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Judge rules that the U.S. Pledge of Alligiance is Unconsitutional

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buckster75

Member
So you may also find this false:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
 
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Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by C4K:
But how can we deny them their religious liberty without rescinding the First Amendment?
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We cannot, and we do not. Religious liberty that is guaranteed in Amendment I applies to all of every faith, not just Christians.
This debate goes a lot deeper than whether we should get upset about "under God" being removed from the pledge.
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Yes, taht's true. FOr the purpose of this thread and this thread alone, I was attempting to address strictly the issue of the "under God" decision and its legality of appearance in the pledge. I was not attempting to address the issue of spirituality as a whole, though a few of my comments appear to bave been taken by some to construe that I was referring to such.
 
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buckster75

Member
these were men of faith in the same God of the Bible. They were stirred by their beliefs and stirred others of the same. willing to die for country. A nation under God. And I for one am ready to fight to keep that acknowledment in the pledge.
 
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Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by buckster75:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
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That's the Declaration of Independence. It's not a document of binding law. It's not part of the Constitution. The purpose of the D of I was that the Crown of England violated our rights when they engaged in taxation without representation.
... these were men of faith in the same God of the Bible.
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The prevalence of religion notwithstanding, these men were men of faith in individual freedom and civil liberty.

There was at that time no country, no flag, and no pledge to any flag.

The pledge was originally written by Francis Bellamy, in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist, and had lectured and preached on the virtues of socialism and the evils of capitalism. In his Pledge, he was expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, "Looking Backward" (1888) and "Equality" (1897).

The pledge originally read "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands- one nation indivisible-with liberty and justice for all." He considered putting the words "fraternity" and "equality" in the Pledge but decided they were too radical and controversial for public schools. The original Pledge was recited while giving a stiff, uplifted right hand salute, a custom that was criticized, discontinued, and ultimately abandoned during WWII.

In 1923, the "National Flag Conference replaced "my flag" with "the Flag of the United States" (fearing that the children of immigrants might confuse "my flag" for the flag of their homeland). In 1924, "of America" were added. The words "under God" were not added until 1954, over 60 years after the pledge was first written, and done so at the urging of the Knights
of Columbus, a Roman Catholic fraternity. SCOTUS ruled a few years later that recitation of the pledge could not be made mandatory in public schools.

[ September 16, 2005, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
 
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buckster75

Member
I think the point is that we recognize what these men believed. they would probably never have invisioned a country turning from God and that is why it was lesft out of the constitution.

IN CONGRESS IN PHILADELPHIA

October 21, 1774

WE, the delegates appointed by the good people of these colonies to meet at Philadelphia in September last, for the purposes mentioned by our respective constituents, have, in pursuance of the trust reposed in us, assembled, and taken into our most serious consideration, the important matters recommended to the Congress. Our resolutions thereupon will be herewith communicated to you. But as the situation of public affairs grows daily more and more alarming; and as it may be more satisfactory to you to be informed by us in a collective body, than in any other manner, of those sentiments that have been approved, upon a full and free discussion, by the representatives of so great a part of America, we esteem ourselves obliged to add this address to these resolutions.

In every case of opposition by a people to their rulers, or of one state to another, duty to Almighty God, the creator of all, requires that a true and impartial judgment be formed of the measures leading to such opposition, and of the causes by which it has been provoked or can in any degree be justified, that, neither affection on one hand, nor resentment on the other, being permitted to give a wrong bias to reason, it may be enabled to take a dispassionate view of all circumstances, and to settle the public conduct on the solid foundations of wisdom and justice.

From counsels thus tempered arise the surest hopes of the divine favor, the firmest encouragement of the parties engaged, and the strongest recommendation of their cause to the rest of mankind.


Still sounding like they would like the pledge as is.
 
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Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by buckster75:
And?
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And, you're attempting to channel the founding fathers for support of the pledge as is, when the founding fathers had no interest in the pledge at all.
 
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Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by buckster75:
the non believer wins every battle beacause the christian is afraid to stand up.
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The issue of the pledge is not such an issue.

If the phrase "under God" in the pledge were truly a stement of faith endorsement, then it should be stricken without hesitation. But the fact is that it is not a statement of faith endorsement, it is a statement of patriotism.
Originally posted by buckster75:
I don't think they would support taking it out as you seem to.
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I support the pledge as it stands, btw. I support it because it is not an endorsement of faith, but a statement of patriotism.

But the founding fathers neither cared about a pledge, not did they support such a pledge. In fact, the history of Amendment I implies that the framers would not support any pledge if it were intended as a statement of faith endorsement.
"bless the rulers and people of this and forget not those who are under any affliction or oppression."
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Which has what to do with the pledge and/or its legality? Nothing.
 
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buckster75

Member
it is from a pray of George Washington and again you will say it has nothing to do with this issue. But that is where we do disagree.
As we do on the pledge. I do not see the founders separating patriotism and faith. you do.
 
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Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by buckster75:
it is from a pray of George Washington and again you will say it has nothing to do with this issue.
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Just curious, where is this prayer from? I'd like to see the whole thing. Not to debate, just to peruse. Writings such as these are quite inspiring personally.
I do not see the founders separating patriotism and faith. you do.
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They did not separate patriotism and faith. They did not reqire faith as a matter of patriotism, though. They did, however, separate patriotism and endorsement of faith, as evidenced in the Constitution's Amendment I.
 
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Johnv

New Member
Nevermind, buckster, I found the prayer in question, It's quite beautiful, imo.

You realize, though, that this is not something written by George Washington? It was a prayer book that was likely given to him by someone. We don't know if Washington was Christian or not (I like to believe he was, but unfortunately, although he was active in an eposcopal church in his youth, he never made any statement of faith in his lifetime).

Again, this really doesn't have anything to do with the pledge.
 
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kubel

New Member
This may be controversial, but I agree- they should remove "under god" from it.

Look at the wickedness that our nation supports (capital punishment, sacrificing unborn babies, legalizing homosexual and immoral behavior, etc...), and you tell me if God wants his name slapped on it. This nation is under satan, and has been that way for several years.

Ephesians 6:12 (KJV1611) For wee wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darknes of this world, against spirituall wickednes in high places.
 
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buckster75

Member
I guess this goes next:

O thus be it ever when free-men shall stand
Between their lov'd home and the war's desolation;
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust!”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
 
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