just How Do the DoG Provide "sinner an excuse?"

[Greektim]

Calvinists say the unelect will be justly condemned for their sins. If Calvinism is true this is incredibly false. If a person is born a sinner and only has the ability to sin, it is wicked and unjust to punish them for doing the only thing they are able to do.

It is unjust to punish people for their sin caused by their sinful nature??? The only way around that terrible truth is that people did not exist or not born in the race of Adam... a terrible thought to be sure.

Is it just to execute a man born blind because he cannot see? Is it just to execute a person born without legs because he cannot walk?

I would say your illustration is lacking b/c these infirmities are effects of sin but not the sin itself. This does not correlate to make an adequate illustration.

A better way to say it is, is it just for a blind man to not be able to see? Is it just for a lame man to not be able to walk. Notice first that I'm not asking if it just at all for a person to be blind or lame. I am asking if it would just for a blind man to see. Logically, if he could see, he wouldn't be blind. So it is just for a blind man not to see because he is blind. Similarly, it is just for a lame person to not walk, b/c if the person could walk, he would not be lame.

Therefore, if a person is born a sinner, he is just in being punished as a sinner. What you want is for a person to be born a sinner and be treated as if he was not what he was born as - a sinner.

But this is exactly what Calvinism teaches, that God punishes a man for eternity for his inability.
That is not justice, it is monstrous and cruel.

That is not exactly accurate. Man is punished for sin. His inability is to overcome his sin and receive forgiveness.

I am amazed anyone with half a brain can believe this false doctrine. That is why many Calvinists here have said you must reject man's sense of justice. Even Calvinists know there is something seriously wrong with their doctrine.

I this kind of statement allowed on the board? You just said I don't have half a brain.

Honestly, I do not believe they preach Calvinism to convince others, I think they are trying to convince themselves!

That's an intriguing thought. I don't preach calvinism at all. I preach the Word. I believe the word teaches the DoG. Therefore I preach that as well. But I do it based on my observation of Scripture, not because I have a complex or desire for everyone to believe what I believe.

 

[matt wade]

What would you have God do??? Override their sinful inclination of perpetual unbelief? Oh wait... that's what he does!!!! So for God to be "mericful", he must be merciful to everyone??? You sure you have the correct understanding and definition of mercy???

I would have God extend the gift of salvation to all people. The God of the Bible is merciful to everyone. He allows all people to freely accept His gift of salvation. That's a merciful God!

The god of calvinism causes people to be unable to believe in him. That's an unmerciful god. The god of calvinism is like a computer programmer who creates a program that is unable to print anything but "Hello World!" and then deletes the program, blaming the program itself for being incapable of saying "I love you programmer." The god of calvinism programs people to unbelief and then sends them to hell for not believing. That's unmerciful.

 

[matt wade]

Honestly, cannot believe in a theology that would basically deny effects of the fall, allows man to exercise free will same as Gods, and would see us as being basically 'good" in that we can still freely chose Christ or not!

That's nice. That's not what I believe at all. I haven't heard anyone on this board say that. You are back again trying to say that people say and believe things they don't. You've been called out on another thread and asked to provide names of people that believe things you claim are believed by people here. You were unable to do it then and you still can't do it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinists say the unelect will be justly condemned for their sins. If Calvinism is true this is incredibly false. If a person is born a sinner and only has the ability to sin, it is wicked and unjust to punish them for doing the only thing they are able to do.

Is it just to execute a man born blind because he cannot see? Is it just to execute a person born without legs because he cannot walk?

But this is exactly what Calvinism teaches, that God punishes a man for eternity for his inability.

That is not justice, it is monstrous and cruel.

I am amazed anyone with half a brain can believe this false doctrine. That is why many Calvinists here have said you must reject man's sense of justice. Even Calvinists know there is something seriously wrong with their doctrine.

Honestly, I do not believe they preach Calvinism to convince others, I think they are trying to convince themselves!

You are posting openly against the God of the bible.....

If a person is born a sinner and only has the ability to sin, it is wicked and unjust to punish them for doing the only thing they are able to do.

people are born sinners,they do sin everyday,

So you say it is ....wicked and unjust to punish sinners......

This is at the core of your constant objections to the truth of God...like the person Paul answers in Romans 9....you believe God is wicked and unjust to punish sinners.....no wonder you resist the truth.

 

[Greektim]

I would have God extend the gift of salvation to all people. The God of the Bible is merciful to everyone. He allows all people to freely accept His gift of salvation. That's a merciful God!

IN a sense, the gospel has been extended to all. The problem is not the gospel extension. The problem is man's incessant proclivity to avoid God and never believe. The problem is your concept of "all people to freely accept His gift of salvation" b/c they are not free to accept. They are slaves to sin. They do not seek God. God is merciful. He was ready to be sought but no one asked for him. He was ready to be found but no one looked for him (Isa. 65:1ff.)

The god of calvinism causes people to be unable to believe in him. That's an unmerciful god. The god of calvinism is like a computer programmer who creates a program that is unable to print anything but "Hello World!" and then deletes the program, blaming the program itself for being incapable of saying "I love you programmer." The god of calvinism programs people to unbelief and then sends them to hell for not believing. That's unmerciful.

The GOD of calvinism first of all. That is a board offense.

Second the DoG says that man cannot believe b/c of his sin. This strawman is probably much of the reason you have a problem with the system. You clearly do not understand it.

Not to mention that God as the creator is the potter who can do to the clay what he pleases. If he makes some for honor and some for dishonor, WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION HIM!!! WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION HIS NATURE OF GRACE AND MERCY!!!!!!! That's Paul's argument for Rom. 9 anyways.

 

[Winman]

Honestly, cannot believe in a theology that would basically deny effects of the fall, allows man to exercise free will same as Gods, and would see us as being basically 'good" in that we can still freely chose Christ or not!

JF, First, you need to learn how to use the quote function. Just click QUOTE and when the reply box pops up, simply type your response below it.

Second, you contradict yourself. You say all are born sinners in Adam, then you say men CHOOSE to sin. This is a direct contradiction, you redefine the word choose. In your system, the unelect do not have the ability to choose, they can only sin. They are absolutely UNABLE to choose God and believe.

If you are unable to choose, then you have no choice.

 

[matt wade]

Not to mention that God as the creator is the potter who can do to the clay what he pleases. If he makes some for honor and some for dishonor, WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION HIM!!! WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION HIS NATURE OF GRACE AND MERCY!!!!!!! That's Paul's argument for Rom. 9 anyways.

I was wondering when we would get here. A red faced, puffing, out of breath calvinist yelling at me "WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION HIM!!!".

[snipped]

 

[JesusFan]

I was wondering when we would get here. A red faced, puffing, out of breath calvinist yelling at me "WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION HIM!!!".

Who am I to question the god of calvinism? I'm a child of the King.

Who also happens to be same God of Calvinism!

 

[jbh28]

The mercy received by those that reject God is the chance to have accepted Him. The unmerciful god of calvinism gives many no chance at all.

they have a chance to be saved, though the chance in not deserved. all they have to do is believe. They choose not to because they would rather stay in their sin.

I will not.

So you willingly break the rules and call others that disagree with you unsaved? You cool with that?

 

[jbh28]

Calvinists say the unelect will be justly condemned for their sins. If Calvinism is true this is incredibly false. If a person is born a sinner and only has the ability to sin, it is wicked and unjust to punish them for doing the only thing they are able to do.

no it's not. And not just Calvinist believe in original sin. you are one of the few that doesn't. What you are espousing is pelagianism.

 

[matt wade]

they have a chance to be saved, though the chance in not deserved. all they have to do is believe. They choose not to because they would rather stay in their sin.

Let's play this game out and see what twisting of words we get today.

By the above, are you telling me that all people are able to choose to believe?

So you willingly break the rules and call others that disagree with you unsaved? You cool with that?

Please show me the rule I am breaking. I have called no one unsaved. I simply don't believe that the god of calvinism is the God of the Bible.

 

[InTheLight]

they have a chance to be saved, though the chance in not deserved. all they have to do is believe. They choose not to because they would rather stay in their sin.

Apparently you have a different flavor of Calvinism than most others on this board. You say "all they have to do is believe." Most Calvinist on this board assert that humans don't have the ability to believe without God regenerating them. Would you clarify your position?

1. Does God need to regenerate people first, thus enabling them to believe, or not?

 

[jbh28]

JF, First, you need to learn how to use the quote function. Just click QUOTE and when the reply box pops up, simply type your response below it.

:thumbs:

Second, you contradict yourself. You say all are born sinners in Adam, then you say men CHOOSE to sin. This is a direct contradiction, you redefine the word choose.

No contradiction, we choose to sin.

In your system, the unelect do not have the ability to choose, they can only sin. They are absolutely UNABLE to choose God and believe.

right, because of their sinful nature, they will always choose against God.

If you are unable to choose, then you have no choice.

There are two options, so there is a choice. The inability comes from the sinful nature of the person who would rather choose their sin over coming to Christ.

 

[jbh28]

Apparently you have a different flavor of Calvinism than most others on this board. You say "all they have to do is believe." Most Calvinist on this board assert that humans don't have the ability to believe without God regenerating them. Would you clarify your position?

I would agree to a point. What I was saying is that all one has to do is believe to be saved. There will be no one that wants to believe, but can't believe.

1. Does God need to regenerate people first, thus enabling them to believe, or not?

No one believes that is not regenerate.

 

[Winman]

I was wondering when we would get here. A red faced, puffing, out of breath calvinist yelling at me "WHO ARE YOU TO QUESTION HIM!!!".

Who am I to question the god of calvinism? I'm a child of the King.

The potter in Romans 9 is misinterpreted and misused by Calvinists. Paul was referencing Isa 29:16 and Jer 18:1-10. The Jews Paul was addressing knew these passages. They were in no way saying God chose to have mercy on some, and show wrath to others unconditionally.

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Paul was not speaking of Unconditional Election in Romans 9. God's mercy or wrath is conditional upon obedience or disobedience.

So, Calvinists abuse this reference to the potter in the OT to make it say the exact opposite of what it truly means.

 

[jbh28]

Let's play this game out and see what twisting of words we get today.

By the above, are you telling me that all people are able to choose to believe?

Their inability is from their sinfulness. They choose to not believe. No one is forcing them to not believe.

Please show me the rule I am breaking. I have called no one unsaved. I simply don't believe that the god of calvinism is the God of the Bible.

Unless you believe that one can worship a false god and still be saved, then you are calling them unsaved.
I believe the mod told me it was rule 3 or 4 when I did it to someone else. I was corrected on it and have refrained from it since. I didn't think about what it is really saying until the mod pointed it out to me. When you say one is worshiping a false god, you are basically calling them unsaved.

Really, there is no reason to do this at all. It's just a personal attack. I think you can biblically defend your position without having to have personal attacks.

 

[matt wade]

Their inability is from their sinfulness. They choose to not believe. No one is forcing them to not believe.

But isn't it true that according to calvinism, all people start off unable to believe because of their sinfulness? The only people that are able to believe are able to do so because the god of calvinism allows them to do so?

Unless you believe that one can worship a false god and still be saved, then you are calling them unsaved.
I believe the mod told me it was rule 3 or 4 when I did it to someone else. I was corrected on it and have refrained from it since. I didn't think about what it is really saying until the mod pointed it out to me. When you say one is worshiping a false god, you are basically calling them unsaved.

Really, there is no reason to do this at all. It's just a personal attack. I think you can biblically defend your position without having to have personal attacks.

I'm not attacking anyone personally, [snipped]

 

[jbh28]

But isn't it true that according to calvinism, all people start off unable to believe because of their sinfulness? The only people that are able to believe are able to do so because the god of calvinism allows them to do so?




I'm not attacking anyone personally, unless you consider me attacking the god of calvinism.

I'm not going to discuss anything as long as you continue the personal attacks. Leave them out and I'll answer your question.

 

[InTheLight]

1. Does God need to regenerate people first, thus enabling them to believe, or not?

No one believes that is not regenerate.

OK, let's try it again.

1. Does God need to regenerate people first, thus enabling them to believe, or not?

 

[matt wade]

I'm not going to discuss anything as long as you continue the personal attacks. Leave them out and I'll answer your question.

Of course you aren't, because your game of twisting words was about to be exposed.