1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Jesus said he was a demon. Are you going to say he was not? What if you don't know enough to interpret it as you would like?
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Judas partook of the original Lord's supper.
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
WHAT does the Greek word διάβολος, mean?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Anything you need for it to mean, apparently. Firstly it means Devil.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Original meaning
διάβολ-ος, ον,
I slanderous, backbiting, γραῦς Men. 878, cf. Phld. Lib. p.24O.: Sup. -ώτατος Ar. Eq. 45; διάβολόν τι, aliquid invidiae, And. 2.24; τὸ δ. Plu. 2.61d.
II Subst., slanderer, Pi. Fr. 297, Arist. Top. 126a31, Ath. 11.508d; enemy, LXX Ezr_7:4, LXX Ezr_8:1 : hence, = Sâtân, ib. 1Ch_21:1; the Devil, Mat_4:1, etc.
III Adv. -λως injuriously, invidiously, Th. 6.15; χρῆσθαί τινι Procop. Arc. 2.
Liddell & Scott Greek Lexicon
διάβολος, διάβολον (διαβάλλω which see), prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely, (Aristophanes, Andocides (), Plutarch, others): 1Ti_3:11; 2Ti_3:3; Tit_2:3; as a substantive, ὁ διάβολος, a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer, (see κατηγορέω, at the end) (Xenophon, Ages. 11, 5; (Aristotle, others)): the Sept. Est_7:4; Est_8:1. In the Bible and in ecclesiastical writings ὁ διάβολος (also διάβολος without the article; cf. Winers Grammar, 124 (118); Buttmann, 89 (78)) is applied κατ' ἐξοχήν to the one called in Hebrew äÇùÈÌÒèÈï, ὁ σατανᾶς (which see), viz., Satan, the prince of demons, the author of evil, persecuting good men (Job_1:1-22; Zec_3:1 ff, cf. Rev_12:10), estranging mankind from God and enticing them to sin, and afflicting them with diseases by means of demons who take possession of their bodies at his bidding; the malignant enemy of God and the Messiah: Mat_4:1; Mat_4:5,(); ; Luk_4:2,( R L, ); ; Joh_13:2; Act_10:38; Eph_4:27; Eph_6:11; 1Ti_3:6; 2Ti_2:26; Heb_2:14; Jas_4:7; 1Pe_5:8; Jud_1:9; Rev_2:10; Rev_12:9; Rev_12:12; Rev_20:2; Rev_20:10; (Wis_2:24; (cf. Psa_108:6 (); 1Ch_21:1)). Men who resemble the devil in mind and will are said εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ διαβόλου to be of the devil, properly, to derive their origin from the devil, tropically, to depend upon the devil in thought and action, to be prompted and governed by him: Joh_8:44; 1Jn_3:8; the same are called τέκνα τοῦ διαβόλου, children of the devil, 1Jn_3:10; υἱοί τοῦ διαβόλου, sons of the devil, Act_13:10, cf. Mat_13:38; Joh_8:38; 1Jn_3:10. The name διάβολος is figuratively applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him: Joh_6:70, cf. Mat_16:23; Mar_8:33. (Cf. σαταν at the end.)
J H Thayer, Greek Lexicon
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
So it describes the Devil and also calls him the devil. BTW, if Christ died for all, why are not all saved?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
have you ever read John 3:18, 36; Mark 16:16, etc?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Of course. What's your point? Why isn't everyone saved in cluding Judas if Christ died for all?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
what do these verses, and many others say, why a person will be condemned?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Spell it out. Let's see exactly how you base salvation on works.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
read the Bible verses I have given, only 3, and see what they say. never mind about what I say or think!
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Let's hear it from you. Jesus said, "all that the father gave to him will come to him". This alone rules out your atonement theory.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
great to cherry-pick Bible verses! this is a Reformed tradition.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Stop making excuses, let's hear your interpretation. Maybe we can fix it.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
You are trying to avoid and hide.
You explain how those verses negated the full atonement of the cross, since it is you who is making the claim. You have been called out, now show how the atonement is limited in your position..because you are teaching a twisted limited atonement whether you recognize it or not.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
More excuses? Let's see what you have.but you won't agree, as you have a very closed mind!
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Speaking for myself,
I agree that the word "demon" ( fallen angel ) is not used to describe Judas;
but Jesus Himself declared that he was a "devil", and He doesn't do that for those that His Father has given to Him to save per John 17:2.
In that chapter, He prays to the Father and declares that none of the ones given to Him were lost except the "son of perdition",
so that the Scriptures would be fulfilled. <--- Did you miss that? One of the Lord's inner circle was lost for a purpose. To fulfill prophecy.
The Lord also prays to the Father and says that He ( Jesus ) is in them ( not Judas, as I clearly see that he was lost and isn't the subject of John 17:13-26 ), and the Father is in Christ...and that His Father has loved them ( the ones He is praying for ) as His Father has loved His Son.
Question:
Do you believe that the Lord would allow someone He loves to be used to fulfill prophecy, and then refer to them as the "son of damnation"?
I don't.
Respectfully, I don't think that you're understanding something...
Satan did not "suggest" that Judas betray the Lord Jesus, Satan sponsored it through Judas.
Just as the Lord works through His children ( Philippians 2:13, 1 Corinthians 12:6, 1 Corinthians 15:10, ), Satan works through his:
" Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.
27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly." ( John 13:27 ).
" Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve." ( Luke 22:3 ).
You do understand what possession is, and what that does to someone, don't you?
It makes them the host of a demon, who does things through that person.
Please see Mark 5:1-20, for example.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
1) " He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ( John 3:18 ).
"Because" or "by cause", they have not believed.
"Because" means "since" or "due to the fact that".
Also notice that the the ones believing are not ( presence tense ) condemned, while those who do not believe are condemned already ( past tense ), which is why they don't believe.
Did you miss that part of the verse...the part where it says that they are already condemned?
2) " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." ( John 3:36 ).
In the above, I see why they believe, because ( due to the fact that ) they already have ( present tense ) everlasting life, not "will have".
I also see why they do not believe...because ( due to the fact that ) they shall not see life and the wrath of God abides on them.
Did you miss that, my friend?
It's declarative, contrasting the ones that believe from the ones that do not;
It's not imperative.
3) " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." ( Mark 16:16 ).
To me, this is stating a fact, not a "what if".
It isn't an invitation, SBG, it's the Lord Jesus saying who is saved and who is not, by Him telling us who shall be ( state of being ) saved and who shall be ( state of being ) damned...
Those that believe, versus those that do not.
In other words, like the other two above, it's declarative, not imperative.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
@SavedByGrace :
Here are several for you, and please tell me what they say, if you're so inclined:
" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).
" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).
" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" ( John 10:26-27 ). <--- There's that word again, "because", or "due to the fact that".
I've read the ones you gave and told you how I see them.
Please read the ones given and see what they say, and never mind what I say or think.
Here are several for you, and please tell me what they say, if you're so inclined:
" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).
" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).
" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" ( John 10:26-27 ). <--- There's that word again, "because", or "due to the fact that".
I agree.
I've read the ones you gave and told you how I see them.
Please read the ones given and see what they say, and never mind what I say or think.
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37818
Well-Known Member
The text of Luke 22:19-21 is pretty straight forward. Jesus addresses "them." And Judas is one of them. So Judas is explicitly included in the "for you." Unrelated rants do not change what is explicitly taught by the text.