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Josie the Outlaw: Message to Police

Gina B

Active Member
No, I don't think so. I know so. Prohibition flattened the per captia consumption for years, not just during the alcohol ban, but for 20-30 years afterward. Additionally, deaths from alcoholism per 100,000 people peaked at 10.0 just prior to the enactment of the Volstead Act. It currently stands at 1.6 per 100K.

Continues, not remains at the high rate it was in 1919. Consumption is lower as well, with the peak consumption rate being 2.6 gallons per year by each U.S. resident of legal drinking age. In 2011, the year for which consumption is most recently available, the number was 2.22 gallons per person of legal drinking age.

I think you give Josie way too much credit. She is a typical "free everything" young person who doesn't want to be bothered by laws, restrictions, authority, or responsibility. The fact she wants to be allowed to use some of the most dangerous drugs in the world freely without consequence gives the lie to her "cause," since she will pay the consequences for such usage whether in the legal realm or the healthcare realm. It is of no difference, she will pay. She's going to wish she had exercised the self-control the laws engender.

If you saw the people I see on a weekly basis -- worse, had you seen the people I saw when I was earning my stripes in the non-profit arena -- you wouldn't consider enforcement, or the regulations, "petty." Today's "minor problems" are just two or three steps from tomorrow's gutter drunk or back-alley shooter. I'm not for prohibition of alcohol, as it is legal and shutting down the breweries, wineries, distilleries, etc., would put too many good people out of work.

That said, I can testify to the facts. More than 700,000 Americans receive alcoholism treatment every day, but there is growing recognition that alcoholism -- i.e., alcohol dependence or addition -- represents only one end of the spectrum of “alcohol misuse.” Though significantly less than prior to Prohibition, there are still approximately 79,000 deaths attributable to excessive alcohol use each year in the United States.

The cost of alcohol misuse in the United States was estimated to be $185 billion in 1998. About $16 billion of this amount was spent on medical care for alcohol-related complications, not including fetal alcohol syndrome [FAS], $7.5 billion was spent on specialty alcohol treatment services, and $2.9 billion was spent on FAS treatment. The remaining costs ($134 billion) were due to lost productivity. Lost productivity due to alcohol-related deaths and disabilities impose a greater economic burden than do health care costs. Over 15% of U.S. workers report being impaired by alcohol at work at least one time during the past year, and 9% of workers reported being hung-over at work.

And you want to add legal recreational drug use to these numbers? That's pure insanity.

Based on the facts I've given you here, perhaps it would behoove us to consider what laws we might be breaking, and consider not breaking them. Or have we already forgotten Paul's words?
Romans 13, NASB
1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid ; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.​
Honestly, if some of you could follow me around for a week, I don't think you'd be so anxious to turn people loose and let them use anything they want. It is sheer uninformed stupidity to think that's a good idea.

Could you point out in the video where she says anything about "all dangerous drugs?" She speaks only about marijuana, yet people are jumping on this as "dangerous drugs" and "everyone using whatever they want" and acting as if she is on the video screaming for rampant drug abuse.

BTW, I'm for the legalization of marijuana. I'm against recreational use, and my children know I believe that smoking it is a not the best choice of use. I believe that as a medication, it can be a much wiser and healthier choice than some of the alternative pharmaceuticals. I'd vote to put alcohol as a prescription only medication in a flash if put to a vote against marijuana. One is a natural plant with many uses and health benefits, the other is known to cause much, much harm in our society. Common sense...but one makes the government money and the other one is too common to be very profitable.

In the verses, it talks about IF YOU DO WHAT IS EVIL, be afraid. It doesn't say to do evil because the government says so.

If you insist that one must obey the government even when it is wrong, then doesn't that mean you should cheerfully go buy you an ObamaCare package on the market? Doesn't it mean this country was founded by disobedient wrongdoers? Doesn't it mean that a number of restaurants in your area are lawbreakers, because the last time I was in there, I did NOT see a single restaurant that posted a warning sign in font over 8 points saying they were serving margarine, yet when I requested margarine, they said yes. (feel free to look up that law)

I definitely do not agree with anarchy. A lawless society obviously will not work in a godless society. However, when it becomes illegal to sell non-enriched white flour rolls if they're labeled, when I can't use a plant and instead must bleed from my kidneys to profit a drug company, when I am worried about the IRS coming after my kids in the future about their healthcare, when I look around and see a giant government that seems to be holding so many citizens by the throats...I am concerned.

It makes me think that yes, Josie has some very good points. It makes me think that yes, we have too many laws. When I look at cases across the nation and see who has enforced these laws, I don't just think, I know, that many officers should sit down and think to themselves just how far they are willing to go in obeying orders. Have you ever watched an officer hesitate and not be sure what to do, then go ahead and follow through with an order? You can see the struggle. The more laws and more strange and massive the enforcement gets, the more conflict there will be between law enforcement and citizens.

That's never a good thing.
 
Could you point out in the video where she says anything about "all dangerous drugs?" She speaks only about marijuana, yet people are jumping on this as "dangerous drugs" and "everyone using whatever they want" and acting as if she is on the video screaming for rampant drug abuse.
Gina, marijuana is the most dangerous drug on the planet, precisely because even sane, intelligent people such as yourself have bought into the lie that it is a "safe" drug. There is no "safe" drug! Marijuana has been proven to cause the following medical and mental health problems:
  • Reduces levels of testosterone, which equates to reduced ability to gain lean muscle mass. Based on this, one can say "If you smoke weed don't bother going to the weight room."
  • Reduces libido and sperm count
  • Produces sperm with abnormal chromosomes
  • Disrupts menstrual cycles
  • Produces less healthy eggs in women
  • Development of the mammary glands (gynecomastia) in men
  • Studies show that THC damages the hippocampus, a critical part of the brain in terms of learning and memory
  • Amotivational syndrome -- engenders an uncaring, unconcerned attitude toward work, school, family, etc.
  • Slows the transmission of neurochemicals due to the thickening of the walls of brain cells
  • Causes anxiety and panic reaction
  • Increases heart rate and blood pressure
  • Reduces the supply of oxygen in the blood (at a time it needs more oxygen due to increase HR and BP
  • Decreases effectiveness of the immune system

BTW, I'm for the legalization of marijuana. I'm against recreational use, and my children know I believe that smoking it is a not the best choice of use. I believe that as a medication, it can be a much wiser and healthier choice than some of the alternative pharmaceuticals.
Obviously, given the evidence against the ability to use the drug safely, you shouldn't be. And you're sending mixed signals to your children, holding those views but being for legalization.

I'd vote to put alcohol as a prescription only medication in a flash if put to a vote against marijuana.
There are no proven medical benefits -- regardless of what the so-called "medical marijuana researchers" claim -- for marijuana. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. Big fat goose egg. Zilch. It is insane to buy into the lies the marijuana industry has sold to the American public. Great, it reduces pain. So does LSD. So does cocaine. Perhaps we should legalize them, too. There are better, much safer analgesics and NSAIDS on the market that won't give you lung cancer four times faster than cigarettes, which marijuana does. It may be a decent anti-nausea medication for chemotherapy patients, but why risk the deadly side effects, which make those of traditional pharmaceuticals pale in comparison? These bogus researchers have no factual, statistical, or scientific research basis upon which to base their claims, and when you look closely at their "figures" you see that they are grossly outside the acceptable parameters of valid research done by the pharmaceutical companies, as required by the FDA.

One is a natural plant with many uses and health benefits ...
There is nothing "natural" about the marijuana grown today. It is a cultivated crop, like corn, soybeans, and wheat, and as such has had chemicals added to increase the desirable attributes of the plant -- in the case of pot, that is THC. It is ten times stronger today, bordering on 40% content in some varieties, than it was in the 1960s.

... the other is known to cause much, much harm in our society.
Through abuse, yes. In moderation, alcohol is proven to have health benefits that are totally absent in marijuana. There are several of these benefits, not the least of which is shown in Harvard's study on reduced cardiovascular disease through moderate alcohol use.

In the verses, it talks about IF YOU DO WHAT IS EVIL, be afraid. It doesn't say to do evil because the government says so.
True. And yet you would add more evil to that which the government allows and regulates by legalizing a very dangerous drug.

If you insist that one must obey the government even when it is wrong, then doesn't that mean you should cheerfully go buy you an ObamaCare package on the market?
I haven't said, "Obey the government, even when it is wrong." I do say, the government has allowed a product on the market -- alcohol -- that, if used in excess, is dangerous, but is at least neutral, and perhaps beneficial, if used in moderation. As it is a product that employs nearly a million people around the country, it would be extremely detrimental to the economy to once again shut it down. That case can't be made for marijuana. Since it became a heavily used and popular recreational drug, it has not been widely available legally, nor should it be now. We've all but shut down the tobacco industry because of it's complete lack of health benefits and for being a product that, used as directed, will kill you. This was reason enough to treat it differently than alcohol. Why add back into the problem by legalizing a product that causes all the health issues above, besides having nearly seven times the tar content as cigarettes and three times the carbon monoxide output? These will also kill you, and quicker than cigarettes.


Doesn't it mean this country was founded by disobedient wrongdoers?
Again, you are absolutely correct in stating that when the government does evil, it is to be disobeyed in favor of the law of God. George III was the embodiment of evil intent towards the Colonies, and the only choice our founders had was the revolution and war they fought to valiantly "bring forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."

Doesn't it mean that a number of restaurants in your area are lawbreakers, because the last time I was in there, I did NOT see a single restaurant that posted a warning sign in font over 8 points saying they were serving margarine, yet when I requested margarine, they said yes. (feel free to look up that law)
Totally irrelevant to the discussion. The deadly contents of margarine are so minute as to be non-existent, in comparison to that "natural plant" you are so anxious to legalize.

I definitely do not agree with anarchy. A lawless society obviously will not work in a godless society. However, when it becomes illegal to sell non-enriched white flour rolls if they're labeled, when I can't use a plant and instead must bleed from my kidneys to profit a drug company, when I am worried about the IRS coming after my kids in the future about their healthcare, when I look around and see a giant government that seems to be holding so many citizens by the throats...I am concerned.
The use of marijuana is far more dangerous to your health, physically and mentally, than using pain-killing drugs that cause the symptoms you describe in less than 1% of patients who use them. The effects I've listed caused by marijuana are nearly universal in all users, and we are beginning to get some really frightening statistics for those symptoms in so-called "medical marijuana" users who have been actively smoking four to seven joints a day for more than three years.

It makes me think that yes, Josie has some very good points.
Josie is a rebellious little anarchist who wants nothing more than her way, all the time. That attitude leads to addiction, crime, early unwanted pregnancy, bad healthcare laws. If you like that, then by all means, continue to think Josie has all the answers.

It makes me think that yes, we have too many laws.
We may indeed have too many laws. Particularly at the federal level where they seem bent on completely controlling our lives from cradle to grave. But the drug laws are not among the ones that are too numerous.

When I look at cases across the nation and see who has enforced these laws, I don't just think, I know, that many officers should sit down and think to themselves just how far they are willing to go in obeying orders.
You're inviting anarchy, and if you were to see what that looks like, you wouldn't be so quick to think that's a great idea. We need officers to think and act swiftly, not sit around and agonize over whether they should do, or sit. That is a dangerous situation in and of itself.

Have you ever watched an officer hesitate and not be sure what to do, then go ahead and follow through with an order? You can see the struggle. The more laws and more strange and massive the enforcement gets, the more conflict there will be between law enforcement and citizens.
An officer who questions whether or not he should enforce the law is in the wrong part of the justice system. He should go to law school and become a criminal defense lawyer. He has no business being on the street. Most never hesitate, and I'm grateful they don't, even if eventually the court system proves them. in that situation, to have been wrong. I'd rather they act and be wrong than hesitate and get themselves and/or others hurt or killed, or think they have a questionable situation before them and choose not to act, only to have consequences arise from that decision that could have been avoided.
 
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Gina B

Active Member
But - you actually HAVE A LAW out there that says restaurants have to have that sign. The margarine law. Seriously. Look it up. This is the type of insanity that is going on. So how is it irrelevant?

Your notes on marijuana are not dealing with medical use when needed and in comparison to prescribed drugs.
Would you compare a meth addict on the street with a cancer patient who is prescribed methadone and takes it as prescribed? I would hope not. There is a vast difference between someone using a drug for recreation and using it for medical causes, but in this case, marijuana is a natural, cost effective one with fewer, much easier to deal with side effects than the drugs most people end up being prescribed in its stead.
Again, no need to smoke it.

How on earth is alcohol neutral? So they employed a lot of people with this deadly stuff, and now it's okay because banning it would make them lose their jobs and that would be bad for the economy? What sense does that make? If you're into the law being here to make people's lives better, that would be the first thing I'd attack, were I of that mindset. There are so many lives destroyed by alcohol, so many alcoholics beating up on people, molesting their own children, driving drunk and killing people, losing their jobs, it's crazy! It's like a plague. It's addictive, and definitely a drug, so why on earth do you not consider it as such? Sure, wine has medicinal value, but so does grape juice. There are plenty of alternatives for heart health. At the least, it could be made a prescription, if one honestly feels that drugs should be regulated for the best interest of a society.
I'm even on the edge on that one. I can see where it could be beneficial to society to have that as a law. I would be very, VERY tempted to vote that in. It would go against everything I believe in, but I'd really, really want to see it be prescription only.
 
But - you actually HAVE A LAW out there that says restaurants have to have that sign. The margarine law. Seriously. Look it up. This is the type of insanity that is going on. So how is it irrelevant?
From the standpoint of a law, yes, it would be insane. But I'm not sure where you got the idea Missouri or Kansas has such a law. We don't. One was proposed before the Missouri legislature six years ago, but it never got out of committee.

Your notes on marijuana are not dealing with medical use when needed and in comparison to prescribed drugs.
I didn't think I had to, given the obvious proof for the danger of marijuana usage. Also, I wrote so much, I had to edit my post for it to be under 10,000 characters anyway. However, if you want, there is this:

The marijuana plant is made up of more than 500 chemical compounds. Many of these compounds are cannabinoids, which bind to receptors in your body and then affect your immune system and brain. Researchers have pinpointed two main cannabinoids—THC and cannabidiol, or CBD—as beneficial, Dr. ElSohly tells me. (The biggest difference: CBD doesn’t make you high.)

Trouble is, when exposed to the high temperature of a burning joint, the 500 or so chemical compounds in marijuana can produce hundreds or thousands of byproducts—many of which are thought to be carcinogens. Research suggests that marijuana smoke can contain up to 70 percent more carcinogenic materials than tobacco smoke. And while many researchers think that—logically—marijuana smoke should cause lung cancer, studies remain inconclusive. (See Does Smoking Pot Cause Lung Cancer?)

But ElSohly contends that the smoke itself isn’t the biggest issue at this point. “There’s an inherent problem with the smoking of marijuana as a delivery system,” he says.
---
But bring something you smoke to the medical world, and chances are they’ll balk at the idea. “Smoking is not an accepted route of administration for medication,” says Peter Friedmann, M.D., M.P.H., professor of Medicine & Community Health at Brown University. “There are so many variables in the smoking process. It’s ludicrous to think you could come up with a dosage,” Dr. ElSohly adds.

This is, in part, why the FDA approved Marinol—a low-dosage formulation of synthetic THC that comes in capsule form. The drug is used to stimulate appetite in people with HIV and control the nausea and vomiting that’s associated with chemotherapy. It’s a good option for people with conditions like cancer who don’t respond to common drugs. It’s also incredibly versatile. “Does it lower intraocular pressure for glaucoma patients? Yes it does. Does it reduce anxiety? Yes it does. Does it stimulate appetite? Yes it does,” Dr. ElSohly says.

The problem: Marinol is one of only two FDA-approved THC-based drugs and, unlike say, Advil, your body doesn’t absorb it well. Only about 10 to 20 percent of the dose becomes available for your body to use. That makes it unpredictable: For some people, the drug works great; others see no benefit whatsoever, says ElSohly. What’s more, it often makes those who it does work for higher than if they had smoked pot—another absorption issue.
None of these problems exist for approved pharmaceuticals already on the market for years. That is what makes the medical marijuana debate so ludicrous. The delivery system is pathetic, the effect is unpredictable and always provides less relief than other medications, and the premise is based more on the hype of "pot heads with degrees" than it is on realistic expectations and proven worth.

Would you compare a meth addict on the street with a cancer patient who is prescribed methadone and takes it as prescribed? I would hope not.
The cancer patient may claim to have a higher, more noble purpose for his/her addiction than the meth addict, but the bottom line is, the marijuana user is using a product approved on dubious research with far less effectiveness than other options, for the sole purpose of being able to legally consume marijuana. I'm sure you don't like that analysis, but it the truth. Excuses made that other drugs do more damage are based on falsehood, not fact. Other drugs are better options with far greater results and far less serious side effects.

There is a vast difference between someone using a drug for recreation and using it for medical causes ...
Totally untrue. There is very little difference at all. Again, I'm sorry, but that's the truth.

... but in this case, marijuana is a natural, cost effective one with fewer, much easier to deal with side effects than the drugs most people end up being prescribed in its stead.
And again, that claim is absolutely false. It is proven false by valid research done by the NIH and NCBI.

Again, no need to smoke it.
As is stated in the Men's Health article above, it is no more effective as a medication when taken in pill form. The pill form does eliminate the harmful, perhaps fatal, effects of smoking marijuana, but it does nothing to improve the delivery system, or the drug's effectiveness.

How on earth is alcohol neutral? So they employed a lot of people with this deadly stuff ...
Your characterization of alcohol as "deadly" is a gross exaggeration, particularly in comparison to the deadly nature of marijuana. I proved that in my previous post, through the Harvard study on alcohol use in moderation being beneficial to cardiovascular health. Marijuana can make no such claim.

... and now it's okay because banning it would make them lose their jobs and that would be bad for the economy?
Since it isn't the dangerous drug marijuana is at any level of usage, moderate or not, yes, it is OK.

What sense does that make? If you're into the law being here to make people's lives better, that would be the first thing I'd attack, were I of that mindset.
I'm not into the law making people's lives better. That would be a bad characterization of what I've been saying. I am into the law preventing the widespread, uncontrolled use of dangerous substances, and that is what marijuana laws and other laws outlawing Schedule I through IV drugs accomplish. I am all for them.

There are so many lives destroyed by alcohol ...
You're repeating yourself in spite of the fact that I've shown moderation in alcohol consumption is not going to destroy anyone, and is beneficial, while the moderate use of any Schedule I-IV drug is dangerous to mental and physical health, and costs the American people billions of dollars every year as it is. Making those drugs, or even just making marijuana, legal would add to the already burdensome expense of treating alcoholism. Were it not for the fact that alcohol has been a legal chemical for thousands of years, and has become an industry, I would not be a fan of it, either. But given there are so many dependent on its continued production, on top of the fact that moderation is not the cause of the problems associated with alcohol, I can't legitimately be against its use and sale. Because marijuana and other drugs cannot be used moderately without ill effect, and expense to the American public, and there is no legitimate industry grown up around its use and sale, I find it no contradiction to stand as I do, against legalization of those chemicals.

... so many alcoholics beating up on people, molesting their own children, driving drunk and killing people, losing their jobs, it's crazy! It's like a plague. It's addictive, and definitely a drug, so why on earth do you not consider it as such?
Now you're being irrational, because I haven't said that 1) it isn't a drug, or 2) that it isn't addictive. In fact, I gave you very solid figures on the cost to the American public on the abuse of alcohol in this country, before and after Prohibition, and the need to treat those who abuse it. Which is why I have the education I have, and do the work I do.

Sure, wine has medicinal value, but so does grape juice.There are plenty of alternatives for heart health. At the least, it could be made a prescription, if one honestly feels that drugs should be regulated for the best interest of a society.
That's a valid point, but it doesn't negate the hearth healthy aspect of moderate alcohol use, either. Also, there are a lot of other foods that are heart healthy, too. I don't advocate using cardiovascular oriented drugs in place of them, either. I can't advocate for the use of a bad, dangerous, mostly illegal drug in place of legal, safer, more effective drugs, for the same reason.

I'm even on the edge on that one. I can see where it could be beneficial to society to have that as a law. I would be very, VERY tempted to vote that in. It would go against everything I believe in, but I'd really, really want to see it be prescription only.
That validates your wrong-headed view for legalizing marijuana, so I understand why you say it. But it's still wrong-headed.
 
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Gina B

Active Member
Here is your margarine law: http://kansasstatutes.lesterama.org/Chapter_65/Article_6/#65-640

I'm pretty shocked that anyone would say that one being prescribed drugs for a medical condition and using them is no different than one using illegal drugs sourced from the streets. My only response would be to look at you as if you are from Mars, but that can't quite be done over the internet, so just try really hard to imagine it!
 
We still have a law on the books that says our restaurants can't serve cherry pie ala mode, on Sundays, and Wichita has a law against carrying a concealed bean snapper. In Missouri, a man has to have a permit to shave, and bathtubs with four feet resembling an actual animal's appendages are illegal. So what? They don't get enforced. This is what you've been talking about all along, not the drugs we've begun to discuss. But when you attempt to extend the sanity of not enforcing such stupid laws to the non-enforcement of laws truly in the public interest, such as wanting to make marijuana legal or expect police officers not to enforce them, you're getting into the realm of negligence and unthinking illogic yourself.

I'm pretty shocked that anyone would say that one being prescribed drugs for a medical condition and using them is no different than one using illegal drugs sourced from the streets.
In my line of work, I see a few medical marijuana users. They wander in here form out of state on occasion, usually getting stopped for operating a motor vehicle while under the influence. Really? Responsible people don't take medications that make them drowsy and then try to drive cross-country. These "medical marijuana" users aren't one whit different from those who use it without benefit of a "prescription." The court even sent me one guy who thought he could use his Colorado "medicinal marijuana" card in Missouri. How ignorant is that?

My only response would be to look at you as if you are from Mars, but that can't quite be done over the internet, so just try really hard to imagine it!
Oh, I can imagine it all right. Just like when a client sits across from me and says, "I don't need to quit. I'm not hurting anyone."

That's when I say, "Really? The court sent you here to see me because you've been busted for possession five times in the last eight months, you've failed two UAs in the last three months, you were seen at your house by your probation officer three weeks ago high as a kite and totally oblivious to the fact your child was wailing in his crib because his overloaded diaper smelled like an outhouse and food was burning on the stove. How is that 'not hurting anyone'?"

Then I get the look you describe. I know it well.

Sorry, Gina, I know I've probably stepped on your toes today, and I apologize. However, the bottom line, despite all the arguments you may make, is that "medicinal marijuana" is as useless as mudflaps on a turtle. Marijuana in general is just as dangerous to one's physical and mental health as those street drugs you want to separate it from. It needs to remain illegal, and the fraudulent use of it as "medicine" needs to be exposed for the folly it is. God bless.
 
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poncho

Well-Known Member
Unthinking logic? You mean like being a "conservative" and defending one of the very things that increases the size and scope of government and restricts our constitutional rights in the name of "keeping us safe" from ourselves?

Do you even know why MJ and cocaine are illegal TND?

I'll give you a hint. It has nothing to do with any alleged negative effects on our health. I'll give you another hint with MJ it's to protect rich men's profit. Cocaine is illegal because of racism against black men.

And that "scientific" study you are relying on has been shown to have used some rather unscientific methods to come the conclusions it did.

Important Cannabis-Related Studies

If we have to outlaw something that is proven to be dangerous to our health then outlaw GMOs. They are proven to cause tumors and sterility but they are a money maker for big corporations that have fought tooth and nail to keep us from knowing what foods they are in.

Don't know about you but I don't care much for being one of Monsanto's lab rats. I can choose to stay away from MJ and cocaine, not so with GMO because we aren't allowed to know what foods contain them. Why? Hint. Rich men's profits.
 
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Unthinking logic? You mean like being a "conservative" and defending one of the very things that increases the size and scope of government and restricts our constitutional rights in the name of "keeping us safe" from ourselves?

Do you even know why MJ and cocaine are illegal TND?

I'll give you a hint. It has nothing to do with any alleged negative effects on our health.

And that "scientific" study you are relying on has been shown to have used some rather unscientific methods to come the conclusions it did.

Important Cannabis-Related Studies
Pure unadulterated nonsense from the Mother Jones side of the Earth. Or is that "under the Earth"? You should write for NORML. They pay better for lies.

FYI, your denial of the proven -- not alleged -- negative physical and mental health effects of marijuana sound like they're coming from one of the people I see on a typical day. I've got an opening next Tuesday at 1:00 p.m. Want me to hold it open for you?
 
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poncho

Well-Known Member
Pure unadulterated nonsense from the Mother Jones side of the Earth. Or is that "under the Earth"? You should write for NORML. They pay better for lies.

FYI, your denial of the proven -- not alleged -- negative physical and mental health effects of marijuana sound like they're coming from one of the people I see on a typical day. I've got an opening next Tuesday at 1:00 p.m. Want me to hold it open for you?

You should write for Saudi Faux Snews. You sound and act just like Bill O. A mildly comical snooty know it all pretending to be a conservative.

Conservatives (genuine conservatives) have always been for limited constitutional government and spending money wisely but here you are arguing for bigger more intrusive government, more government control over our lives, less constitutional rights and continuing to waste 80 + billions dollars a year on a failed policy that even our "drug war" allies want to end.

They're tired of their people dying for our drug problem. Go ahead google "world leaders against the war on drugs". Nevermind I'll do it for ya.

https://www.google.com/search?q=world+leaders+end+the+war+on+drugs&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&channel=np&source=hp

TND gets real nasty and abusive when he's losing a debate doesn't he Gina? :laugh:
 
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TND gets real nasty and abusive when he's losing a debate doesn't he Gina? :laugh:
Losing? No one has even bothered to challenge me. Why would I get snooty over that?

I might, however, get snooty over fake patriots who wouldn't know a real fight if it jumped out of the weeds and bit them on the butt, though.
 
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Gina B

Active Member
Between snow days and health, I've been home and had time for this during the day, but will have to hold off during the day because it's work time again. (hey, one day out of five, woot! LOL) I'll check this out again later or tomorrow, but for now, have a moment for these thoughts:

TND: I appreciate the apology for "stepping on my toes," but assure you that I do not start conversations of this nature without expecting disagreements and for it to get somewhat personal. It's par the course and I am not easily offended. Your input is appreciated.

Poncho, I am very much with you on GMO's. Franken-foods are an insanity and have devastating impacts on the health of our nation. Monsanto - wow. Fracking - they've been doing this near a faultline out here and nobody wants to admit the connection between earthquakes, but they are so quick to deny any connections. I've watched the videos of people putting a lighter under their faucets and their drinking water catching on fire. Their children becoming ill, their land being corrupted when companies come in with the rights to the resources and inject those nasty chemicals back into the ground and pollute the land and resources on their property.

TND's viewpoints - while he doesn't agree, what I like about him is that he's TALKING. That's 90% improvement over the majority. What concerns me is people who do NOT talk. He's thinking, and that's where it all starts. Most people don't bother, and those are the ones who concern me. Some watched the video and won't even bother to think about it enough to consider what is being said. One person even threw out everything said and quit watching it based on one comment. Others wouldn't even watch. Those who don't even care enough to consider alternative viewpoints or explain why they don't agree with them - that is the true tragedy in all of this.

I need people who disagree so I can understand why and if they are unable to change my mind, then I can understand their viewpoint and that helps us change our approach. One MUST understand the opposition in order to accomplish anything, if we have any goals.

TND, if I was to go into detail, you might be quite surprised at my own personal reasons and viewpoints on many things. For a lot of this, I don't share many things simply because of some people still living that, out of common decency, don't need their stories told because the stories are theirs to tell, even if they were what helped shape my views. I've seen the drug addiction, lived with the consequences, and hated what I watched them go through and what it did to the people around them. I hate addiction on a deeply personal level. I am afraid of drugs, even prescriptions. (ask my doctor, they get upset on a regular basis when I refuse most anything, lol) I hate disrespect for authority and law enforcement with a passion, but that same passion extends to corrupt authority and law enforcement that abuses their power.

There are laws that aren't enforced and are old, but many that are newer and do get enforced in power plays under corrupt means in order to harass and intimidate people into submission. The flour laws, the margarine law, the bike laws, the multiple traffic laws...if you've ever sat through a law class or listened, if you have police officer friends or lawyer friends, they'll tell you how this works. They can dredge up these laws and use them to their advantage to help make other charges stick when they do not have the evidence for other charges. They can get a person innocent of another charge to plea down using the obscure charges because they CAN prove them guilty of such. Everyone is a criminal when it comes right down to it. I don't like that police officers are ALLOWED to lie. It's legal and a tactic they're allowed to use. I don't find that right, but when they do, they're "just doing their job."

So I'm glad you took part in this, because it helps me understand those that disagree with my viewpoints. I do think that some people are very afraid to let go of some of their concepts of law enforcement and trust their fellow citizens to pick up the slack. I'm not for anarchy, but for more citizens taking more responsibility for their own safety and well-being and the safety and well-being of their neighbors and communities. I've watched the differences in different areas around the country where I've lived. In one area, the dependence on law enforcement was sad, right down to people calling when a neighbor's kid knocked over the next door neighbor kid's snowman. Really? And they came. They also came and busted up a lemonade stand a kid set up, calling it a business. Really? I liked it much better when I lived where people regulated themselves, and saved calling the authorities from the next town over for when there was a true emergency. (there were no officers in that town, they had to call for help from a city next door, so everyone was armed, helped out each other, and saved law enforcement for the intended use. It worked so much better, much lower crime too!) THAT was a true community that worked together.

Anyhow, time to get ready. Thanks for letting me share my thoughts, and for your input. Feel free to step on my toes anytime. It's good for keeping the brain juices flowing.
 
Gina ...

I appreciate your viewpoint, and I do understand it. As I've said a few times on here, I know the criminal justice system well. I was in it once. I know how police officers work, I know their tactics aren't always the cleanest or most straight-forward, I know that some enforce stupid laws for stupid reasons. Your examples of lemonade stand and the snowman incident point up the need for this subject to be kept in the public's forefront.

I also know that police officers need to take people off the streets who are like me back when I needed to go to prison. Yes, there was nothing nefarious or underhanded about their investigation. I was guilty of white collar crime, I was out of control doing what I was doing, I needed to be incarcerated. And I was.

I have a great deal of respect for the men and women in law enforcement. Many are my friends, even among those who investigated me, arrested me, testified against me. They have a job to do, and they do it well. Though there are times when some engage in "stupid-law-for-stupid-reasons" enforcement, I would rather put up with the relatively few instances of that than have people like the kind I was running around hurting the public, whether in their bank accounts, or on their persons. All in all, the trade-off is fine with me.

Sure, I complain when a kid's lemonade stand is closed down because it violates zoning or business licensing laws, calling it stupid, insane, whatever.

When that same officer responds to a bank robbery/hostage situation and brings it to a successful close with everyone safe, I applaud his efforts. Which man is he? The one who closes lemonade stands, or the man who protects and serves so effectively? The truth is, he doesn't like having to do the stupid or the dangerous, but he willing does both. And I'm grateful for it.
 

Gina B

Active Member
:tear: Just watched "The Hunted and the Hated: An Inside Look at the NYPD's Stop-and-Frisk Policy."

It made me so sad. Stopping people for "looking suspicious" happens in our area too and...well, that's a story for another day.

Part way through this video, it goes to police officers talking. They talk about themselves, how they are just following orders, and how they want things to change and want to tell someone, but NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR THE TRUTH.

Nobody wants to hear the truth. Straight from the mouths of police officers who themselves are scared to not do as they're told, although they believe it is wrong.


 
Part way through this video, it goes to police officers talking. They talk about themselves, how they are just following orders, and how they want things to change and want to tell someone, but NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR THE TRUTH.
I'd suggest you go to your local police department and interview patrol officers and see how many of them have this attitude. The officers in that "documentary" were hand selected by the producers and don't represent the mainstream viewpoint of officers on the job. Any officer who says "I just do my job and don't ask questions" isn't doing his job in the first place, but at the same time, their lives are on the line and they are going to protect themselves and the public first.

Overall, this is one of the most biased, slanted "documentaries" ever done, filmed with the express purpose of proving a preconceived notion without caring whether that notion was factual or not.
 

Gina B

Active Member
Wow! That is the first time I've ever heard someone, in so many words, say that if x happens to people, so you take the people that x happens to and interview them, it is a biased and slanted viewpoint.

Either the police officers are lying about this situation or they are telling the truth. Given the circumstances, evidence, witnesses, and ongoing litigation in court surrounding the law, I find the word of the police officers in the video to be credible.

The police in our area...little old me isn't jumping into that hot mess just now to ask their opinion on it all! Some of them can't blink without a frog falling over and others run wild. That's a question for the big boys with the means and the resources to handle it all...that's who can do the official and public asking on that one!
 
Wow! That is the first time I've ever heard someone, in so many words, say that if x happens to people, so you take the people that x happens to and interview them, it is a biased and slanted viewpoint.
They didn't interview the people it happened to, they interviewed the cops who were willing to claim they are automatons. Not believable, sorry, Gina.

Either the police officers are lying about this situation or they are telling the truth.
They're lying.

Given the circumstances, evidence, witnesses, and ongoing litigation in court surrounding the law, I find the word of the police officers in the video to be credible.
I find them unreliable, lazy and a danger to the public they're sworn to protect and serve.

The police in our area...little old me isn't jumping into that hot mess just now to ask their opinion on it all! Some of them can't blink without a frog falling over and others run wild. That's a question for the big boys with the means and the resources to handle it all...that's who can do the official and public asking on that one!
I'm sorry. You're going to have to repost this in English. :laugh:
 

poncho

Well-Known Member
Meanwhile Back On The Streets

Police Now Taking Blood and Saliva from Drivers Across the Nation

WASHINGTON, DC — A federal program that began in Texas has now spread to an estimated 60 communities across the nation and shows no signs of stopping.

Police throughout the country are continuing to stop Americans at checkpoints to extract their blood and saliva under the direction federal government contractors, according to reports.

The agents responsible for the program claim that the extractions are being conducted to “reduce drunk driving” and that they are “voluntary.”

But citizens and civil liberties activists are deeply critical of the program, stating that drivers are tricked into submitting their fluids and that the program is fundamentally coercive.

http://filmingcops.com/checkpoints/


Store Owner Catches Cops Out of Control, Films a Year’s Worth of Abuse and Brutality

“Law enforcement officers now are part of the revenue gathering system. The ranks of cops are in competition with one another and intra-departmentally. It becomes a game. Policing isn’t about keeping streets safe, it’s about statistical success. The question for them is, ‘Who can put the most people in jail?’

Friends, those are the words of former Miami police officer, FBI field agent, and SWAT sniper Dale Carson. Straight from the horse’s mouth.

http://filmingcops.com/store-owner-...l-films-a-years-worth-of-abuse-and-brutality/

Americans Killed by Cops Now Outnumber Americans Killed in Iraq War

5,000 Americans since 9/11. Many of these killings have occurred during no-knock raids, which have risen by 4000% since the 1980s.

Iraqi insurgents, by comparison, have killed around 3,500 Americans in Iraq since 9/11 in Operation Iraqi “Freedom.”

It is not just Iraq. The number of Americans killed by police also now exceeds the number of Americans killed by Afghan insurgents.

Afghan insurgents have killed around 2,000 Americans in Afghanistan since 9/11 in Operation Enduring “Freedom.”

The police are getting paid with our money to go on shooting sprees and they are killing more of us than the terrorists from whom they “protect” us.

Do not be too surprised. This data is to be expected; it naturally fits with the fact that the State uses “counter-terrorism” as a means to oppress and initiate violence against the population. In fact, you are eight times more likely to be killed by a cop than by an actual “terrorist.”

http://filmingcops.com/americans-killed-by-police/


But their jobs are so hard.

“But their jobs are so hard!” This is something repeated ad nauseum by police apologists. (like TND) According to Forbes, construction workers have the 10th most dangerous job in the country. Sanitation workers are at number 7, with 25.2 deaths per 100,000 workers. Farmers are at number 4, with 38.5 deaths per 100,000 workers, and fishing workers have the most dangerous job in America, with 200 deaths per 100,000 workers (see full list here).

While police certainly like to fear-monger and wallow in self-pity about a completely fictitious “War on Cops,” and an alleged rise in police deaths, the reality is that police officers don’t even make the top 10 list of America’s most dangerous jobs (see more on the falsity of increasing police deaths in Paula’s article here). Not only are their jobs less dangerous than that of construction workers, loggers, sales people who drive, and machinery installers, their death rates could arguably be drastically reduced if only they would take ingenious new-fangled precautions such as wearing seatbelts. In recent years, car crashes killed more police officers than violence, and studies indicated up to 40 percent of officers killed in car accidents were not wearing seatbelts (Paula’s article). While they are busy being reckless, killing themselves and pinning it on the public, the public continues to cheer them on in their hard work and exemplary service.

http://www.copblock.org/2485/but-their-jobs-are-so-hard/

Cop Caught on Video Punching and Kicking a Child

The beatings and torture of the girl included: handcuffing her and slamming her head into walls; shackling her in a dark room for hours and starving her; burning her digestive system; whipping her with ropes; strangling her until she blacked out.

The video below was taken on the day that Officer Yachik punched and kicked the girl for eating carrots. Officer Yachik’s fiance stated that both herself and the girl were beaten for several years.

When Officer Yachik’s fiance sent footage of the abuse to the chief of police (Yachik’s boss), she received no response back from the chief. But Yachik called her soon thereafter and said ”Nice try…trying to get me fired…it’s not going to work,” according to the affidavit.

The fiance continued sending the footage to local media outlets. Yachik was eventually taken into custody by other cops — he was released after paying $1,500 bail.

http://filmingcops.com/cop-caught-on-video-punching-and-kicking-a-child/

This is just a tiny sampling of the hundreds if not thousands of these "isolated incidences" that happen every year.
 
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Gina B

Active Member
Sorry Poncho, but your post sounds like it wouldn't be very nice if it were true, therefore it is not true.

Now take your Soma and think a little harder before you post things that don't contain both unicorns AND glitter, sir.
 
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