Justification by faith, like Preterism, not in the creeds. But Biblical

[HankD]

Hank, I hope to get to some of this tomorrow. Part of it, at least. You know as well as I that this is well-trodden ground. But you have always been courteous to me so I will do what I can to answer in kind. The part about death, though, I might just do in a new thread.

Yes we have been here before but for the benefit of others to understand our differences and decide for themselves via a civil debate is important.

 

[Dave G]

So when will you be getting the physically resurrected body?

Never. Neither will you. I will be one of the "spirits of just men made perfect".

With respect, that's not the way I see it, Tom.

" but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect," ( Hebrews 12:22-23 )

If you are one of Christ's sheep, you already ARE one of the spirits of just men made perfect.
Just two chapters before, He tells us how those spirits are made perfect ( in God's eyes )...by the blood of the Lamb:

" but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. " ( Hebrews 10:12-14 )

While we as believers are in the body, our spirit is perfect, while our flesh is not ( Romans 7:15-25, Galatians 5:17, 1 John 3:9 ).

We know from Scripture that flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God ( 1 Corinthians 15:50 ).
But I also see that we will have glorified bodies that the Lord gives us during the first resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 ), and I see this specifically when I read 1 Corinthians 15:51, when it says we will be changed.
If we are spirits without bodies, then the "change" has already taken place upon regeneration...we now have new spirits.

But there's more:

As I see it, there are spiritual bodies that are prepared for the believer...and it is at the first resurrection, when Christ sends forth His angels to gather the elect from the four winds ( Matthew 24:31 ).

Have you not read in I Corinthians 15 that we will be like the Lord from heaven.

Yes, but I see that there's more to be said from Scripture about how we will be like Him:

" For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:" ( 2 Corinthians 5:2-4)
From my perspective, the "house" spoken of here is our new, resurrected body.
The same as the Lord has:

" For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." ( Philippians 3:20-21 )

" And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body." ( Romans 8:23 )


As believers, I see first, the redemption of our souls, then at His coming, the redemption of our bodies.
We have two bodies...one "terrestrial" and one "celestial".



When I put all the pieces together, that's what I come up with.

 

[Dave G]

Now I'd like to address what I stated earlier, before I went to fellowship with a brother this afternoon:
Preterism tries to explain some or all of what will happen in the last days, as having already happened.

As a framework, I'd like to post part of Matthew 24 ( we could also use Mark 13, but I think Matthew 24 will suffice ) and run through it point by point.
He begins what I believe to be the timeline of His entire coming again, here:

" And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" ( Matthew 24:3 )

Here He is asked specifically about two things...the sign of His coming again, and of the end of this present world.

Then I see this:

" And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows." ( Matthew 24:4-8 )

I see the underlined as having already happened, and are still happening.

" Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." ( Matthew 24:9-14 )

Again, all the underlined are still happening and have happened...except for the last part.
The Gospel still needs to be preached in all the world for a witness to ALL nations.

It's close, but not quite yet, in my estimation.
There are still a few languages and places where it has not yet reached.

Part two, next.

 

[Dave G]

" When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains:
17 let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened." ( Matthew 24:15-22 )

Have you seen the underlined happen yet?
If so, when did it happen?
If it did happen, then verse 21 has also happened, because it says, THEN shall be great tribulation...and I don't remember hearing or reading about anything that has exceeded the plagues of Egypt ever occurring in all of history.


Skipping the parts in Matthew 24:23-28, I come to this:

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-31 )

Here I see that immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Lord says He will come.
Verse 29 is His "heralding", and it will be tremendous and very obvious.
I haven't seen it yet, so that means several things haven't happened:

1) The abomination of desolation as spoken by Daniel the prophet ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11 ) has not happened yet.
Regardless of what happened in Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the Abomination hasn't happened... because the tribulation hasn't happened and we are not yet in the literal 1,000 year reign...which ended some 900 years ago if that were true.

2) His second coming, which all eyes shall see ( Revelation 1:7 ) has not happened yet, or we would know about it.

3) His gathering of His elect from the four winds ( the so-called "Rapture", or catching away ) has not yet happened, and that comes immediately after the tribulation, as He is coming down ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 ).


So, with all this said and by process of elimination, there's no way for Preterism or even partial Preterism to be true, because the really important parts have not yet occurred.

That is my view, and it's something that has come to me slowly over the past 15 years of study.
If you wish to teach it, then that is on you, sir...I'll have no part of it, because I am still looking for His coming, and I know that it follows both Anti-Christ ( the "beast" ) and the "Great Tribulation", because that is what Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both show me, for a framework and a "timeline".

Yes, I see the temple of Herod ( the Second Temple ) being destroyed in 70 A.D. as was prophesied in Matthew 24:1-2 and Mark 13:1-2, but most everything else is still in progress or has not yet happened.


May God be pleased to bless you in many ways, sir.

 

[robycop3]

Jesus told us that his Second Coming would be fulfilled while those living in the first century were still alive (Matthew 10:23; Matthew 16:27-28; Mathew 26:64; Luke 21:22, 28, 32; Revelation 1:1-3; Revelation 22:6, 12, 20).

No getting around that.

Yes there IS; IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!

Jesus wasn't wrong, of course - your understanding of the Scripture is.

Matt. 10 :2323 “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

This was before He died, of course. He DID come - to jerusalem, to be crucified.

Matt. 16:27-28
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Some of the prets' fave verses. Yes, some of the disciples saw Him in His transfiguration. He very-obviously did NOT make His promised return in the 1st century, as the earth has gone on same as it did then. Had he returned then, the millenium would be over, Satan would be in gehenna, and the new heavens & earth would be in place. That's why those two verses are separate.

Matt. 26:64
64 Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
64 Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

And eventually he WILL see those things. His return simply hasn't happened yet.

lUKE 21:22
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The "days of vengeance' prophesied against the Jews was fulfilled in 70 AD, This was a separate event from Jesus' return. After this came their punishment for killing Jesus, beginning in 135-136 AD when Hadrian kicked them outta their homeland.

Luke21 2828 But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

True. Some of those things are starting to take place.

Luke 21:3232 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

And the generation that sees these events begin will see'em all!

The Greek word "genea", here rendered 'generation', can also mean race, people, the successive members of a genealogy, etc. IT'S OBVIOUS THOSE ABOVE MEANINGS WERE USED BY JESUS HERE, AS HE SIMPLY HAS NOT YET RETURNED ! !

Preterism is made up of excuses, innuendo, & guesswork. There's not one quark of TRUTH to it. It was dug up from some obscure old writings by some Jesuits, including Alcazar, who wanted to keep their pope from being labeled the antichrist.

IT'S SIMPLY ONE BIG PACKA LIES!

 

[robycop3]

Remind me exactly when this prophecy was fulfilled:

Acts 1:9-11 KJV
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. [10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This passage should make you rethink all your verses you mentioned that only prove preterism by taking things out of context and forcing certain definitions onto words.

Right! Prets should check out both the ORIGIN of preterism, as well as its VERACITY. I'm still wondering when all life in the seas died since Jesus was here.

 

[robycop3]

You should listen to your ex-pastor. Justification by faith is found in the very earliest extra-biblical documents which pre-date the creeds. Try the Epistle of Clement xxxiii, usually dated around 90AD.

And whether you like it or not, Acts 1:11 blows hyper-preterism out of the water.

Let alone, YJIS'N !

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

I have eyes, & they aint seen Him coming with the clouds.

And "all the tribes of the earth" means JUST THAT, not only the Israelis, as some foolishly say!

 

[robycop3]

" When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains:
17 let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened." ( Matthew 24:15-22 )

Have you seen the underlined happen yet?
If so, when did it happen?
If it did happen, then verse 21 has also happened, because it says, THEN shall be great tribulation...and I don't remember hearing or reading about anything that has exceeded the plagues of Egypt ever occurring in all of history.


Skipping the parts in Matthew 24:23-28, I come to this:

" Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:29-31 )

Here I see that immediately after the tribulation of those days, the Lord says He will come.
Verse 29 is His "heralding", and it will be tremendous and very obvious.
I haven't seen it yet, so that means several things haven't happened:

1) The abomination of desolation as spoken by Daniel the prophet ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11 ) has not happened yet.
Regardless of what happened in Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the Abomination hasn't happened... because the tribulation hasn't happened and we are not yet in the literal 1,000 year reign...which ended some 900 years ago if that were true.

2) His second coming, which all eyes shall see ( Revelation 1:7 ) has not happened yet, or we would know about it.

3) His gathering of His elect from the four winds ( the so-called "Rapture", or catching away ) has not yet happened, and that comes immediately after the tribulation, as He is coming down ( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 ).


So, with all this said and by process of elimination, there's no way for Preterism or even partial Preterism to be true, because the really important parts have not yet occurred.

That is my view, and it's something that has come to me slowly over the past 15 years of study.
If you wish to teach it, then that is on you, sir...I'll have no part of it, because I am still looking for His coming, and I know that it follows both Anti-Christ ( the "beast" ) and the "Great Tribulation", because that is what Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both show me, for a framework and a "timeline".

Yes, I see the temple of Herod ( the Second Temple ) being destroyed in 70 A.D. as was prophesied in Matthew 24:1-2 and Mark 13:1-2, but most everything else is still in progress or has not yet happened.


May God be pleased to bless you in many ways, sir.

Partial preterism is as false as full preterism.
Why?
Jesus said , in Matt. 24, that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIB, there'd be a great cosmological disturbance, during which He'd return. If the trib has already occurred, he's long-overdue !

One must look to Daniel 11 2 Thess. 2, & Rev. 13 to see what the "abomination of desolation" is. It'll be when the "beast" & his sidekick the false prophet enter the temple in Jerusalem, have the beast's statue set up, which the FP will cause to speak by Satanic power, while the beast declares himself to be God, which'll most likely be carried by CNN, etc.

This event did NOT occur in the old temple, which was destroyed in 70 AD, nor did Antiochus Epiphanes do it in BC times, as Jesus said it was still future. In other words, it's still a FUTURE event!

No rocket science needed to see preterism is phony as a Chevy F-150 !

 

[Aaron]

Jesus told us that his Second Coming would be fulfilled while those living in the first century were still alive (Matthew 10:23; Matthew 16:27-28; Mathew 26:64; Luke 21:22, 28, 32; Revelation 1:1-3; Revelation 22:6, 12, 20).

No getting around that.

Calling the cited events the Second Advent is an interpretation.

 

[Dave G]

Partial preterism is as false as full preterism.
Why?
Jesus said , in Matt. 24, that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIB, there'd be a great cosmological disturbance, during which He'd return. If the trib has already occurred, he's long-overdue !

One must look to Daniel 11 2 Thess. 2, & Rev. 13 to see what the "abomination of desolation" is. It'll be when the "beast" & his sidekick the false prophet enter the temple in Jerusalem, have the beast's statue set up, which the FP will cause to speak by Satanic power, while the beast declares himself to be God, which'll most likely be carried by CNN, etc.

This event did NOT occur in the old temple, which was destroyed in 70 AD, nor did Antiochus Epiphanes do it in BC times, as Jesus said it was still future. In other words, it's still a FUTURE event!

No rocket science needed to see preterism is phony as a Chevy F-150 !

If you didn't pick up on my blurb, I'm against it, not for it.
Both forms.

Here's my summary statement from my last post:

So, with all this said and by process of elimination, there's no way for Preterism or even partial Preterism to be true, because the really important parts have not yet occurred.

Blessings to you, sir.

 

[Dave G]

Jesus said , in Matt. 24, that IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIB, there'd be a great cosmological disturbance, during which He'd return. If the trib has already occurred, he's long-overdue !

I agree.

Right! Prets should check out both the ORIGIN of preterism, as well as its VERACITY. I'm still wondering when all life in the seas died since Jesus was here.

" And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea." ( Revelation 16:3 )

I am under the impression that it is men who will die ( because as I see it, only mankind have souls )...but you may have a point.
I'll have to think about that, prayerfully.


In the meantime, may I remind everyone that the Lord wants us to be kind, one to another?
Let's all discuss this peaceably, and with as much digging into Scripture as possible.

 

[37818]

Those who say that Preterism is not a historical position (as my ex-pastor admonished me) need to understand that justification by faith is not "historical" either - that is, neither beliefs are found in creeds. In the Bible, yes, but not in the creeds.

The Biblical eschatology is what is actually historical. That various interpretations have historically existed since the writings of the NT. Those who hold [the heretical] Preterism or Orthodox Preterism believe that is the correct view, or they would not hold such views. [Personally I hold a premillennial post tribulational [pre-wrath] view point since about 1969.]

 

[Dave G]

[Personally I hold a premillennial post tribulational [pre-wrath] view

As do I.

 

[asterisktom]

As do I.

As did I back around the turn of the century. In fact I started the first Prewrath group in Yahoogroups.

New paragraph.
I intend to get back to the other posts here later when I have more time today.

 

[37818]

As did I back around the turn of the century. In fact I started the first Prewrath group in Yahoogroups.

New paragraph.
I intend to get back to the other posts here later when I have more time today.

Specifically what changed in your understanding of he topic?

 

[Dave G]

As did I back around the turn of the century.

Sorry to hear it.

With that said, I believe my participation in this thread to be at an end.
I see nothing in all of God's word that would make me change my mind on "Preterism", as my understanding of this subject has grown slowly over time, and I've already dealt with this subject many times in my own studies.

As I see it, the "Reformers", by and large, were wrong on Christ's second coming, teaching a-millennialism instead of a literal 1,000 year reign with Christ sitting on the throne of His earthly father, David ( Luke 1:32 ).
Many people are wrong when they teach the popular, "two-part second coming" developed by Darby...as Matthew 24 and Mark 13 do not bear it out.
Many people are wrong when they teach a 7 year tribulation, when according to several passages, it is 42 weeks ( 3.5 years, a time, times and half a time, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14 ).
Many people are wrong to teach that Christ's coming again is imminent... when what is imminent from Scripture, is Anti-Christ's appearing, followed by 3.5 years of tribulation, followed by God's elect being gathered to Christ according to Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

From God's perspective, it is all "imminent" ( 2 Peter 3:8 ).
From ours, it could take another 1,000 years, or one decade or even one year.
From both, it must follow what Jesus Himself revealed to His apostles through His word, because He only ever spoke what the Father gave Him to speak ( John 7:16, John 12:49, John 17:8 ).



I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you richly in this life and in the next, if it should be His will.

 

[asterisktom]

If you wish to teach it, then that is on you, sir...I'll have no part of it, because I am still looking for His coming, and I know that it follows both Anti-Christ ( the "beast" ) and the "Great Tribulation", because that is what Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both show me, for a framework and a "timeline".

I think it is telling that throughout your Olivet passages you quoted only Matthew and Mark. I understand why though perhaps you don't. Luke's description of events has a different ordering. When you compare the three accounts one can see that much of what is supposed to be future (acc. to Matt.) is actually already past. Also one can see that the disciples did not ask three questions but just one.

I would go into detail but I think Dave already left this discussion.

 

[asterisktom]

Specifically what changed in your understanding of he topic?

Part of the answer is in this post:
Justification by faith, like Preterism, not in the creeds. But Biblical

Also, about nine or ten years ago I led a Bible study on Hebrews. It lasted over a year. One man came to almost all the sessions. He was a full preterist. Because the study was an informal one there was plenty of discussion after I went through the week's study I had prepared. He politely asked questions that kept turning on red lights. At first I was shocked at his views, but it made me study the Bible more and more. I wanted to refute him but could not find the means in Scripture. It dawned on me that my position was at fault.

This is when I read The Parousia again.

During that study I started out Amill but ended up preterist.

 

[37818]

Part of the answer is in this post:
Justification by faith, like Preterism, not in the creeds. But Biblical

Also, about nine or ten years ago I led a Bible study on Hebrews. It lasted over a year. One man came to almost all the sessions. He was a full preterist. Because the study was an informal one there was plenty of discussion after I went through the week's study I had prepared. He politely asked questions that kept turning on red lights. At first I was shocked at his views, but it made me study the Bible more and more. I wanted to refute him but could not find the means in Scripture. It dawned on me that my position was at fault.

This is when I read The Parousia again.

During that study I started out Amill but ended up preterist.

Jordan, I don't really know you but it may very well be that I have believed pretty much as you do now for over thirty years. So I pretty much know all about your position. I have taught it, preached it, rebuked preterists along with JWs and Mormons. In my mind they were pretty similar. But one book that got my attention was "The Parousia" by J. Stuart Russell, forward by RC Sproul. At my first reading I wrote angry notes in the margins. But the more I studied the verses he brought up, bearing in mind especially cross-references, the more I began to see that there were serious defects in my eschatology.

I write all this to suggest that maybe you need to look closer into what these verses actually teach. For starters you can look at the two links I brought up in the earlier post.

I have already done my rethinking on Acts 1:11. I suggest you do it too.

What you explained is too general. What I wanted to know was to be more specific.
For example:
Matthew 24:34. The generation is who the "you" is identified to be. They are the "ye" in Matthew 24:33.

And I understand them to be those who see the events in Matthew 24:29. And I understand that event is yet future. And it is my understanding that it to be understood to be one event that is mentioned 11 times: Isaiah 13:10. Isaiah 24:23. Ezekiel 32:7. Joel 2:10 - Revelation 6:12. Joel 2:31 - Acts 2:20. Matthew 24:29 - Mark 13:24 - Luke 21:25.

 

[asterisktom]

What you explained is too general. What I wanted to know was to be more specific.
For example:
Matthew 24:34. The generation is who the "you" is identified to be. They are the "ye" in Matthew 24:33.

And I understand them to be those who see the events in Matthew 24:29. And I understand that event is yet future. And it is my understanding that it to be understood to be one event that is mentioned 11 times: Isaiah 13:10. Isaiah 24:23. Ezekiel 32:7. Joel 2:10 - Revelation 6:12. Joel 2:31 - Acts 2:20. Matthew 24:29 - Mark 13:24 - Luke 21:25.

Oh, OK. Sorry, I misunderstood. All of those Olivet passages are addressed to Jesus' immediate audience. Notice, like I mentioned to Dave, that the ordering of events in Luke is quite different in Luke than it is in Matthew.

But the rest will have to wait, probably till tomorrow. But I do plan to write more on this. Kinda tired now.