Just what must I do to be saved?

[cdg]

Yelsew,

I do not imply that we are God(sorry, if you inferred that). I say that our faith comes from God.
God does give grace.
Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power." He also talks about grace being given in verses 2 and 8.
James 4:6 "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace of God that is given to us, whether we prophesy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"
There are more verses that mention God giving grace also.
God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.
God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.
Because of Him we do love though. We wouldnt know about what true love is about without Him. When one thinks of real love, one may think of sacrafice. God manifests or commendeth His love for and to us by the sacrafice, substitution, and suffering of Christ. He gives us our love, Romans 5:5 and 1 John 3:1.
Still, Yelsew, your version holds no weight. Those 38 men are wrong. Though you have studied under well-known men, that does not change the truth. I will stick with what I have because it IS the Word of God.
If being in Scripture is trouble, I hope I am in trouble often. My "literalist approach", you mean just believing what it says ,and understanding when there is no hint of analogy or figurative meaning to take it literal. That is one of the first rules of Bible study, i think, take Scripture literal and unless there is a valid reason not to. I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance. Can you show me a Scripture from the KJV that disagrees with this? Now, there are some verses that say "in Christ" but that does not go against these Scriptures in the least.
My view does not go against Scripture..
Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ..
The Bible says it is by the grace of God that salvation appears. Yes, and it appears through the Word of God. This perfectly lines up with what I said about Romans 10:17.
Are you post-trib? Because I believe I will be caught up before God's wrath comes. I will stand before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I may sin and God chasten me, but God is not leaving or forsaking me. I have been sealed by His Sprirt. So whatever happens to me is His will. And 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith not by sight." I do not dispute that there is a judgment day coming.
Sir, you still have not answered these verses.

 

[cdg]

Yelsew,

I do not imply that we are God(sorry, if you inferred that). I say that our faith comes from God.
God does give grace.
Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power." He also talks about grace being given in verses 2 and 8.
James 4:6 "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace of God that is given to us, whether we prophesy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"
There are more verses that mention God giving grace also.
God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.
God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.
Because of Him we do love though. We wouldnt know about what true love is about without Him. When one thinks of real love, one may think of sacrafice. God manifests or commendeth His love for and to us by the sacrafice, substitution, and suffering of Christ. He gives us our love, Romans 5:5 and 1 John 3:1.
Still, Yelsew, your version holds no weight. Those 38 men are wrong. Though you have studied under well-known men, that does not change the truth. I will stick with what I have because it IS the Word of God.
If being in Scripture is trouble, I hope I am in trouble often. My "literalist approach", you mean just believing what it says ,and understanding when there is no hint of analogy or figurative meaning to take it literal. That is one of the first rules of Bible study, i think, take Scripture literal and unless there is a valid reason not to. I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance. Can you show me a Scripture from the KJV that disagrees with this? Now, there are some verses that say "in Christ" but that does not go against these Scriptures in the least.
My view does not go against Scripture..
Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ..
The Bible says it is by the grace of God that salvation appears. Yes, and it appears through the Word of God. This perfectly lines up with what I said about Romans 10:17.
Are you post-trib? Because I believe I will be caught up before God's wrath comes. I will stand before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I may sin and God chasten me, but God is not leaving or forsaking me. I have been sealed by His Sprirt. So whatever happens to me is His will. And 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith not by sight." I do not dispute that there is a judgment day coming.
Sir, you still have not answered these verses.

 

[cdg]

Yelsew,

I do not imply that we are God(sorry, if you inferred that). I say that our faith comes from God.
God does give grace.
Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power." He also talks about grace being given in verses 2 and 8.
James 4:6 "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace of God that is given to us, whether we prophesy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"
There are more verses that mention God giving grace also.
God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.
God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.
Because of Him we do love though. We wouldnt know about what true love is about without Him. When one thinks of real love, one may think of sacrafice. God manifests or commendeth His love for and to us by the sacrafice, substitution, and suffering of Christ. He gives us our love, Romans 5:5 and 1 John 3:1.
Still, Yelsew, your version holds no weight. Those 38 men are wrong. Though you have studied under well-known men, that does not change the truth. I will stick with what I have because it IS the Word of God.
If being in Scripture is trouble, I hope I am in trouble often. My "literalist approach", you mean just believing what it says ,and understanding when there is no hint of analogy or figurative meaning to take it literal. That is one of the first rules of Bible study, i think, take Scripture literal and unless there is a valid reason not to. I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance. Can you show me a Scripture from the KJV that disagrees with this? Now, there are some verses that say "in Christ" but that does not go against these Scriptures in the least.
My view does not go against Scripture..
Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ..
The Bible says it is by the grace of God that salvation appears. Yes, and it appears through the Word of God. This perfectly lines up with what I said about Romans 10:17.
Are you post-trib? Because I believe I will be caught up before God's wrath comes. I will stand before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I may sin and God chasten me, but God is not leaving or forsaking me. I have been sealed by His Sprirt. So whatever happens to me is His will. And 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith not by sight." I do not dispute that there is a judgment day coming.
Sir, you still have not answered these verses.

 

[cdg]

Yelsew,

I do not imply that we are God(sorry, if you inferred that). I say that our faith comes from God.
God does give grace.
Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power." He also talks about grace being given in verses 2 and 8.
James 4:6 "But He giveth more grace. Wherefore He saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace of God that is given to us, whether we prophesy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;"
There are more verses that mention God giving grace also.
God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.
God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.
Because of Him we do love though. We wouldnt know about what true love is about without Him. When one thinks of real love, one may think of sacrafice. God manifests or commendeth His love for and to us by the sacrafice, substitution, and suffering of Christ. He gives us our love, Romans 5:5 and 1 John 3:1.
Still, Yelsew, your version holds no weight. Those 38 men are wrong. Though you have studied under well-known men, that does not change the truth. I will stick with what I have because it IS the Word of God.
If being in Scripture is trouble, I hope I am in trouble often. My "literalist approach", you mean just believing what it says ,and understanding when there is no hint of analogy or figurative meaning to take it literal. That is one of the first rules of Bible study, i think, take Scripture literal and unless there is a valid reason not to. I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance. Can you show me a Scripture from the KJV that disagrees with this? Now, there are some verses that say "in Christ" but that does not go against these Scriptures in the least.
My view does not go against Scripture..
Titus 2:11 " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," ..
The Bible says it is by the grace of God that salvation appears. Yes, and it appears through the Word of God. This perfectly lines up with what I said about Romans 10:17.
Are you post-trib? Because I believe I will be caught up before God's wrath comes. I will stand before Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and I may sin and God chasten me, but God is not leaving or forsaking me. I have been sealed by His Sprirt. So whatever happens to me is His will. And 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith not by sight." I do not dispute that there is a judgment day coming.
Sir, you still have not answered these verses.

 

[cdg]

I am sorry for all the same posting. My computer was not showing me that the posts went through. Sorry for the inconvenience. I tried again and again but never knew that I had ever gone through till just now. Yelsew, I am sorry for all this same posting. Thank you for understanding (I hope).

 

[Yelsew2]

CDG,
Do you really believe that Grace is transferable? If Yes, then since you have so much of it, perhaps you could give me some of yours. If you are "an elect" you obviously have nothing to fear regarding your salvation, so it should be no big deal for you to transfer some of your God given Grace to me, after all you can always ask for more.

If you can do that, you may be able to convince me that God gives his grace to man.

While you're at it, please transfer some of your God given faith, and Love, you obviously think I am lacking in them, so help me, won't you please?

When I get it, I'll post right here for everyone to see so they too can believe as you do that God gives those things.

God does not see for us but he did give us our sight. We exercise sight because he gave us our sight.
God gave us our hearing. The only reason I hear is because God gave me hearing.

That's been my point all along, God gave all of us in the creation all the sensors our flesh needs to gather information for our spirit. You know the spirit is what salvation is all about don't you? The spirit sees and hears differently than the flesh. When the spirit "sees", that means the spirit grasps the message, the concept, the principle, the truth, the error, etc. When the spirit "hears", that means the message is absorbed and understood. Thus Faith cometh by "hearing" means that the spirit has heard the word of God and understood, and therefore has found that word trustworthy, and FAITH is the result. Not all spirits respond favorably to the Word of God, many of them reject the message as not believable.

So, we hear and see with our natural senses, and our spirit "hears" and "sees" in accordance with what it is fed through our physical sensors. Then when we are confronted by the Holy Spirit, our spirit responds based upon what it already believes, that is why faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Faith is not given to us from outside of ourselves. Faith is not transferred to us from God, else that would negate "faith cometh by hearing". God gave us his word, we hear his word and believe and FAITH is thereby established within us.

I suppose you think the King James was translated by God, but truly it was translated in a country thousands of miles from where the original lanquage texts were written. The KJV was translated by Englishmen 1.6 milleniums after the Church of Jesus Christ was established in a "foreign" country. But of course those translators just picked up the telephone and called Jerusalem and made sure that their work was accurate to the ancient languages. Not to worry mate! You're right, you got the only 100% accurate King James English Language version of the Bible.

I am reading to you Scripture that is in harmony with the rest of the Bible, there is no variance.

That must be the reason you insist that Ephesians 2:8 declares that the gift of God is faith, and that it is grace that saves, in spite of the fact that the rest of scripture declares that FAITH is what God looks for in man and that Grace is God's behavior toward man.

Titus 2:11 YES, it is grace that allows sinful man to hear the word of god and believe unto faith, and thereby have the free gift of salvation to those who believe in the Son of God.

What is it that appears through the word of God?

We walk by faith? How does that fit with faith is the gift of God?

No my friend your theology lacks credibility.

 

[cdg]

About the transfer of grace, hope, and love...

Grace(God's) is given by God. Not man, sorry if I said or implied otherwise. Though human grace (favor) can be given but it is very different than the grace of God.
I was wrong if/when I said man can give faith. I can tell you something to put your faith in, but that doesnt mean you have to. But it is God dealts to every man a measure of faith. And it is God who gives saving faith.
Love can be given. One gives love to a spouse, family, friends, etc. But God gives His love to His children. We love sinners because we love Him, and He loves sinners. We love the brethren because we love Jesus.

I cant convince you of grace, and if the Bible wont convince you nothing else will. I am one of God's elect, and so are you if you are saved and everyone else that is saved. Surely you believe in election since it is in the Bible. Now, we may disagree with the defintion or particulars but it is in the Bible. I dont know what exactly what you are in need of. I do not know you very well. I do not that you understood when I messed up same posting, and you didnt mention my verse out of context after I apologized for it.
The man is spiritually dead until he is saved. The Spirit of God quickens a sinner who is dead in trespassas and sins. So one cant have all those spiritual sense till God gives them to you.
Repentence and saving faith are given by God.
We hear the Word of God and God gives us faith when it pleases Him. Salvation is of the Lord.

I think that God preserved His inspired Word into the English language through the KJV. I do believe the TR is inspired of God and if those translated through the use of the TR if by qualified men using formal equivalence then a version may be translated into any language. I understand for some missionaries, they cant do all of this, so they translate the best they can into the language they need the Bible im and God uses them and their version.
Grace is God's gift to man, unmerited favour.
Saving faith is trust in Christ's death,burial, and resurrection and blood atonement. But a dead man cant believe, a dead man cant respond, and until God gives repentence and faith a man cant be saved. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts a man to be saved. And some go so far and say no to God ang God lets them alone, but others God continues to deal with and then brings them to a place of repentence and faith.
We who "walk by faith" are saved. So we have saving faith, and we have God-given faith to live by everyday.
Credibility?, my theology(as much as I know) comes from the Word of God. I give you Scripture and you disagree. There probably is not away for you to believe my point if you reject the Scriptures or try to change them. I only insist on what the Scripture says.

 

[Yelsew2]

God Behaves in accordance with his grace, and withholds his justice.
Man behaves in accordance with man's grace, usually, and does not strike out in vengeance...usually.

God loves man and gives man gifts that demonstrate his love.
Man loves man and gives gifts that demonstrate man's love.

God behaves in accordance with his mercy, and does things for man such as healings, etc.
Man behaves in accordance with his mercy, and does things that are "merciful".

In none of these is the attribute, grace, love or mercy, transfered from one being to another being.

You say that love can be given one to another. If that is true, then one can be emptied of love, another can become obiese with love. Same with Grace and Mercy.

You say that repentence is given by God. That is completely false. Repentence is demanded by God of man. If your child is misbehaving, you do not give your child repentence, you demand repentence as the sign that your child has changed from misbehavior to right behavior. Repentence is the stopping of that which offends. God does not give one the stopping, he demands it of man.

Neither is FAITH given by God to man, however the reasons to have FAITH have been given to man by God. He is the author of our faith, because he established all the reasons for man to have faith, and made man with the faculty for faith.

The New Jerusalem Bible is translated from the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic manuscripts, isn't that the claim for the King James? The difference is one is in the Language of King James English while the NJB is in "modern English". I don't speak King James English, so I prefer the modern English version.

I hope that you will find the time to study the words so that you can gain a useful understanding of that which is Holy.

 

[humbleherc]

What if the Lord spoke to you out of the wirlwind .I don't know that we should answer for The Almighty things to great for us.Since his ways are so much higher than our ways ,so much we can not find him out.I know this much,i like corsponding with you people,but when it comes right down to it i know i could be wrong.We have to weigh it out among ourselves as to what is right and be very carefull in that.

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
God Behaves in accordance with his grace, and withholds his justice.
Man behaves in accordance with man's grace, usually, and does not strike out in vengeance...usually.

God loves man and gives man gifts that demonstrate his love.
Man loves man and gives gifts that demonstrate man's love.

God behaves in accordance with his mercy, and does things for man such as healings, etc.
Man behaves in accordance with his mercy, and does things that are "merciful".

In none of these is the attribute, grace, love or mercy, transfered from one being to another being.

You say that love can be given one to another. If that is true, then one can be emptied of love, another can become obiese with love. Same with Grace and Mercy.

You say that repentence is given by God. That is completely false. Repentence is demanded by God of man. If your child is misbehaving, you do not give your child repentence, you demand repentence as the sign that your child has changed from misbehavior to right behavior. Repentence is the stopping of that which offends. God does not give one the stopping, he demands it of man.

Neither is FAITH given by God to man, however the reasons to have FAITH have been given to man by God. He is the author of our faith, because he established all the reasons for man to have faith, and made man with the faculty for faith.

The New Jerusalem Bible is translated from the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic manuscripts, isn't that the claim for the King James? The difference is one is in the Language of King James English while the NJB is in "modern English". I don't speak King James English, so I prefer the modern English version.

I hope that you will find the time to study the words so that you can gain a useful understanding of that which is Holy.

 

[Yelsew2]

Once again Herc, what does that have to do with transferability of Attributes?

I'll bet you have never considered the true essence of those words, Grace, Mercy, and Love. You are really having difficulty putting your arms around them and holding on to them.

I strongly suggest that you obtain a copy of A.W.Tozer's "KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOLY", a 100 page discussion of some of the Attributes of God. Some of which God did enable in his created man, for we humans are capable of love, mercy and grace. Since we, each of us, are capable of loving, mercy and graciousness, whether or not we are Born from above, it must be true that those attributes that God gave to man are not transferrable, and that Divine love, grace and mercy are also not transferrable because they are behavioral attributes of the one who possesses them. We live our lives in accordance with them. Some exhibit more grace than others, but that is because the one doing so has learned different lessons in life.

Which of our behavioral attributes is dominant, is determined by the choices we make as individuals. The same with God, and He has chosen to abide in his Grace toward mankind for what to us seems a long long time, so that we can, while his grace prevails, learn of His great love for us, and of the Gift of Grace that he gave us in His only begotten son. We can therefore hear the word of God, and come to faith in His only Son, and thereby receive God's gift of salvation, eternal life.

I believe that God is going to change from Grace to Judgment in the not too distant future, and that this world will not be a safe place to be. And that there is no safe place to be for those who refuse to have faith in God.

 

[humbleherc]

I have enough trouble understanding the scriptures i don't need mans help when it takes the Lord to reveal it to me.God is his own interpreter.I have dreams and visions and i don't always know what they mean till later.I have to be lead of the spirit and shone the meaning.

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Once again Herc, what does that have to do with transferability of Attributes?

I'll bet you have never considered the true essence of those words, Grace, Mercy, and Love. You are really having difficulty putting your arms around them and holding on to them.

I strongly suggest that you obtain a copy of A.W.Tozer's "KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOLY", a 100 page discussion of some of the Attributes of God. Some of which God did enable in his created man, for we humans are capable of love, mercy and grace. Since we, each of us, are capable of loving, mercy and graciousness, whether or not we are Born from above, it must be true that those attributes that God gave to man are not transferrable, and that Divine love, grace and mercy are also not transferrable because they are behavioral attributes of the one who possesses them. We live our lives in accordance with them. Some exhibit more grace than others, but that is because the one doing so has learned different lessons in life.

Which of our behavioral attributes is dominant, is determined by the choices we make as individuals. The same with God, and He has chosen to abide in his Grace toward mankind for what to us seems a long long time, so that we can, while his grace prevails, learn of His great love for us, and of the Gift of Grace that he gave us in His only begotten son. We can therefore hear the word of God, and come to faith in His only Son, and thereby receive God's gift of salvation, eternal life.

I believe that God is going to change from Grace to Judgment in the not too distant future, and that this world will not be a safe place to be. And that there is no safe place to be for those who refuse to have faith in God.

 

[Yelsew2]

I have enough trouble understanding the scriptures i don't need mans help when it takes the Lord to reveal it to me.God is his own interpreter.I have dreams and visions and i don't always know what they mean till later.I have to be lead of the spirit and shone the meaning.

This 100 page booklet that I recommended to you is one tool that God used to get my attention. As dumb as I am, any tool that brings me closer to Holy God, is a Gift of GRACE. Due to my limited time, I cannot sit and read a 1500 page "theory of operation" written by someone just like me. But if you give me a 100 page text that I can read in an hour or two, and gain tremendous insight into things HOLY, and I'll read it twice in a weekend, and repeat the reading over and again.

 

[humbleherc]

Bullbutter.The only help we can count on is that we get from up above.not a booklet

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I have enough trouble understanding the scriptures i don't need mans help when it takes the Lord to reveal it to me.God is his own interpreter.I have dreams and visions and i don't always know what they mean till later.I have to be lead of the spirit and shone the meaning.

This 100 page booklet that I recommended to you is one tool that God used to get my attention. As dumb as I am, any tool that brings me closer to Holy God, is a Gift of GRACE. Due to my limited time, I cannot sit and read a 1500 page "theory of operation" written by someone just like me. But if you give me a 100 page text that I can read in an hour or two, and gain tremendous insight into things HOLY, and I'll read it twice in a weekend, and repeat the reading over and again. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Yelsew2]

Bullbutter.The only help we can count on is that we get from up above.not a booklet

Remain ignorant then, your ignorance has no bearing on me or my salvation.

 

[cdg]

On repentance...

Acts 5:31 and 2 Timothy 2:25 both mention God giving repentance; Acts 11:18 talks about God granting repentance. So God does give(grant) repentance according to the Bible(KJV).

"Repentance is the stopping of that which offends. God does not give one the stopping, He demands it of man." You seem to be saying that man can quit sinning anytime he wants to and live for God, but this is unscriptural, Esau sought a place of repentance but never found it. Revelation 2:21 refers to God giving space to repent, and then judging the Jezebel. Jesus in John 12 hides Himself from the people so that they could not believe.
According to Scripture, God does give grace, love, and faith.
On the KJV, the language of the KJV is on a 5th grade reading level. As long as one is saved he should be able to understand it. The KJV does not need to be updated, It still is as much the Word of God as when it was first translated. And God still uses it today. If the Jerusalem Bible disagrees with the KJV, then it must not be worth much.
I like Tozer too, but if he disagrees with Scripture on this issue, then I can not agree with him on it.

 

[Yelsew2]

Then Why John the Baptist? He said to men, "repent the kingdom of God is at hand". The apostles all say to man "repent". No where in scripture is it found that man asks God for repentance. Repentance is something that man must do, it is man "changing from by ceasing to do that which offends".

And Yes, repentance is something that men can do with respect to each other, and that men can do with respect to God. Even the most vile of people can repent from doing that which offends others. I personally have witnessed this happen among unspiritual people, so I know first hand that man can repent without repentance being given to him. One example of many that I have witnessed is in a landlord vs tenents situation where the landlord repented of ignoring the needs of his tenents and the tenents repented of deliberate acts of vandelism against the landlord. The landlord deliberately reduced his "profit" in order to satisfy the basic needs of his renters, the renters in turn, stopped "costing the landlord" extraordinary expenses. The relationship has been good and has lasted now for nearly 15 years. The tenents are contented due to the landlord's repentence and the landlord is contented with good tenents.

A classic example of repentence that was not "given".

As for bible versions, my faith is not based on any particular version of the bible, it is based on the truth revealed in scripture, which is supported by the Holy Spirit that dwells within me.

 

[cdg]

Acts 20:21 shows how to be saved, "...Repentence toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ". And a man cannot have that repentence or faith till God gives it to them. This has been shown in Scripture.
John the Baptist, Jesus Christ ,and the apostles all did preach repentence. And there is no contradiction. God told us to repent, and we repent when he gives it to us.

Your example may be classic ,but it still flawed, #1 God does not ignore our needs, #2 He is not just a landlord, He is the LORD, and #3 it does not change the Scriptures, they still say that God gives repentence.

There is not just "truth" revealed in Scripture, but the Bible is truth. The whole Bible, not just parts, is truth.

 

[Yelsew2]

cdg,

Like I posted on another thread

Regeneration is like sitting in a rocking chair on the porch, when the aroma of a freshly baked spice apple pie invades your presence. The aroma causes the "sleeping" part of your being to awaken to the prospect of eating the pie. If you get up and leave the area, the aroma does not follow you lest the wind be blowing in that direction. But if you get up and go to where the pie is, you may very well be enjoying that succulently delicious pie.

If you sense that something good is contained in the Word of God but refuse to open it, you have gotten up and left the area. But if you open the Word of God, you will be confronted with life. It is then that you must decide to take part, or simply to close the book and go your own way.

Repentence is the result of faith, not the precursor to it. One does not have to be repented of sin in order to open the bible for the first time. God's Word works on us in the condition we are in, not in the final holy condition God will put us in.

God gave us his Holy Word, not our faith! Our faith comes from what is contained in the Holy Word of God. If God gave us faith, He need not have given us His Word. But in order for us to come to faith, God gave us His word, both living in the form of His son and in the Preachers, and in printed form.

When one commands repentence such as John the Baptist's command, "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand", many simply ignored John and went on there own way. But those who obeyed John's command did so out of faith in what John was telling them, not necessarily FAITH in God, but maybe faith in John, or in the words he spoke. We men, do what we believe in. We do not strive for that for which we have no faith. (humanity 101)

Repentence is the state of giving up what you cannot keep in order to gain that which you cannot lose. Faith is the means by which one repents, that is, faith in the promise of that which you cannot lose.

Conviction of one's sins, is the catylist for repentence. Until one knows what one must repent from, one cannot repent! Conviction of one's sins can come from various sources, but for the "Born Again", that conviction comes from the Holy Spirit.

Yes, one can be 'born again' while still in a state of sin! In fact, you cannot be born again in a state of holiness, if you are holy, you are sinless, and not in need of being born again.

Scriptural repentence is always directed to those with FAITH. It is those with FAITH, yet who are not Conformed to holiness that are called to repentence. Every one of Paul's writings is to those who are Born Again! Peter writes to those who Born Again, Jude's letter is a warning against false teachers, but who do you think would read it? That's right, the 'Born Again'. False teachers would ignore it and keep on teaching falsehood. Hebrews, regardless of author, is written for the "born again".

The Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and I add Acts, are written to all men, regardless of there Faith condition. For these books contain the Gospel. All the other NT books are explanation and edification to the believers, and Revelation with all of its symbology introduces the "fear factor" to unbelievers who happen to read it, while for the Born Again, it is the "assurance" of ones faith.

Jesus command to repent is this, 'if you believe in me, repent from sin'. So faith comes before repentence, and not the other way around.

 

[cdg]

I believe repentence and faith go together. I mentioned them how I found them in Acts 20:21. Your pie analogy almost makes me want to go eat a pie, but it still does not change the truth. The reason why I will not and cannot agree with your position is that I have repeatedly given you Scripture for my point of view. Scripture will not change. It is still truth; it is still right. About the Word of God, it must be spiritually discerned and a man cant do that without the aid of the Holy Spirit. A lost man cannot understand the things of God, they are foolishness and a stumbling block to him. God must give light to man, man is in darkness when it comes to the Bible and salvation.

 

[Yelsew2]

cdg,
It is odd that the Holy Spirit leads you to believe one thing while leading me to believe nearly the opposite.

Just why do you think of me as a "lost man"? Is it because I state my understanding of the truth of scripture differently than you are use to? I could engage in "scripture posting", and have done so occasionally, but it seems that posting scripture does not lead to understanding the principle, but only leads to confusion and arguments over the meaning individual words. What a waste of time that is. All one needs is a good comprehensive dictionary to resolve word meaning issues.

Most of the time scriptures posted are taken out of their context in such a manner that they can mean anything the poster wants them to mean. But Ideas and Concepts are much more difficult to confuse. So cdg, you keep on posting your favorite, 'belief proving' scriptures that you've taken out of context, and I'll keep posting the ideas and concepts that surround those scriptures.

But rest assured I am not "a lost man". Though I was the 100th sheep that was lost, my shepherd left the 90 and 9, and came and found me. Now I am safe and secure in His loving arms, from which No on and no thing can snatch me away. All praise and Glory to my lord and Savior Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ.