Justification by faith, like Preterism, not in the creeds. But Biblical

[37818]

Oh, OK. Sorry, I misunderstood. All of those Olivet passages are addressed to Jesus' immediate audience. Notice, like I mentioned to Dave, that the ordering of events in Luke is quite different in Luke than it is in Matthew.

But the rest will have to wait, probably till tomorrow. But I do plan to write more on this. Kinda tired now.

That is the Preterist view point. The plural pronoun "you," "ye" can also refer to others, not the immediate audience.. Two examples of this are: John 3:7 & Matthew 3:11-12.
John 3:7, Jesus addresses Nicodemus with a singlar pronoun "thee" and switches to the plural "ye" meaning everybody.
Matthew 3:11-12. John explains Jesus will immerse "you" plural, to be understood to be referring to both saved and lost. The saved with the Holy Spirit and the lost in the judgement, lake of fire.

So the "ye" in Matthew 24:33 are understood to refer to those who see the events in Matthew 24:29.

 

[asterisktom]

Specifically what changed in your understanding of he topic?

What really convinced me were the "this generation" passages. It just didn't make sense in the contexts that Jesus would be speaking of a race rather than a period of time. This coupled with His pronouncement in Matt. 16:

"27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

The lame explanations that were offered finally just appeared unsatisfactory.

"Some" is certainly the wrong word for a period of only 6 days. It is also the wrong word for 50 days (Pentecost). It would be embarrassingly trivial for our Lord to have meant that. No, a period of decades fits best. And that points to AD 70 as the only other option.

Added to this I noticed the connection between Matt. 5:18 and Luke 21

""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

"31“So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."

Notice in Matt. 5:18 that up until the very time that "all is accomplished" every single part of the Law is in force (every "jot and tittle"). This points to one Law-ending event, at the same time as all being accomplished. There is certainly no possibility of a gap of 2000 years.

In other words, those who insist that all is not yet accomplished must admit that we are still under the Law, in all of its force and minutiae.

Other clinchers were the 19 "in that Day" passages in Zechariah and how they were referenced in the New Testament, showing that all of these spoke about one period in time, the first century, not two disparate periods separate by almost 2000 years.

There were other clinchers, notably many of the passages from Hebrews which I was teaching through at the time, but this will do for now.

 

[asterisktom]

I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you richly in this life and in the next, if it should be His will.

Hmm. A left-handed blessing if ever there was one!

 

[robycop3]

Sorry to hear it.

With that said, I believe my participation in this thread to be at an end.
I see nothing in all of God's word that would make me change my mind on "Preterism", as my understanding of this subject has grown slowly over time, and I've already dealt with this subject many times in my own studies.

As I see it, the "Reformers", by and large, were wrong on Christ's second coming, teaching a-millennialism instead of a literal 1,000 year reign with Christ sitting on the throne of His earthly father, David ( Luke 1:32 ).
Many people are wrong when they teach the popular, "two-part second coming" developed by Darby...as Matthew 24 and Mark 13 do not bear it out.
Many people are wrong when they teach a 7 year tribulation, when according to several passages, it is 42 weeks ( 3.5 years, a time, times and half a time, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14 ).
Many people are wrong to teach that Christ's coming again is imminent... when what is imminent from Scripture, is Anti-Christ's appearing, followed by 3.5 years of tribulation, followed by God's elect being gathered to Christ according to Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

From God's perspective, it is all "imminent" ( 2 Peter 3:8 ).
From ours, it could take another 1,000 years, or one decade or even one year.
From both, it must follow what Jesus Himself revealed to His apostles through His word, because He only ever spoke what the Father gave Him to speak ( John 7:16, John 12:49, John 17:8 ).



I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you richly in this life and in the next, if it should be His will.

My view has been the same ever since I was saved Nov. 22, 1978. It's based upon believing Scripture LITERALLY AS POSSIBLE & realizing that what symbolism there is in Scripture always represents something or someone literal. And it's based upon COMMON SENSE, easily seeing the prophesied eschatological events simply haven't yet happened. No rockes science needed to see that !

By a STRICT definition of preterism, which means "pertaining to the past", a FORM of "partial preterism" is true. But this isn't really part of the preterist doctrine. Let's look a little at Jesus' Olivet Discourse in Matt. 21:

Matt. 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

This cameta pass in 70 AD, ^ truly there's not one stone of the old temple left upon another. The Romans pried them apart, believing there was gold hidden between those stones.

matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many"

We know this has been going on ever since Jesus was physically here!

Matt. 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

This has come to pass. and , as science has progressed, the wars have become more intense as more=destructive weapons are developed, and more nations are finding fault with other nations. And such diseases as AIDS & ebola have come upon the scene.

Matt. 24:9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.

This has come to pass. In many nations, it's not safe to profess to be a Christian. And much of the world has come to accept sexual perversion of many sorts to be "normal", and "polotical correctness" has replaced Biblical morality. Yes, the "new normal" is quite godless!

But after those verses, Jesus' words are about still-future events, such as the "abomination of desolation" & the great trib. That "Discourse" in a brief overview of the course of events. Daniel, Paul, and later Jesus Himself again, in the revelation, go into more detail about the coming "beast" & his sidekick the false prophet, the actual events of the great trib, & the glory & majesty of Jesus' physical return.

Obviously, we are in the middle of the stream of these events, with the "grand finale" around the corner. To say they've already happened is JUST PLAIN SILLY! Wher EVIDENCE do these prets have to support that goofy view? ABSOLITELY NONE! The world has gone right on since 70 AD, same as it did in earlier times. Preterism is just another silly & false man-made doctrine,

 

[robycop3]

Part of the answer is in this post:
Justification by faith, like Preterism, not in the creeds. But Biblical

Also, about nine or ten years ago I led a Bible study on Hebrews. It lasted over a year. One man came to almost all the sessions. He was a full preterist. Because the study was an informal one there was plenty of discussion after I went through the week's study I had prepared. He politely asked questions that kept turning on red lights. At first I was shocked at his views, but it made me study the Bible more and more. I wanted to refute him but could not find the means in Scripture. It dawned on me that my position was at fault.

This is when I read The Parousia again.

During that study I started out Amill but ended up preterist.

Yrouble is, you likely didn't read a reputable world history book as well, and/or you've failed to heed Scripture LITERALLY.

There's simply NO historical evidence supporting preterism for the occurrence actual eschatological events.

NO coming of the "beast" - man of sin
NO new Jewish temple
NO marka the beast
NO abomination of desolation
NO great trib
And certainly, NO physical returna Jesus, seen by ALL!

Inother words, preterism is bankrupt !

 

[robycop3]

What really convinced me were the "this generation" passages. It just didn't make sense in the contexts that Jesus would be speaking of a race rather than a period of time. This coupled with His pronouncement in Matt. 16:

"27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

The lame explanations that were offered finally just appeared unsatisfactory.

"Some" is certainly the wrong word for a period of only 6 days. It is also the wrong word for 50 days (Pentecost). It would be embarrassingly trivial for our Lord to have meant that. No, a period of decades fits best. And that points to AD 70 as the only other option.

Added to this I noticed the connection between Matt. 5:18 and Luke 21

""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

"31“So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."

Notice in Matt. 5:18 that up until the very time that "all is accomplished" every single part of the Law is in force (every "jot and tittle"). This points to one Law-ending event, at the same time as all being accomplished. There is certainly no possibility of a gap of 2000 years.

In other words, those who insist that all is not yet accomplished must admit that we are still under the Law, in all of its force and minutiae.

Other clinchers were the 19 "in that Day" passages in Zechariah and how they were referenced in the New Testament, showing that all of these spoke about one period in time, the first century, not two disparate periods separate by almost 2000 years.

There were other clinchers, notably many of the passages from Hebrews which I was teaching through at the time, but this will do for now.

But you've missed the BIGGEST CLINCHER against preterism -

THE EVENTS SIMPLY HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED ! !

There's NOTHING you can substitute for the physical return of Jesus in the manner HE HIMSELF prophesied!

It simply HASN'T YET HAPPENED ! !

Only GOD can make something from nothing, but that's just what prets are trying to do. There's simpmy NO evidence supporting their view, but they're constantly, like KJVOs trying to invent evidence outta nothing.

TIME TO LET IT GO & REALIZE IT'S NOT TRUE!

 

[37818]

What really convinced me were the "this generation" passages. It just didn't make sense in the contexts that Jesus would be speaking of a race rather than a period of time. This coupled with His pronouncement in Matt. 16:

"27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

The lame explanations that were offered finally just appeared unsatisfactory.

"Some" is certainly the wrong word for a period of only 6 days. It is also the wrong word for 50 days (Pentecost). It would be embarrassingly trivial for our Lord to have meant that. No, a period of decades fits best. And that points to AD 70 as the only other option.

Added to this I noticed the connection between Matt. 5:18 and Luke 21

""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

"31“So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."

Notice in Matt. 5:18 that up until the very time that "all is accomplished" every single part of the Law is in force (every "jot and tittle"). This points to one Law-ending event, at the same time as all being accomplished. There is certainly no possibility of a gap of 2000 years.

In other words, those who insist that all is not yet accomplished must admit that we are still under the Law, in all of its force and minutiae.


There were other clinchers, notably many of the passages from Hebrews which I was teaching through at the time, but this will do for now.

Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1; & Luke 9:27 I have always understood Jesus was speaking of some of His disciples who would see His transfiguration. Matthew 17:1-9. Mark 9:2-8. Luke 9:28-30.

 

[robycop3]

Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1; & Luke 9:27 I have always understood Jesus was speaking of some of His disciples who would see His transfiguration. Matthew 17:1-9. Mark 9:2-8. Luke 9:28-30.

I believe that's correct, as He VERY-OBVIOUSLY has NOT returned yet in the manner He prophesied himself.

This also ties in with Jesus meaning "people or race" when He used the word "genea".

 

[Yeshua1]

Never. Neither will you. I will be one of the "spirits of just men made perfect".

Have you not read in I Corinthians 15 that we will be like the Lord from heaven.

"The first man is of the earth (ἐκ γῆς), earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (ἐξ οὐρανοῦ) ."

This passage is a continuation of verse 40: somata epigeia and somata epourania now become "ek ges" and "ex ouranou". This preposition (ek, ex) shows origin. Adam came from the earth, from the dust. This brings to mind the very passage from Genesis.

The "Second Adam" came from heaven. Note: In both cases, the origins determine the essence of who these two are - and (v. 48) the essence of their "followers".

Verse 49 says that "we shall [or "let us"] bear the image of the heavenly man" (the Second Adam, from heaven).

We shall be like Christ. This is Christlikeness, a biblical term.
And what is Christ like - according to this passage? He is like He was when He came to Earth. He is spiritual.
Was Christ fleshly before he came here to Earth? No. He was pure Spirit.
We - according to this passage - will also be like Him.
Pure spirit.

That may seem like an insufficient reward to some, but only because they are unwilling to "think outside the box" (of flesh).

As I wrote earlier, If the perfect God, the everlasting Trinity, had existed forever in spiritual (not physical) form why should it seem a bad thing, likewise, not to have physical bodies?

We shall exist in the same form of glorification as jesus Himself, which was His physical body being gloried, but it was a physical not a spiritual resurrection!
And we get that on the Second Coming day!

 

[Yeshua1]

With respect, that's not the way I see it, Tom.

" but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect," ( Hebrews 12:22-23 )

If you are one of Christ's sheep, you already ARE one of the spirits of just men made perfect.
Just two chapters before, He tells us how those spirits are made perfect ( in God's eyes )...by the blood of the Lamb:

" but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. " ( Hebrews 10:12-14 )

While we as believers are in the body, our spirit is perfect, while our flesh is not ( Romans 7:15-25, Galatians 5:17, 1 John 3:9 ).

We know from Scripture that flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God ( 1 Corinthians 15:50 ).
But I also see that we will have glorified bodies that the Lord gives us during the first resurrection ( 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 ), and I see this specifically when I read 1 Corinthians 15:51, when it says we will be changed.
If we are spirits without bodies, then the "change" has already taken place upon regeneration...we now have new spirits.

But there's more:

As I see it, there are spiritual bodies that are prepared for the believer...and it is at the first resurrection, when Christ sends forth His angels to gather the elect from the four winds ( Matthew 24:31 ).



Yes, but I see that there's more to be said from Scripture about how we will be like Him:

" For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:" ( 2 Corinthians 5:2-4)
From my perspective, the "house" spoken of here is our new, resurrected body.
The same as the Lord has:

" For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." ( Philippians 3:20-21 )

" And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body." ( Romans 8:23 )


As believers, I see first, the redemption of our souls, then at His coming, the redemption of our bodies.
We have two bodies...one "terrestrial" and one "celestial".



When I put all the pieces together, that's what I come up with.

We still are waiting for the Second coming, for the time when mortality take son immortality, and when we shall become as to our bodies as Jesus now is!

 

[37818]

I believe that's correct, as He VERY-OBVIOUSLY has NOT returned yet in the manner He prophesied himself.

This also ties in with Jesus meaning "people or race" when He used the word "genea".

I would have to disagree, in that I understand the generation in Matthew 24:34 refers to those who see the evens of Matthew 24:29; Matthew 24:33.

 

[Yeshua1]

I would have to disagree, in that I understand the generation in Matthew 24:34 refers to those who see the evens of Matthew 24:29; Matthew 24:33.

Those still alive when the future second coming happens will see those events...

 

[robycop3]

I would have to disagree, in that I understand the generation in Matthew 24:34 refers to those who see the evens of Matthew 24:29; Matthew 24:33.

That's a very-possible scenario!

But what's NOT possible is that He physically returned during the generation alive while He was here before.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's a very-possible scenario!

But what's NOT possible is that He physically returned during the generation alive while He was here before.

When jesus returns, it will be world wide known event, as history as we know it is changed forever, and not an invisible JW type event!

 

[asterisktom]

My view has been the same ever since I was saved Nov. 22, 1978.

You have believed the same thing for 40 years and 17 days. Haven't changed at all? Is that a good thing?

 

[asterisktom]

This also ties in with Jesus meaning "people or race" when He used the word "genea".

So, if this is true then, what?, the race will pass away when Christ comes? What about your 1000-year reign and the Jews sacrificing and circumcising, etc.?

 

[asterisktom]

Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1; & Luke 9:27 I have always understood Jesus was speaking of some of His disciples who would see His transfiguration. Matthew 17:1-9. Mark 9:2-8. Luke 9:28-30.

OK, 37818 (I feel as if I know you a little better. Can I just call you 3?), does it not seem strange for Jesus to say, in essence, "Some of you will be alive six days from now"?

 

[37818]

That's a very-possible scenario!

But what's NOT possible is that He physically returned during the generation alive while He was here before.

Simply, it had not happened.

 

[37818]

OK, 37818 (I feel as if I know you a little better. Can I just call you 3?), does it not seem strange for Jesus to say, in essence, "Some of you will be alive six days from now"?

That was not the essence what He said. The transfiguration is what Jesus was in fact referring to.

 

[robycop3]

You have believed the same thing for 40 years and 17 days. Haven't changed at all? Is that a good thing?

YERP!

What was false doctrine then is still false doctrine now!