Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WPutnam:
That is not true at all, and the Church never claims that it can condemn anyone to hell! It can exclude someone from the sacraments and fellowship from the Church, but always with the hope and prayers that that individual will repent and return.
Excluding someone from sacraments required for salvation is not considered condemning them to hell?</font>[/QUOTE]Nope, not at all! While it is true that the Sacraments are important to salvation, strictly speaking, one who was baptized but apostacizes from the faith, is not an absolute declaration that the individual is condemned to hell. Again, no one can know but God.
Even if it were not, we too, have not said that it was impossible for the pope to repent and turn back to God. What we are saying, IF he dies, believing what the church teaches, he will go to hell.
And of course, I would strongly disagree with you on that! You are then making a statement of determining that the beliefs of the church are paramount to damnation!
That, madam, would require a lot of discussion between you and I, so make your case and let's see...
Otherwise, you are saying there is no way of knowing if your doctrine is or is not correct.
I believe in Jesus Christ. That means that I believe in the very Church he established claiming that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." And since it is the only church that can trace her history and origins back to Christ Himself, I am positive as can be that my doctrine is correct, and unchanging from the times of Pentecost!
If we can NOT know what doctrine is the true doctrine, then we can NOT know how someone will get to heaven. If we DO know what doctrine is correct, then we can KNOW and judge based upon those circumstances.
The problem is, I am as convinced as can be that the doctrines I follow is absolutely correct and without error! Else Christ lied, and indeed, His church has stood in error for the first 1500 years before the dawn of Protestantism!
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WPutnam:
Only God knows the heart, and thus only God can judge. Christ gave much authority to His church, but the power to know the hearts of men and thus judge their salvation is not one of those "charismas."
So only God can know if a person can get to hell by believing in Mohammad? Buddah? Are all these options to receive eternal life?</font>[/QUOTE]Mohammad and Buddah actually have nothing to do with it, for even a pagan, "sublimely ignorant" of the gospel of Christ but essentially follows the Ten Commandments (which is another way of stating what we all know in the
natural law, is not outside of the boundries of being saved, as determined by the infinite mercy and justice of Almighty God!
Only God can know what a man truly believes, but we can all know what one MUST believe to gain eternal life.
We know what God wants us to do that we are indeed saved, but we do not know the intentions of what and how He may condemn/save the soul that comes before Him in judgment.
It is obvious that Christianity, per the gospel of Christ is the "greased ways" that we may be saved, but if the ignorant pagan, in the jungle who has never been exposed to a missionary, just may achieve the salvation we all seek, even while the odds may be low for that to happen. That makes it obvious why it is important what Christ says in Matthew 28:19 to "Make disciples of all nations" as an all important imperative.
We see what the pope teaches. Are you saying that the pope may ultimately believe differently than what the church teaches, even though he is supposed to be the Vicar of Christ? We can NEVER know if the pope truly believe what he professes?
The question is a false dichotomy, like asking me "when was the last time I beat my momma"?
Make your question valid, you must demonstrate an occasion of a pope teaching and believing other then what is Catholic beliefs, doctrine and dogma.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WPutnam:
The most the Church can do is point out the error of their doctrine!
In pointing it out, is it necessary to state that anyone believing it is "anathema" even though you can't know the heart of a person who believes those doctrines?</font>[/QUOTE]No, as the Church pleads for correction and retraction of a false doctrine! It is only when the error is a serious detraction and a scandal, usually for a long period of time, before the individual is declared "anathema."
A person may personally believe in an error, if that person is far removed from the author of the error. That is to say, if I were raised up in a family of Mormons, who has taught me Mormanism, and I believe it, I am not under the decree of anathema, whereas the founder of the error may be.
And even is the case of those who author the error, and under an anathema, no one can know for sure of the heart of the individual who may believe in this error, even when the person turns his back from the true faith to embrace it!
I may fear for his soul; I may "think" he is bound for hell, and such, but I cannot declare definitively that the individual is in hell at death.
Can I declare that Adolph Hitler is in hell? No, I cannot, as I have to contemplate a last second remorse and asking for forgiveness on his part before he actually died!
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WPutnam:
Again, all they can do is judge the error of a doctrine held, not the actual condition of the soul as it may be judged by God.
So how can they say there is no salvation apart from the catholic church if they can never really KNOW for sure?</font>[/QUOTE]Because for those souls, even those way outside of the Catholic Church in actual practice, may be saved as "imperfect members of the church" nevertheless. Also, such a charge was made against those who perpetuated a cleavage from the Catholic Church as if one is completely divorced from her, as a warning to the individual that the individual may repent!
But deep down, if you still believe in Christ, you are still an "imperfect member of the Church," and thus just may be saved at the last breath!
The following link explains this better then I do:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WPutnam:
We often hear, "Judge not, least you be judged."
It's actually "lest" you be judged. Of course the context has nothing to do with judging a man's salvation. In context, these verses show us that we must first recognize our own faults before correcting another. If we DO judge, we must be prepared to be judged in the same manner. It doesn't say we are NEVER to judge a christian brother or sister based upon their doctrines.</font>[/QUOTE]Of course, I was paraphrasing from memory, Lorelei.
Correcting another has nothing to do with declaring a condemning of another, but such declarations often come close to doing this! Furthermore, not to judge is a good idea since only God can judge, do you agree?
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not
thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn
away his wrath from him.
Proverbs 24:17-18