Just how inspired is the Bible?

[Plain Old Bill]

This is certainly not a KJVO thread. Let us at least include the NASB,NKJV,ESV,NIV,RSV,and other scholarly translations.There are very minor differences between them as far as substance goes.If you prefer the KJV that is fine with everybody here it is also a valid translation.
So rjprince you are right if someone has a KJVO bone to pick or song to sing they can do it on the Bible versions forum.I don't think anybody here is trying to do that.

 

[Bro. David]

Thanks again Bill!
I somehow feel like I owe the readers and participants of this thread an
apology, but I don’t. Like I said earlier, I came to learn and to share. I never
lashed-out at anyone, nor am I guilty of ‘hijacking’ this thread. I NEVER once
promoted one Version above another! All I am guilty of is holding up my firm
belief that God did indeed ‘preserve’ His Word and that we have It today.
Guilty? NO! Convicted? YES! I tried to encourage everyone here to embrace
their Bible, no matter what version they use! To embrace It, study It, share It,
did I not?
We were asked not to turn this thread into an ‘only’ debate, which I was very
mindful not to do. I never once even mentioned the KJB.
The Bible you use, no matter what version, is a choice only you can make. We
make that choice Prayerfully and with Convictions from God. Yes, I have been
convicted by the Lord to use a particular Version, as I’m sure all of you have
been. We, those of us covered by the Blood of Christ, are God’s children. If He
feels we are using a Version different than the One He would like for us to use -
THEN HE WILL CONVICT US ACCORDINGLY! God’s children answer directly to
Him, not to me, and not to any other man.
Check out the facts, then let’s get back to the point; “Just how inspired is your
Bible?”.
In my second posting;
“I stop short of saying that Translations can be inspired, but I ask; "Could not,
nay rather, did not God 'intervene' to bring His Word over to our common
language?" It is certain He did, because there are too many promises in
Scripture where God said He WOULD 'preserve' His Word!!!”
In my fourth posting:
"Just how inspired is your Bible?" The One you hold in your hand, the One you
study, the one you read from, the One you witness from - not the autographs,
not the ancient copies, not what some other man says about It - but again "Just
how inspired is YOUR Bible?". My statement of faith concerning my Bible; "I
hold in my hand the very Word of God!" What is YOUR statement of faith about
YOUR Bible?

Again, I never mentioned the KJV or any other version by name!

Now I quote from rj;
“That ought to rattle a few cages, but the only other option is KJVO or NASBO,
et al."
You, rj, were the first one to mention King James Version Onlyism, not me!”
Again, I never even mentioned the King James Bible at ALL! Ed even asked me;
“Please tell me which Bible, which translation, which version, which edition. I
probably have one like it, if you will describe it. Thank you.”
So to answer the question about which Bible I use, I use God’s Word.
As a matter of fact I never mentioned one version above the other on this thread
- again I never even mentioned the KJB - I only quoted from it! You, sir, are the
one who started the KJVO argument not me! Now you want to throw a hissy-fit
about a topic YOU started! How absurd!

rj this thread was started on the premise, “Just how inspired is your Bible?”. This is a
thread for Bible Believers to share there heart felt thoughts about ‘their’ Bible. It is about
sharing, not bullying, not about cage rattling, hitting first, or testing the thickness of
another members skin! You started the KJVOnlyism, you mentioned the KJB first, maybe
YOU need to go to one of the KJVOnly threads since that subject seems to be the only
one you can dwell on!

rj, I came here to make friends, not enemies. If for some reason you and I can’t be friends
it will only be because you will not allow it. I will Pray for you, and I certainly hope you
will Pray for me!

Bill, Helen, Humblesmith, and anyone else who would like to speak about the Love we
have for God’s Word - let’s talk about our Bibles. No more getting side-tracked. Let’s talk
about how God Himself totally ‘inspired’ our heart to Trust in the Living Word Jesus and
the Living written Word, our Bibles. Hey, ‘TOTALLY’, that’s where I came in isn’t it?
Waiting to talk about the Love of God and the Love for His Word.
Love in Christ Bro. David Heb. 7:25

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Bro. David:
Thank you Bill, couldn't have said it better myself.
Onlyism, onlyism, fact is there is ONLY ONE Word of God! Where is It, who's got It? If only the autographs were inspired, then the answer is nobody has God's Word! God preserved His Word so we too could have It!
Has God lead you to believe in the Bible you hold in your hand? Can you learn from that Bible? Does God teach you through that Bible? If so, then those feelings you have for that Bible are inspired. Are they not? So study It and embrace It for what It is, 'God's Love letter to you'!
Maybe I should have posted as 'Bashedformybeliefs'
Love in Christ, Bro. David Heb. 7:25
PS I came here to learn and share, I can get bashed and degraded just fine by the world, I never expected it out of fellow believers. I feel I am wasting my time here, I could be writing a Sermon about the Blessed Gospel of Jesus - ain't that what IT is all about boys? Well, at least it is for me!!!

Agree with your post of "learn and share". May I share with you? The whole Bible is a Love Letter, but we have only thirteen directed to us today. This is in our "personal and private mail". Until Acts all were involved in the "personal mail" written to Gods very own nation, created for Him. Before His nation began, and then created, all mail was for General Delivery.

Not until after Jesus Christ shed His Blood, and not until after Damascus Road could "Personal Love Letters" be addressed specifically to the heathen. Before there were no addresses to send them to, and no Zip Code, for none existed.

Our Love Letters are signed from - God the Father YOUR Savior, Through MY Only Begotten Son, Christ Jesus, preserved and presented by the "giver of gifts", The Holy Spirit.

P.S. from Christ: I gave My dispensational Gospel from heaven to Paul showing how WE are reconciling the world to US. Just as I gave the Law to my friend and servant Moses, and to John the Baptist the gospel of the “kingdom is at hand”, so gave I Paul his gospel. Believe on my name and I will save you.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[rjprince]

Bro David,

Points well taken. Please accept my sincere apology for having been offensive. And please understand that this is more than an apology for having offended you. Sometimes I tend to get very intense in stating the positions I hold to strongly, perhaps even brash.

I welcome you to this site and humbly apologize in hopes that we can indeed be friends. I should have been more reserved in my reply to you, particularly in noting that you were a new member to the site. Again I have spent much time on this one and feel pretty strongly about the issue.

Ray

 

[Plain Old Bill]

It's always good when we play well together.

 

[Bro. David]

Dear Tut,
Good post, yes learn and share, that is what it is ALL about my Brother!
Dear Ray,
Apology accepted, and no hard feelings! It takes a big man to apologize, and right now you are that man! If I could I would give you a Christian hug and a hand shake! Yes, I would like to be your friend.
I'll bet you are a young man. When I was young I chopped a few folks off at the knees myself. I hope I was man enough to apologize as sincerely and nicely as you have done!
Let me share a Scripture with you, I bet you already know it, but it fits you and I well;
"Psalms 119:139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words."
I appreciate a man who defends his position passionately. I tell the flock, "If you can't get excited about Jesus you are in the wrong business!"
Good to have you as a friend my Brother!
OK everybody, come out of your 'fox-holes', nobody got kilt! Contrariwise we are all beginning to make friends!
Let's talk about how good OUR God is!!!
Love in Christ Bro. David Heb. 7:25

 

[rjprince]

Bro David,

Wow. Thanks. I will tell my 19 year old son that you said I was a young man. You really are my friend! I hit the big 50 next year so I cannot really use youthfulness as an excuse...

Maybe I am just a slow learner...

When I was a young child, they put sign in front of my house that said "SLOW CHILDREN". I guess I still have not recovered from that label.

I tell our church, I may grow old, but I refuse to grow up! Except ye "become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Bro. David]

Dear Ray,
You iz still a 'spring chicken'
We are gonna live forever Brother we are just getting started!
Good to get to know you! You say, "I tell our church,...", are you a Pastor?

 

[rjprince]

Bro David,

Yep. www.bereachurch.org

 

[Ed Edwards]

Bro. David: //Again, I never even mentioned the King James Bible at ALL! Ed even asked me;
“Please tell me which Bible, which translation, which version, which edition. I
probably have one like it, if you will describe it. Thank you.”

//So to answer the question about which Bible I use, I use God’s Word.//

That does not answer my question. Let me try my question again.
On the shelves on my desk around and above my Flat Screen Computer Monitor,
i have about two dozen Bibles and several commentatries, Bible helps, and
concordances. Which of these Bibles shall i check your quotes in?

Because God requires me to be a Borean and check what you
say is God's written word then I need to know where to look, which book
to look into. I Work for God part-time checking Bibles. It seems a waste
of God's time He has me working for him to have to check several books each
time. (I spend 10 hours each work-day traveling to/from work and working
at a secular job.) I am not a pastor. I do not have siminary training,
i am trained in the 'First School of the Holy Ghost'.

Bro. David: " As a matter of fact I never mentioned one version above the other on this thread
- again I never even mentioned the KJB - I only quoted from it!"

AH ha! that cuts the search down. I have three different King James Versions
based on the KJV1611 Edition and three other versions that say "King James
Version" but have some other stuff on the spine so they aren't like the
original KJV1611 Editon either.

BTW, if you happen to have a Bible that i don't have, i have access to
several dozen on the internet. In fact, because i can use what i've
downloaded on e-sword even when i have no compute access (and my ISP = internet
service provider, seems want to be about ten minutes a day off the air
so i do get to study my e-sword. Anyway, what i have from e-sword is
the Geneva Bible, KJV1769 Edition with Strong's numbers (KJV+), and
the KJV1611 Edition.

I generally use the KJV1611 Edition in posts cause it is right there handy.
For toting to teach my Sunday School class i carry a HCSB = Holman
ChHristian Standard Bible.

Bro.David: //rj this thread was started on the premise,
“Just how inspired is your Bible?”.
This is a thread for Bible Believers to share there heart
felt thoughts about ‘their’ Bible. It is about
sharing, not bullying, not about cage rattling,
hitting first, or testing the thickness of
another members skin!//

So you can see my sharing about my Bible.
BTW, i've talked to all kinds of people in my 21-years on bulletin boards:
lesbians, gay-boys, ravers, trans-sexuals, role-playing-gamers not to mention
various religious/un-religious folks: Methodists, Mormons, Seventh-Day-Adventists,
Agnostics, Athiests, hyper-Athiests*, Pagans, non-Messianic Jews, etc.
One time i was just around the cyber-corner from the guys writing
L.Ron Hubbard's SF for him

*The athiest says their is no god.
The hyper-Athiest doesn't even ask the god question.

If you have a thin skin the agnostics will eat you alive.
They think that you are i are just alike and will accuse you of
my sins (well, what they think are my sins, they aren't all tall lamps).

Bro. David: "I will Pray for you,
and I certainly hope you
will Pray for me!"

I know you said that to Rj, but i'll take it said to me also.
This isn't a public school so i'll pray right out loud right here
in front of God and everybody else:

God, my Wonderful Father, i ask today you might put on
Bro. David, his family, and his ministry some of your best blessings.
May this be done that we might give ever more honor and glory unto
our blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah Yeshua. Amen!

 

[Bro. David]

Thanks Ed, for the Prayer,
Ed, you seem to be a very studious fellow with a vast amount of books and Bibles. We must 'Study to show thyself approved unto God,...'. I'm sure as studious as you are, just from the Bible I quote you can readily tell which Version, and what edition. Remember, this is not an ONLYISM thread. I posted on an Onlyism thread, as a matter of fact you know I was there, you replied to one of my posts. Redirect your question to that thread and I will be glad to answer you.
In your first question on this thread you said you might have a Bible just like mine - you can't Ed, mine has my name on It! (just a joke Ed, no dig, OK) Thanks again for the PRAYER, please keep Praying for me as I certainly will for you.
So Ray, you are a Pastor also.
That is the most honoured position a man can be called to. It is also very stressful! We have a duty to instill(by Preaching and Teaching) a sound Trust in the Word of God. Too many preachers(?) now try to make themselves the 'Final Authority' by saying things like: "This verse would better be rendered..."; "I feel this word would better be brought over as..."; etc. We need more good ole fashioned Baptist Preachers who would say, "Thus saith the Lord!". Our people need those who will stand firm by the Bible, not cast doubt upon It!
A question to everybody. Ever go out witnessing and have an unregenerate person say to you, "Those are just man's Words! Anybody can write anything on a piece of paper!" Those words hurt, we are at a loss for understanding. Of course we all know the verse; "I Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.". We know that, but still we shudder when someone disavows the Word of God! You see, when God sought us out and Saved us, He instilled(inspired) in us a Love for His Word, a Trust in His Word, a longing to know Him through His Word! A totally inspired Trust in the totally inspired Word of God, God really is good.
Come-on Helen, Humblesmith, - 'TOTALLY' right? Get back in here with us!
Love in Christ Bro. David Heb. 7:25
PS Yes Ed I did Pray for everybody here, I ask that you all in return Pray for me!

[ September 22, 2005, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Bro. David ]

 

[Bro. David]

Ray, and others,
Here is the link to our Church's WebPage;

http://geocities.com/theapostolicbaptistchurch/

 

[rjprince]

Bro David,

Thanks for the link will check it out later. In Nashville for a few days. My son is a student at Vanderbilt and was diagnosed with a brain tumor last spring. We are here for another MRI and to meet with his Docs. We are praying that the tumor will be smaller. It was slightly larger at the July MRI, so we just do not know. See two threads on the prayer section of the board.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/26/2064.html (most recent)

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/26/1965/1.html? (Original thread)

PLEASE, PRAY FOR MATTHEW AND US DURING THIS TIME!!!

Briefly (or not), re your authority comment...

I have always taught my people that the Word of God is the authority (BEREA Baptist, Acts 17:11 and all that). I have taught them that the translations they use can be fully trusted as the Word of God BUT that word for word and letter for letter inspiration pertains to the original autographs, not copies or translations. They do not seem to be at all confused over this; nor, have my church members over the past 24 or so years of ministry found this to be a problem. I do refer to the Greek and frequently put the anglicized and even the Greek forms of the words in my sermon note handouts on Sunday mornings.

It has never been a problem when I explain that some word meanings have changed in the nearly 400 years since the KJV has been translated and no longer convey the same sense that they did in 1611. I still use the KJV exclusively in preaching, but I sometimes refer to anther version that better captures the sense of the Greek. No one has a problem when I read “bowels” in 1John 3:17, and explain that the Greek idiom is better translated for our culture as “heart”. I dare say that there are few people in our culture who would properly understand an exhortation to “open up your bowels for your brother”. Word usages have changed in 400 years.

The English language has even changed significantly in some ways in my own lifetime. In 1970 if I said that someone was a “gay and happy person” it would have conveyed a totally different message than it does today. I am not sure how recognizing and addressing these facts is an assertion of myself as the authority over the Word of God. Is it wrong for me to tell my people that “bowels of compassion” means “heart of compassion” or that “charity” in 1Cor 13 means “love” and that oftentimes the Greek word is even translated as “love” by the KJV in over 80 other passages where it occurs, while it is translated as “charity” in less than 30? Does this mean that I am “correcting” God? Or does it simply mean that as God’s man, I am faithfully explaining God’s Word to my flock?

While I welcome your attempt to explain if and why you believe I have “corrected” the Word of God, ultimately, I, like you, answer to HIM, not man.

1Cor 4:1-5
1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Ray

 

[Bro. David]

Dear Ray,
Very GOOD points, if we, as Preachers do not put forth every and use evry means at our disposal, to expound the Word to our(God's) flock we would be poor under-shepards indeed!

Not only will myself, my family, but our entire Church will be Praying for Matthew! Tell Matthew we Love him and will be Praying for him. Please keep me informed about him, by e-mail or here.

Love in Christ my Brother Bro. David Heb. 7:25

 

[Me4Him]

As some of you have pointed out, word meanings change over time, and God, being aware of this, compensated for it in the Bible.

Instead of using words, "SYMBOLS" replaced some of those words, and the meaning of those symbols are defined in the scripture, it has it's own "build in dictionary", therefore the meaning of those "symbols" can never change or the interpretation thereof.

Understanding what those symbols mean is as "necessary" as knowing what the other words mean.

rjprince

PLEASE, PRAY FOR MATTHEW AND US DURING THIS TIME!!!


He's on our "prayer list".

 

[rjprince]

Thanks much for continued prayers. Will post as soon as possible after we meet with the Dr tomorrow (Fri, 9/23/05).


"Symbols" almost sounds like "code words". Makes me a bit nervous. Where is the code book key?

Certainly the Bible does use literary devices, figures of speech, etc. But I hope you are not suggesting that we must look beyond or away from the plain meaning of the words of the text?

Regarding word changes, Greek is a very precise language and koine Greek has been a dead language for some time. It is not continuously changing. We have an great abundance of Greek writings that are contemporary with the NT.

It is quite possible to determine word meaning with a high degree of precision for the way a word is used in other contexts if it is used often enough.

Let me make up a really NEW word -- nartle...

Do you know what nartle means? Me neither, I just made it up. Let's try this. Let me assign meaning to the word and use it in several contexts to see if you can discover the meaning I have assigned...

Every morning I put on my nartle. It goes on before my shoes. I usually carry a hankerchief in one of the pockets, my change and bills in another pocket, and my wallet in one of the back pockets of my nartle...

See. That was not that hard. Developing a better understanding of the Greek words is a lot like that. That is what lexicons do. Yes, I know I have greatly oversimplified, but I hope I have made my point.

Still wondering about these "symbol" words???

 

[Bro. David]

Dear Ray,
I told one of our Preacher Brothers on the coast about Matthew, y'all have another whole Church Praying for Matthew and your whole family. We will Pray for your traveling graces and we know they will find Matthew doing fine!
Hope to hear from you soon.

Oh, by the way Ray, what IS a nartle?

 

[rjprince]

Thank Bro David,

I'm sure your question was in jest, but in case anyone did not get it, pants. I put on pants before shoes and stuff things in my pants pockets. For the others like me who grew up with a "slow children" sign in front of their house.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by rjprince:
"Symbols" almost sounds like "code words". Makes me a bit nervous. Where is the code book key?

Certainly the Bible does use literary devices, figures of speech, etc. But I hope you are not suggesting that we must look beyond or away from the plain meaning of the words of the text?

In language studies, symbolism is one of the most common literary devices used by writers that is evidenced in some of the oldest writings known to mankind. The biblical writers also used this very common literary device as did Jesus in his teachings and God in his words through the prophets.

 

[rjprince]

Certainly there are symbols used in Scripture. When Jesus told Nicodemus, “you must be born again” He was speaking of a spiritual birth, not a physical. Nic picked up on this and asked, “Can a man be born when he is old?” He followed the symbolism and stayed in the same line of thought by asking “can he enter into his mother’s womb again?” He did not for one minute think that Jesus was suggesting a literal physical rebirthing. He was saying, “I am too old to go back and start over, I have too much committed to the current path of my life...” (IMHO)

HOWEVER, the use of figures of speech and other literary devices does not mean that we should look for a “deeper meaning” that is behind and out of line with the clear words of the text. That is what is commonly done in the “allegorical” method of interpretation (now more popularly called the “spiritual” method, with a subtle implication that those who lean toward a “literal sense if it makes sense” are somehow less spiritual than those who use the “code key”. The only question is who gets to decide what is code and what is not?

It is further clear that sometimes the words should be taken in a very literal sense in light of the fact that many specific prophecies have been fulfilled in a manner that indicates that the “literal sense makes sense” was the right interpretive approach. For instance, consider the following...

In Ezekiel 26, we have a very detailed account of the destruction of Tyre. The amazing thing about this is that when Ezekiel wrote, he was years ahead of the events of which he was speaking. In verses 6-11 the prophet predicted that first the daughter cities (suburbs) would be taken and then the main city itself. He said that the actual city would be thrown into the sea (verse 12); even stating that the very dust of the city would scraped up and the site of the city would be left as clean as the top of a rock (verse 4). Ezekiel further promised that the city would become a place for the "spreading of nets in the midst of the sea" (verse 5) and just for good measure he added that the ancient city of Tyre would never be rebuilt (verse 14).

All of these prophecies must have seemed a bit unusual, to say the least, in light of the fact that Tyre was probably the richest, strongest, and most prominent city in the world at the time. The prophecy concerning being cast into the sea and becoming a place for the fishermen to spread their nets must have especially seemed ridiculous since Tyre was at that time the "mistress of the seas" with the most powerful navy in the world. (Carthage was only a colony of Tyre and history tells us that the troops of Carthage, under Hannibal almost conquered Rome.)

The fulfillment of these prophecies is history. We know that Babylon, under Nebuchadnezzar, first captured the cities surrounding Tyre and then in 585 BC he overthrew the main city itself. After the battle the city was burned to the ground by the conquering Babylonian army. Many of the people of Tyre escaped to a neighboring Island which lay about a half mile offshore. With their strong navy they continued to defy the armies of Babylon from this new place of safety. At that time they appeared to be quite safe since Babylon had neither the time nor the money to attack them in their new place of safety. The remaining part of the prophecy waited a few more centuries before final fulfillment. In 333 BC, Macedonia under the leadership of Alexander the Great, overthrew the Persian empire. Before going on to conquer Egypt, he decided to attack the new city of Tyre, now on the Island. During the two hundred year interval between the war with Nebuchadnezzar and this time the city had become almost impregnable. The entire island was surrounded by a 150 foot high wall and the waterways approaching the island had been mined with under water obstructions which would sink any vessel running upon one of them.

Alexander knew that his navy was no match for that of Tyre so he decided to build a causeway from the mainland out to the island. To get the material for the causeway he decided to use the rubble from the old city which had lain in ruin since the time of Nebuchadnezzar. In order to complete the project his engineers had to use even the dust from the former city to fill in the causeway. As the centuries have passed sand from the sea has turned the causeway into a peninsula upon which fishermen now spread their nets. The prophecy has been fulfilled to the smallest detail.

Peter Stoner, a mathematician, once applied the law of compound probabilities to seven biblical prophecies concerning Tyre. He assigned conservative estimates of probability to each of the seven statements to see if Ezekiel's prophecy could have been fulfilled by chance. He concluded that Ezekiel's chances of writing this prophecy and having it come true by luck amounted to one chance in 75,000. Yet everything came true, to the letter, to the minutest detail. (John Phillips, Exploring the Future, Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1983, p. 17, cited, but not quoted in my post).

The point of this? Fulfilled prophecy is a very strong indicator that prophetic sections are frequently to be understood in a very literal sense, again, certainly allowing for figures of speech and other literary devices.

Micah wrote “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” (Mic 5:2)

IF WE FOLLOW THE SYMBOL APPROACH, we could suggest that since Bethlehem was a small city, any small city would have been sufficient to fulfill the prophecy. I STRONGLY DISAGREE!!! To suggest that since some symbols are used in Scripture, then all of it or even the bulk of it, or even just the prophetic sections should be interpreted in a manner that is non-literal does great damage to the text and is TOTALLY INCONSISTENT with prophecy that has already been fulfilled. It has been fulfilled in a very literal manner!!!

This is my concern with the “symbol” interpretive scheme that others have suggested. You may not have been going there with this, but certainly many others have.