freeatlast
New Member
Sounds like another paradox.
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Just how LIMITED is the ATONEMENT?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Sounds like another paradox.
freeatlast
New Member
The atonement is limited to........human beings.
Now that is a fact! :thumbs:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
And you have ignored the direct question to provide support for your claim that I've taken these Calvinistic scholars out of context.
In fact, since I posted these things I had a discussion with a notable Calvinistic scholar about this subject (though I don't have his permission to use his name, so I won't), and he confirmed that this has been a point of contention among Calvinistic scholars and that Hodge is in fact making the point that I've presented here and that my quotes are very contextually accurate. He gave me several other sources where Calvinists actually debate out this distinction that I can present if necessary, but before I do more work for you may I suggest you provide support for you accusations or recant them.
The atonement is limited to........human beings.
Yes a token effort
At least there its effective for some. (Whom God Chooses) With the other model its effective for who chooses God. Now I agree....the human element is firmly in play.
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I aim to please. :laugh:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Thank you for the refocus!
Not if God has placed a condition (faith) on the provision of Grace.
If a man commits a crime and has to pay a fine he can't afford stand before a judge who says, "I've paid your fine for you and I'll let you go free if you will admit your crime and apologize." Has the debt been paid? Yes. But the judge put a condition on receiving the benefit. If the man refused to admit his wrong doing he will still go to prison. Does that mean his debt wasn't really paid or the offer made by the judge wasn't really genuine? Of course not.
As Calvin himself said, "As no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief." - John Calvin
Yes, and John Calvin is one of those people.
They are held to account for what they do know and understand (Rm 1)...they KNOW God but refuse to believe...they too perish for unbelief.
The concept that Christ suffered just so much for just so many is not only unbiblical but not what historical Calvinism has taught (see quote from Hodge above).
This is the idea that Jesus just suffered and died for so many sins and any of them not included must be paid for in hell. That is not the biblical view of propitiation. The sacrificial lamb NEVER 'covered' the sin of the unrepentant and unbelieving, but that doesn't mean its not available for them had they repented and believed. In other words, the lamb didn't just apply to a select few sins...it applied to ALL who repented and all were called to repent....thus there is no reason to believe all didn't have that ability.
Before I could even begin to believe this, I would have to get a lot of clarification from elders I know & trust.
Who of my Calvinist brothers can we get to run a background check on these statements?
this quote attributed to Calvin is accurate, IF given in total context. Calvin further states the conditions of believing. Man, of his own innate being, cannot believe. He must be acted upon by God in grace and faith, which is God's prerogative, not fallen man.
Cheers,
Jim
Cheers,
Jim
If Jesus did not die for the unelect, how can they be guilty of unbelief?
If Jesus did not die for Joe Schmuck, then if Joe does not believe Jesus died for him Joe would be correct, would he not?
In fact, Joe Schmuck would be calling God a liar if he believed Jesus died for him if he is unelect. Is this not true?
If Jesus did not die for Joe Schmuck, then if Joe does not believe Jesus died for him Joe would be correct, would he not?
In fact, Joe Schmuck would be calling God a liar if he believed Jesus died for him if he is unelect. Is this not true?
Tom Butler
New Member
Tom Butler said:
Jim1999 said:
Jim's post places repentance and faith in the proper perspective, as unilateral gifts of God. What God required,he supplied.
Isaiah 53:11 is clear and unequivocal. God's justice was entirely and completely satisfied. That being the case, there has to be an explanation for those who are in hell. In my opinion, the argument that they refused to repent and believe in Jesus falls short, since it makes the "travail of his soul" neither sufficient nor efficient.
The better explanation is that the atonement was aimed at a group described as the elect, and completely satisfied God's justice. It was both sufficient and efficient for those for whom it was intended.
It is also consistent with Matthew 1:21 "....he shall save HIS PEOPLE from their sins..
psalms109:31
Active Member
Man doesn't want God's way to salvation but their own way.
To depend on God not themselves is to much depending on me is not a truth.
Man wants a way that doesn't hold them responsible where they end up, but God say's you can only be saved by believing in Him.
You may think by your reasoning that they are saved because what they did, they believed they are saved by what God did.
You cannot make them feel guilty for salvation for believing God.
Too many elect to them has been cut out, disowned for unbelief and have to make their election sure and see no security in it. Only security is in Jesus Christ the only one who can protect us all the way to heaven.
Psalm 46:
1 God is our refuge and strength,
an ever-present help in trouble.
2 Therefore we will not fear, though the earth give way
and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea,
3 though its waters roar and foam
and the mountains quake with their surging.[The Hebrew has Selah (a word of uncertain meaning) here and at the end of verses 7 and 11.]
Selah I was told is to pause and think about it.
"That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory, but they are not. The fault is in our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everthing is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that the converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, when all truth doth spring."
C. H. Spurgeon
Autobiography I, 174.
To depend on God not themselves is to much depending on me is not a truth.
Man wants a way that doesn't hold them responsible where they end up, but God say's you can only be saved by believing in Him.
You may think by your reasoning that they are saved because what they did, they believed they are saved by what God did.
You cannot make them feel guilty for salvation for believing God.
Too many elect to them has been cut out, disowned for unbelief and have to make their election sure and see no security in it. Only security is in Jesus Christ the only one who can protect us all the way to heaven.
Psalm 46:
1 God is our refuge and strength,
an ever-present help in trouble.
2 Therefore we will not fear, though the earth give way
and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea,
3 though its waters roar and foam
and the mountains quake with their surging.[The Hebrew has Selah (a word of uncertain meaning) here and at the end of verses 7 and 11.]
Selah I was told is to pause and think about it.
"That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory, but they are not. The fault is in our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everthing is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that the converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, when all truth doth spring."
C. H. Spurgeon
Autobiography I, 174.
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The group the atonement was aimed at was the entire human race. "For God so loved the WORLD", not part of the world.
HIS PEOPLE are the Jews. Context rules. He came to His own, but His own did not receive Him. His own were the Jews.
But the Jews rejected Him, so salvation was opened up to Gentiles. Jesus said the kingdom would be taken from the Jews and given to another. And so it was. This is also prophesied in the OT.
Salvation, both in the OT (which is a shadow of the New Covenant) and the NT, results from an atonement being made (the shedding of blood, without which there can be no forgiveness of sins) AND faith. There cannot be salvation without both. That's why you have a problem with the atonement being for all. It satisfies God's wrath against sin, but God also requires faith in addition to the atonement.
So even though Jesus atoned for ALL sin, only those who believe will be saved.
amyg
the perfect atonement accomplished and saved all it was intended to save
Hebrews 10:14.....
Nothing needs to be .....added to it....or it would not be perfect.
Nothing can be added to it.
the perfect atonement accomplished and saved all it was intended to save
Hebrews 10:14.....
Nothing needs to be .....added to it....or it would not be perfect.
Nothing can be added to it.
Were you saved apart from faith?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Tom Butler
New Member
I don't know how I missed it the first time around.
For the most part, I think your post is pretty solid. I am with you all the way down to the last two paragraphs.
Since I am a DoG, my answer has to be no. The payment is limited to the elect (since the payment completely satisfies God). Otherwise, the "travail of his soul" in Isaiah 53 doesn't satisfy God.
That said, I agree that God will refuse no one who comes to him in repentance and faith.
Jesus saves His people....Jew and gentile......at the cross.....The Father accepts the perfect sacrifice of the Son on behalf of those given to the Son.
The work was "finished" then. God allows us to take hold of that salvation , through faith. Saving faith is part of the gift of salvation.
We do not have saving faith inherently. We take hold of salvation through faith,yes, but that very faith is given to each of the elect.
Faith is an instumentality...it is not something we add to the perfect work that Jesus accomplished.
All believers are saved by grace, through faith.
Very solid summation my friend:thumbs:
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