Justification By Faith Alone is Not Biblical

[Saved-By-Grace]

No sir you responded to my question, you have not answered it.

can you please give me it again?

 

[Darrell C]

what does justification mean to you from the Bible?

I just gave you a post describing the difference between Abraham being justified on a temporal basis as opposed to Abraham being justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

If you would calm down a little, set your anger against Calvinism aside, perhaps you might be able to have a discussion with the people here. And just to clarify...I am not a Calvinist.

Your anger blinds you.

Read the post again. We can go from there.


God bless.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The Scriptures state, "No one" (that excludes all people ever born) "can come to me unless the Father draws them." John 6:44.

It is repeated for emphasis in John 6:65, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

There is also that most direct statement from John 14:6, "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

THE FIRST "must do" is that the Father draw that person through Christ unto Himself.

Part of that package of course is repentance, but it is not the "first to do" for then the salvation would rest upon some level of activity commensurate with the level of devotion, emotion, action, dedication, or some manner of self offering of penance.

Rather the very Acts 2 passage offered as a proof text in the OP gives the correct presentation.

"And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved."​

This is not some Calvinist or Arminian view, it is that view held by the Scriptures, in which BOTH sides agree.

Without the direct and purposeful work of the Holy Spirit using the Scriptures, there is NO salvation offered, and no desire even for repentance other than that which is referred to as earthly and of the world meaningless, "Sorry. My bad." which is of no value to grace or faith.

in case you have not fully read the OP, I have not said that God does not have to take the first step in the salvation of the sinner. We are not discussing this here. I have said that repentance and faith, what Jesus Himself taught (Mark 1:15) are equal pre-requirements for any sinner to be saved, as that it is what the sinner must DO, but this is NOT an "earned" thing.

 

[Revmitchell]

can you please give me it again?

There repentance does not justify them. Only faith does per scripture (Romans 3:24;5:1). Romans 6:23 says salvation is a gift. If you are given a gift and someone hands that gift to you, you then reach out and take that gift, do we then say you also took part in giving yourself that gift because you reached out and took possession of it?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I just gave you a post describing the difference between Abraham being justified on a temporal basis as opposed to Abraham being justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

If you would calm down a little, set your anger against Calvinism aside, perhaps you might be able to have a discussion with the people here. And just to clarify...I am not a Calvinist.

Your anger blinds you.

Read the post again. We can go from there.


God bless.

you make me laugh! and how do you conclude that I am angry? You refer to Abraham, so does James in his Epistle, where he speaks of "faith without works being dead"

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

There repentance does not justify them. Only faith does per scripture (Romans 3:24;5:1). Romans 6:23 says salvation is a gift. If you are given a gift and someone hands that gift to you, you then reach out and take that gift, do we then say you also took part in giving yourself that gift because you reached out and took possession of it?

the accepting of the gift, in this case, salvation, is only possible when the sinner repents. I have already addressed this more than once. It is not that I give myself the gift of salvation, but the Lord does so when I "repent and believe" which Jesus taught in Mark 1:15. I don't understand how anyone can argue with what Jesus says here, nor has anyone even bothered to explain this verse here? Can you do so?

 

[Darrell C]

I am not a blinded Calvinist or Reformed.

No, you are a Christ rejecting cultist, creating your own religion.

I know you very well, I speak with many of your brethren.

You have ignored the very first thing that the Lord Jesus says in Mark's Gospel, which is REPENT and BELIEVE, (1:15)

Not only is this not the first thing, you completely miss anything that might be of value to help remedy your false notions.

Let's back up:


Mark 1
King James Version (KJV)

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.


So come to understand this: John preached and baptized with water...unto repentance.

But what does John have to say?

"Sure, I baptize with water...but Jesus Christ will baptize with the Holy Ghost."

So which is more important, Repentance? Or being baptized with the Holy Ghost?

Now I ask you, one simple question...

...Who baptizes with the Holy Ghost?

Let's see an example of someone being baptized with the Holy Ghost:


Acts 10:37-44
King James Version (KJV)

37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.


What "Word" do you suppose he means?


Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Men are saved when they hear the Gospel, believe, and trust in Christ.

That is what you need to do.

Repentance is granted to men that believe on Jesus Christ, so if you want to repent truly, you must believe the Gospel, and right now you are in direct opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

BOTH that the sinner must DO.

Not unless God grants it.

Until you can see and understand this, your reasoning is faulty!

So show me repentance on Cornelius' part.

Show me Cornelius being baptized...before he received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

You will not, because you cannot.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

further, if you want to be arrogant and condescending in your responses directed at me, I will ignore what you say. Act like a Christian if you are one!

You do not dictate how I post.

Act like an heretic, and you will be treated like one.




God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

do we then say you also took part in giving yourself that gift because you reached out and took possession of it?

Yes. You reached out for it. Had you not reached out for it you would have done no work. God gifts us with His amazing Grace quite apart from the works of the flesh. God's Grace comes upon us apart from any works or merit on our part.

 

[agedman]

I am not a blinded Calvinist or Reformed. You have ignored the very first thing that the Lord Jesus says in Mark's Gospel, which is REPENT and BELIEVE, (1:15) BOTH that the sinner must DO. Until you can see and understand this, your reasoning is faulty!

Mark writes in a linear fashion. That is he lays out the story he desired to present as moving from point "A" to "B" excluding any writing technique other then a single thread. He never flashed back or flashed forward, but presents a concise time line oriented narrative of statements of facts.

However, Mark was also not present at the events, but relies upon others recollections in which he records. Therefore, although he is accurate, it is also important to not rely upon his account exclusively. Only Matthew and John have that exalted standing of having been with the Lord from the baptism.

So, when you reach into the Scriptures to attempt to bolster some claim, it must always be balanced and in your presentation of "must first" it has certainly not only become unbalanced, but fallen off.

What does the balance of Scriptures teach must come first as it pertains to salvation?

1) it is a gift of God
2) it is not attained by some to do list.
3) it involves the direct and purposed action of the Father.
4) it involves the direct and purposed action of the Holy Spirit.
5) it involves the direct and purposed use of the Scriptures (the Word, the Logos, the Lord Jesus).​

As a result (not as the catalyst but the reaction to the first work of God) is that expression recorded in Romans 10.

8In fact, it says,

“The message is very close at hand;
it is on your lips and in your heart.”​

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.​

Therefore, young man, it is salvation has ALREADY taken place (as Romans 10 shows) for the message is "on your lips" and already "In your heart" RESULTING in confession (repentance included) that Jesus is Lord.

Please, young man, do not miss this. Not a single person will confess without the message of salvation already implanted in the heart and on their lips.

In other words, that person has already been drawn to the Father, has already been redeemed, has already been adopted, and the results are confession that Jesus is Lord.

Do not demand from the Scriptures more. For such as you are presenting is not supportable unless you take that which is given as proof texting.

Proof texting is never good in attempting to formulate nor support a view.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Mark writes in a linear fashion. That is he lays out the story he desired to present as moving from point "A" to "B" excluding any writing technique other then a single thread. He never flashed back or flashed forward, but presents a concise time line oriented narrative of statements of facts.

However, Mark was also not present at the events, but relies upon others recollections in which he records. Therefore, although he is accurate, it is also important to not rely upon his account exclusively. Only Matthew and John have that exalted standing of having been with the Lord from the baptism.

So, when you reach into the Scriptures to attempt to bolster some claim, it must always be balanced and in your presentation of "must first" it has certainly not only become unbalanced, but fallen off.

What does the balance of Scriptures teach must come first as it pertains to salvation?

1) it is a gift of God
2) it is not attained by some to do list.
3) it involves the direct and purposed action of the Father.
4) it involves the direct and purposed action of the Holy Spirit.
5) it involves the direct and purposed use of the Scriptures (the Word, the Logos, the Lord Jesus).​

As a result (not as the catalyst but the reaction to the first work of God) is that expression recorded in Romans 10.

8In fact, it says,

“The message is very close at hand;
it is on your lips and in your heart.”​

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.​

Therefore, young man, it is salvation has ALREADY taken place (as Romans 10 shows) for the message is "on your lips" and already "In your heart" RESULTING in confession (repentance included) that Jesus is Lord.

Please, young man, do not miss this. Not a single person will confess without the message of salvation already implanted in the heart and on their lips.

In other words, that person has already been drawn to the Father, has already been redeemed, has already been adopted, and the results are confession that Jesus is Lord.

Do not demand from the Scriptures more. For such as you are presenting is not supportable unless you take that which is given as proof texting.

Proof texting is never good in attempting to formulate nor support a view.

"In other words, that person has already been drawn to the Father, has already been redeemed, has already been adopted, and the results are confession that Jesus is Lord."

so, all of this happens without the sinner repenting and believing? You simply cannot make light of what Mark writes, as he too is fully Inspired by the same Holy Spirit! What of Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38?

 

[Darrell C]

you make me laugh!

No I don't, be honest with yourself.

and how do you conclude that I am angry?

That is pretty apparent.

You refer to Abraham, so does James in his Epistle, where he speaks of "faith without works being dead"

Like I said, read the previous post about justification.

Paul and James are not at odds because both are not speaking of Eternal Redemption.

The Old Testament Saint was Justified but was still in need of being freely (which means they did nothing) justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

We don't interpret Romans 3 with Romans 4, but we interpret Romans 4 based on the truths of Romans 3:


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Who's righteousness is seen in Chapter 4? Abraham's. Who's works are seen in James 2? Abraham's.

Now, Who's Righteousness is seen in Romans 3?

What are men justified through now? God's grace freely given, not earned. Through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Not because a man sets his will to repent as the disciples of John the Baptist did.

Calm down, my friend, and listen to the Word of Life. He will save you. You cannot do this.


God bless.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

No I don't, be honest with yourself.




That is pretty apparent.




Like I said, read the previous post about justification.

Paul and James are not at odds because both are not speaking of Eternal Redemption.

The Old Testament Saint was Justified but was still in need of being freely (which means they did nothing) justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

We don't interpret Romans 3 with Romans 4, but we interpret Romans 4 based on the truths of Romans 3:


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Who's righteousness is seen in Chapter 4? Abraham's. Who's works are seen in James 2? Abraham's.

Now, Who's Righteousness is seen in Romans 3?

What are men justified through now? God's grace freely given, not earned. Through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Not because a man sets his will to repent as the disciples of John the Baptist did.

Calm down, my friend, and listen to the Word of Life. He will save you. You cannot do this.


God bless.

what of Jonah 3:7-10, especially verse 10?

 

[Darrell C]

"In other words, that person has already been drawn to the Father, has already been redeemed, has already been adopted, and the results are confession that Jesus is Lord."

What did Christ teach?


John 3:14-17
King James Version (KJV)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


John 12:32-34
King James Version (KJV)

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?


Who did Christ come into the world to save?

"All" men. The world.

But how will they be saved?

By believing on Jesus Christ, and specifically, that He was "lifted up," defined in v.33 of the second quote as His crucifixion.

So what saves men?


God bless.

 

[agedman]

"In other words, that person has already been drawn to the Father, has already been redeemed, has already been adopted, and the results are confession that Jesus is Lord."

so, all of this happens without the sinner repenting and believing? You simply cannot make light of what Mark writes, as he too is fully Inspired by the same Holy Spirit! What of Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38?

You are attempting to present such as Mark does, in a linear fashion.

That is not the presentation of The Scriptures.

There is not a this, followed by this, followed by this, followed by ....

Salvation is not presented in a linear fashion, but you taking from Mark are attempting to make it conform to such a fashion.

Salvation is presented as a reaction to a catalyst.

One is dead, something took place (catalyst), resulting in that person is alive.

One is ungodly, something took place (catalyst), resulting in that person is righteous (justified, saved from wrath).


What is the catalyst?

The very work of God, not of human.

Prior to Peter confessing, it had to be revealed to Him by the Father. Is that not the clear statement of the Lord in Matthew 16 concerning a cause? Yet, was Peter actually saved at the time?

 

[Darrell C]

what of Jonah 3:7-10, especially verse 10?

What about it?


Jonah 3:7-10
King James Version (KJV)

7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.


As I have tried to show you numerous times...we don't equate conditions in the Old Testament with New Covenant conditions, elements, and provision.

In the Old Testament, for example, the Children of Israel were given manna. Christ compares this with His flesh which He will give for the life of the world. Manna did not keep men from dying, His flesh (Sacrifice) will.

Abraham was not eternally redeemed because he believed God would make of him a great nation, or that many nation would proceed from him, or...that he would give him a son.

He was justified in the same temporal manner that men received atonement for sins through vicarious animal death.

Above we have in view...physical destruction. Most of the Old Testament is presented in type, figure, shadow, parable, etc. The reality of Salvation in Christ did not begin until Christ established the New Covenant through His Blood, His Death, His Sacrifice.

Abraham was "made perfect" in regards to remission of sins when Christ died on the Cross. So we don't take his faith and works by which he was justified and equate that with being eternally redeemed through faith in Christ.


God bless.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You are attempting to present such as Mark does, in a linear fashion.

That is not the presentation of The Scriptures.

There is not a this, followed by this, followed by this, followed by ....

Salvation is not presented in a linear fashion, but you taking from Mark are attempting to make it conform to such a fashion.

Salvation is presented as a reaction to a catalyst.

One is dead, something took place (catalyst), resulting in that person is alive.

One is ungodly, something took place (catalyst), resulting in that person is righteous (justified, saved from wrath).


What is the catalyst?

The very work of God, not of human.

Prior to Peter confessing, it had to be revealed to Him by the Father. Is that not the clear statement of the Lord in Matthew 16 concerning a cause? Yet, was Peter actually saved at the time?

my friend, in the first place, "God commands all men everywhere to REPENT" (Acts 17:30). This command is something that ALL must DO. It is not done for them. I do NOT deny that salvation is of the Lord from start to finish. But, that it requires that all sinners must REPENT first and BELIEVE before they are saved. Did you check out Jesus' words in Luke 24:47, and Peter's in Acts 2:38?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

What about it?


Jonah 3:7-10
King James Version (KJV)

7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.


As I have tried to show you numerous times...we don't equate conditions in the Old Testament with New Covenant conditions, elements, and provision.

In the Old Testament, for example, the Children of Israel were given manna. Christ compares this with His flesh which He will give for the life of the world. Manna did not keep men from dying, His flesh (Sacrifice) will.

Abraham was not eternally redeemed because he believed God would make of him a great nation, or that many nation would proceed from him, or...that he would give him a son.

He was justified in the same temporal manner that men received atonement for sins through vicarious animal death.

Above we have in view...physical destruction. Most of the Old Testament is presented in type, figure, shadow, parable, etc. The reality of Salvation in Christ did not begin until Christ established the New Covenant through His Blood, His Death, His Sacrifice.

Abraham was "made perfect" in regards to remission of sins when Christ died on the Cross. So we don't take his faith and works by which he was justified and equate that with being eternally redeemed through faith in Christ.


God bless.

As I have tried to show you numerous times...we don't equate conditions in the Old Testament with New Covenant conditions, elements, and provision.

so, has God changed His mind on the requirements that He demanded in the Old Testament, in the New?

 

[Darrell C]

so, has God changed His mind on the requirements that He demanded in the Old Testament, in the New?

That's what you need to understand...no man could meet the righteous requirement of God.

Abraham is included in this group:


Romans 3:9-18
King James Version (KJV)

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


No man met the righteous requirement. Not Abraham, not anyone, except...

...Jesus Christ.

That is the heart of the Gospel, my friend, God saves us because we could not.


God bless.