was merely to assert that if Paul really believed that salvation could not be attained by good works, he might have made his argument by saying something like "Look, you Romans, if salvation were possible by good works, God would grant eternal life in that way. But that is not possible, so salvation is achieved some other way."

I see no evidence at all for Paul making such an argument.
 

Andre

Well-Known Member
What I find amusing is that I also gave you explicit passages, both of which are written to born again believers (not the lost) that explicitly state that "no flesh" and "no man" can be justified by works in the sight of God and you just dismiss them.
I did nothing of the kind. Perhaps I did not address each and every text. But, at least in the case of the statement near the end of Romans 3, I have made the case that Paul is making the very specific argument that salvation cannot be achieved by performing the works of the Law of Moses. This is decidedly not the same thing as denying that one can be saved by good works. And this is a good thing, because Paul has told us in Romans 2, and will tell us again in Romans 8, that ultimate salvation is indeed based on good works.

But give any text you like - I am quite convinced that Paul never makes any kind of assertion that one cannot be saved (or justified) by good works.

What you and all legalist must do is deny that the law in question is the law of right and wrong and mans attempt to do what is right in order to obtain justification in God's sight. I have proven that on another thread.
No you have not proven this. Any statement by Paul that denies ultimate justification by good works is demonstrably a denial that salvation to the Jew - to the person who does the works of the Law of Moses.

No exceptions - Paul is perfectly consistent and he most certainly does not contradict his "final salvation by good works" statements of Romans 2, Romans 8, and 2 Corinthians 5.
 

Andre

Well-Known Member
Romans 8:1-27 is not talking about justification before God.
Really? How is the following text not clearly an articulation of a doctrine of ultimate salvation by "walking in the Spirit"?:

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Consider verse 13. It is a clear "if you do A then B will happen" statement.

How much clearer can an english statement be?: If by the the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body you will.......what? Get rewards over and above eternal life?

No. Paul is clear - if by the Spirit you put the misdeeds of the body to death, you will live. And from the verse 11 context, this has to be an allusion to eternal life ("life to your mortal bodies").
 

Andre

Well-Known Member
Romans 7:21-25 is essential to understand before you can even come close to correctly interpreting Romans 8:1-13. It is obvious to me that you don't have a clue to these verses and for me take the time and exegetically explain it to you will probably be a waste of time because you are trying to defend a position rather than open to truth and so it would be pointless to address a closed minded person. It would be like throwing pearls before the swine who will just turn and rend.
You are a rude and insulting person. Is this one of the fruits of the Spirit in your life?

In any event, I will make an argument below that you have entirely mistaken the meaning of Romans 7. We shall see if you engage the argument or continue taking the low road of insulting pot-shots.

It is obvious you don't know the difference between justification in the sight of God and progressive sanctification and as long as you have that confusion in your mind it is hopless to discuss the issue at all with you. However, a clue for you is that justification is not mentioned in this text (Romans 8:1-15) from which you are trying to draw a defense for your position.
1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

And there are other arguments that I am more than happy to make.

Romans 7 is not a description of sanctification - it is Paul's reflection on the continuing state of the Jew under the Law of Moses.
 

Andre

Well-Known Member
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That is actually a good point about how it is that our faith "Establishes the Law of God" Rom 3:31 instead of abolishing it.

and of course - it fits perfectly with Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob
Actually Bob, I think we may end up disagreeing on exactly what has been established in Romans 3:31. I believe that in that verse, Paul is not actually written to the written code of the Law of Moses. I say this because I think it is clear from places like Ephesians and Galatians that Paul believes that the Law of Moses has actually been retired.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
Neither Bob or Andre understand that the justified condition of the child of God there is still the principle of death at work in them - obviously demonstrated in their physical death.

The justified man are "dead" to sin in the sense they are emancipated from its dominion over them. They are not dead experientially to sin as it is very much alive within the saint (Rom. 7:25). They are no longer under the law Like a slave that has been emancipated from legal slavery. They are FREE from the law's condemnation and penalty. However, they are not free from the power/influence of indwelling sin. It should be obvious since born again people are not sinless.

Romans 7:18-8:15 deals with indwelling sin and the principle of death still at work within every born again child of God.

Romans 7:18-25 proves that neither the born again new nature "the inward man" who delights after the law of God nor the born again man's "will" power is able to overcome the power of indwelling sin and NEVER will completely overcome it as long as they are in the unglorified state as Romans 7;25 clearly and explicitly states.

Romans 7:25 distinguishes the difference between indwelling sin who wages its war through the flesh with inward man who wages its war through the "MIND" of the saint. Thus, Paul pits the "law of sin" in "my members" with the "law of the mind" because in Romans 7:18-21 the mental willingness of a born again child of God is to resist sin but he lacks power. Thus the "mind" becomes the distinction between the born again man and the unregenerate man in Romans 8:5-7. Those who "walk after the Spirit" are defined as those who "MIND the things of the Spirit" whereas those who "walk after the flesh" are defined as those who MIND "the things of the flesh." The difference between the unregenerate and regenerate is the MIND SET (Rom. 7:25) which is determined by possessing the "inward man" who delights after the law of God (Rom. 7:21). Thus in Romans 8:1 those who are "in Christ" and who are no longer under condemnation are those who "walk after the Spirit" and not after the flesh.

This "walk" is characteristic rather than perfect as Romans 7:25 necessarily infers, as the born again man still SERVES "the law of sin" in his members as well as SERVES "the law of His mind."

The issue is how does the born again gain the victory over indwelling sin WHEN he is victorious in this ongoing battle described in Romans 7:25? Paul has ruled out any power coming from the "inward man" or from the "will" power of the saint (Romans 7:18-25).

Victory over indwelling sin comes in three ways. First, it comes from "the Spirit of life IN CHRIST JESUS" who defeated it in life and death manifest in resurrection (Rom. 8:2-3). Second, it comes through the Indwelling Spirit who provides power to enable the inward man to express the will of God in the life of the believer (Rom. 8:4). This is the essential distinction between the lost man and the saved man (Romans 8:5-9). Last, it comes by glorification.

However, sin and death are still at work through the members of our body (Romans 7:25). Whenever, and whatever time we are victorious over sin and death (which works through us overpowering our "will" or "the law of the mind"), it is because by faith we RECKON the body dead where indwelling sin abides and by faith submit to the indwelling Spirit of God so that the Spirit of life seen in the person of Christ is manifested through us instead of DEATH which is manifested through us by indwelling sin:


10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Now the body is not experientially dead but very much alive. However, it is to be reckoned as dead by faith because Christ's death freed us, emancipated us from its LEGAL DOMAIN. Likewise, the Spirit of life indwells us but in order to EXPERIENCE the life of Christ or his righteousness we must RECKON by faith our position in Christ and willingly submit to indwelling Spirit instead of engaging sin by our own will power. The Spirit that indwells us is the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and will eventually raise us from the dead to complete victory over indwelling sin:

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

We have been emancipated from the domain of sin and therefore we are not indebted to remain under the power of sin simply because we have no power to overcome it.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Because, if you attempt to live the Christian life after the flesh as demonstrated in Romans 7:18-21 ye shall die - meaning death will be manifested through you by indwelling sin. But, if by faith we put to death "the body" where indwelling sin operates through (Rom. 7:25) we shall live - meaning the life of Christ will be manifested through us.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This is who indwelling sin or the law of sin in my members is conquerored on a daily basis. This is how we "redeem the time" on a daily basis. This is how we make our life count for Christ on a daily basis. This is how we keep from losing our lives on a daily basis. This is not about eternal life or eternal death but about how a Christian wins over indwelling sin daily. He never wins completely in this life because as Paul says in Romans 7:25:

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:25b


Gal. 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Romans 7:18-8:15 is not talking about the doctrine of justification but progressive sanctification. It is not talking about gaining eternal life in heaven but about gaining daily victory over indwelling sin.
 
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Andre

Well-Known Member
Are you able to think outside your little box of justification by works? For example, in all of Paul's epistles where the subject is justification before God he consistently contrasts "grace" to "works" and contrasts "faith" to "works." So in the context of justification before God both grace and faith are seen as consistent with each other but in contrast to "works".
No. As I have argued in relation to Romans 3:27 - and can also argue in respect denials of "justification by works", in each case, the context shows that what Paul is really denying is that one can be saved by doing the works of the Law of Moses. This is decidedly not a denial of ultimate salvation by good works.

Yes, Paul contrasts faith with "works", but not with "good works" as you seem to believe, but rather with the works of the Law of Moses. In essence, Paul is making the argument that justification and salvation are not limited to those who do the Law of Moses.

That is, Jews.

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
This is another example of Paul making an argument not against justification by good works, but rather about how salvation is not limited to those who do the works of the Law of Moses - that is, Jews. How do we know this. Consider what Paul writes immediately following:

Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[b] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Paul is clearly telling the Jew to not make the mistake that membership in God's true family excludes Gentiles. And the perfect way to make that case is to deny that doing the works of the Law of Moses justify. Why? Because the only ones who can do the Law of Moses are those to whom it was given.

Jews.
 

Dr. Walter

New Member
Gentleman, below is your problem with the scriptures:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That is not an insult but a serious estimation of your spiritual condition in regard to your doctrinal fruits (Mt. 7:16-20).
 
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