Justification from everlasting !

[savedbymercy]

12

I was asking, how would a different view of this issue affect my life in following Christ NOW? Is it just a philisophical argument, or will I approach some aspect of my discipleship differently?

This thread is not about you,its about Justification from everlasting, and I am just witnessing to that fact in scripture. You either believe it or you do not.

 

[Dr. Walter]

let it go..

That is very good advice concerning your teaching - let it go!

 

[savedbymercy]

A word on God's Eternal Purpose !

Eph 3:11

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Its quite appropriate to say a word on God's Eternal Purpose when considering such a subject matter as Eternal Justification.

Most religionists fail in their understanding of God's Eternal Purpose or Decree. The Decree is Eternal [Timeless] but it is executed as well in time, however by it being Eternal in the Mind of God who is Eternal Deut 33:27;1 Tim 1:17, its completed from His Eternal Perspective ! An Eternal Being cannot but view things from an Eternal Perspective, since He is God. For God's realization of His Eternal Purpose is not dependent upon the succession of Time or neither is it in Him a process that needs fulfilling before He realizes the completion of it. Now it does for us, His creatures, but that's why we are not God, and can never be God, because our rational being's is Temporal. There is succession of God's Eternal Purpose only as it is revealed in Time to the creature. For us to think that God only realizes His Eternal Decree or Purpose as it is realized in time by us His creatures is to bring God down to our level as a Temporal Being, or it is exalting ourselves to be equal with Him. For God's realization of things are not governed by temporal means, such as time.

The fulfillment of God's Eternal Purpose in time, is not to bring realization of His Purpose to Himself, but to bring realization of it to His creatures in time Heb 6:17-18, He shews to the Heirs of Promise the immutability of His Counsel. God's Eternal Decree comprehends all things before time, throughout time and after time !

 

[Dr. Walter]

A word on God's Eternal Purpose !

Eph 3:11

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Its quite appropriate to say a word on God's Eternal Purpose when considering such a subject matter as Eternal Justification.

Most religionists fail in their understanding of God's Eternal Purpose or Decree. The Decree is Eternal [Timeless] but it is executed as well in time, however by it being Eternal in the Mind of God who is Eternal Deut 33:27;1 Tim 1:17, its completed from His Eternal Perspective ! An Eternal Being cannot but view things from an Eternal Perspective, since He is God. For God's realization of His Eternal Purpose is not dependent upon the succession of Time or neither is it in Him a process that needs fulfilling before He realizes the completion of it. Now it does for us, His creatures, but that's why we are not God, and can never be God, because our rational being's is Temporal. There is succession of God's Eternal Purpose only as it is revealed in Time to the creature. For us to think that God only realizes His Eternal Decree or Purpose as it is realized in time by us His creatures is to bring God down to our level as a Temporal Being, or it is exalting ourselves to be equal with Him. For God's realization of things are not governed by temporal means, such as time.

The fulfillment of God's Eternal Purpose in time, is not to bring realization of His Purpose to Himself, but to bring realization of it to His creatures in time Heb 6:17-18, He shews to the Heirs of Promise the immutability of His Counsel. God's Eternal Decree comprehends all things before time, throughout time and after time !

Nobody disagrees with what you have stated above! But that is not how you have defined it in the past. In the past, you went beyond mere "realization" to actualization! You went beyond mere "realization" to actual substantive existence!!

There is a great difference between "realization" and substantive actualization. The first exists only within the mind while the latter takes substantive reality outside the mind.

Your previous position made the "realization" of creation equal with actual substantive reality of creation before God spoke creation into existence!

Your previous position made the "realization" of the elect equal with actual substantive reality of the elect, including their justification, glorification, regeneration before they were give substantive reality or before they were created.

Now, you are making a distinction between what is IN THE MIND of God in regard to REALIZATION versus what is OUTSIDE HIS MIND in regard to actual substantive existence.

Congratulations for finally coming to see the light!

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

There is a great difference between "realization" and substantive actualization.

Not with God, thats your great error. The substantive actualization is for in time and the subjective experience for the elect in a time state. God's Being is Eternal, the physical Being of the Elect is not Eternal, their precreation status is due to being the seed and in union with their Head, whose Being as Mediator is from Everlasting !

Again, its folly for you to state that something is not actual to God, and Eternal Being,because its not actual to man a temporal creature. In fact its Blasphemous ! You have made God your equal !

 

[savedbymercy]

Justification before they believed !

The Justification of the Elect before they believed is Taught in Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Here all the elect or the church were Justified in their Head and Representative, when He rose from the dead after being delivered for their offences!

The YLT: who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

Christ resurrection from the dead was a testification or gives testimony that all for whom He died have been legally aquitted or discharged from all their sins. It was more than just an acquittal of Christ, because He was not delivered for His own offences, but the offences of others.

For Christ was their Surety, made so from Eternity in the Everlasting Covenant when He had their sins laid to His charge [imputation], by which He became legally liable by the Justice of God, and in due time, He gave Himself as an Offering for their sins, and when He arose from the dead, not as an private person, for He did not die as a private person for his own transgressions, but for the sins of the Many. So when He rose Justified and acquitted, then those for whom He died were also acquitted and Justified. For if He was delivered for their sins, then He was raised for their Justification, therefore all for whom Christ died and rose for , are Justified, even if they have not yet been born sinners, for God knows whose sins He bare , because it was for all those the Father hath given Him Jn 17:2. To deny this, one may as well deny Christ's resurrection from the dead. All this was accomplished [their Justification] before they believed a thing !

 

[Dr. Walter]

Justification before they believed !

The Justification of the Elect before they believed is Taught in Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Here all the elect or the church were Justified in their Head and Representative, when He rose from the dead after being delivered for their offences!

The YLT: who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

Christ resurrection from the dead was a testification or gives testimony that all for whom He died have been legally aquitted or discharged from all their sins. It was more than just an acquittal of Christ, because He was not delivered for His own offences, but the offences of others.

For Christ was their Surety, made so from Eternity in the Everlasting Covenant when He had their sins laid to His charge [imputation], by which He became legally liable by the Justice of God, and in due time, He gave Himself as an Offering for their sins, and when He arose from the dead, not as an private person, for He did not die as a private person for his own transgressions, but for the sins of the Many. So when He rose Justified and acquitted, then those for whom He died were also acquitted and Justified. For if He was delivered for their sins, then He was raised for their Justification, therefore all for whom Christ died and rose for , are Justified, even if they have not yet been born sinners, for God knows whose sins He bare , because it was for all those the Father hath given Him Jn 17:2. To deny this, one may as well deny Christ's resurrection from the dead. All this was accomplished [their Justification] before they believed a thing !

On this subject there is no reason for me to continue discussing this with you as you have no spiritual ability to preceive the obvious and if you cannot perceive the obvious it is because there is spiritual blindness that no amount of evidence or repetition will change.

 

[savedbymercy]

If one is Elect !

If one is of the Elect, they are Justified as Early as their Election was. Now Paul writes in Rom 8:33

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Election and Justification go hand in hand. Paul writes that it is God that Justifieth. Who ? Why the Elect, which is quite plain from the scripture, for this cannot be gainsaid, and from it we read that nothing can be laid to the Charge of God's Elect, but He has Justified them. Now how long has God viewed them as Chosen or Elect in Christ ? Eph 1:4

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

How long ? Before the foundation of the world, then scripture teaches the Elect before God, have been Justified before the foundation of the world.

Also it should be noted that scripture teaches that God viewed His Elect in Christ before the world began, and scripture plainly teaches that there is no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus Rom 8:1 and 2 Tim 1:9

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Not with God, thats your great error.

Your following clarifications condemn YOU to be in error not me! You do not even comprehend the terms you use. "Substantive actulatization" means actual existence of the substance IN MATERIAL or CONCRETE form. As long as something exists only IN the mind of God it has no MATERIAL or CONCRETE form OUTSIDE the mind of God. It takes the CREATIVE ACT of God to make His INWARD thought to be OUTWARD concrete/actual substantive material existence!

To say they are one and the same is foolish! To say that INWARD thought equals OUTWARD material existence even for God is foolish. For if that were the case then there would be no need for God to create anything in order to give it EXTERNAL concrete substantive material existence to God because it already would be so!

Again, its folly for you to state that something is not actual to God, and Eternal Being,because its not actual to man a temporal creature. In fact its Blasphemous ! You have made God your equal !

No one has denied it is actual to God in regard to THOUGHT as God conceives it be as though it WERE concrete. However, that does not mean that even to God it IS concrete/materialistically existent. If it IS already concrete/materialistically existent then God would not have to create it or anything else.

When something simple like this is denied it makes what should be simple and obvious more complex! YOu deny the simple and obivous. I guess denying the simple and obvious is what is called "stupidity."

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

However, that does not mean that even to God it IS concrete/materialistically existent.

Again, that is your great error. You are subjecting what is concrete and existing actually before God, who views things from the standpoint of His Eternity, and with man a creature of time.

 

[savedbymercy]

Who are the objects of Justification ?

If we read the sacred writings in Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

It cannot be denied that Paul points to God's Elect as being the Ones God Justifies !

Now Who shall lay any Charge upon God's Elect ? Mind You Paul was not Just speaking of God's Elect in his present, but even of those who were yet to be born in the future ! Who would be able to lay charges against them ? Would they be born sinners as other men ? Of course they would. Would they be under the same legal condemnation as other men ? No they would not ! Why ? Because they are God's Elect, and others were not. Thats a benefit of being one of God's Elect, that other men do not have.

So God's Elect can not have anything laid to their Charge, for God has Justified them. Now when did they become God's Elect ? Was it when they believed ? No, they were His Elect from everlasting, they were Chosen in Christ before the world began, and given grace in Him Eph 1:4;2 Tim 1:9. If this be True, then as His Elect then, they were ['declared not guilty] and declared Righteous at the same time.

Also it was by Electing Grace that they were placed in Christ, and reckoned as in Him before the foundation of the world, and if this be so, then they must be reckoned as Righteous, for there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

 

[savedbymercy]

The Beginning of Justification !

Justification has it's beginning [ If we can call it a beginning], not when a sinner believes or is converted, not even when Christ died upon the cross [in time] but before the world began in the Eternal Counsels of the God Head, in the Everlasting Covenant, at which time [ If we can call it time] many were chosen in Christ Jesus, The Only Eternally Begotten Son and Mediator, and they were Predestinated to the Adoption of Children see Eph 1:3-5 and 2 Tim 1:9, here it is stated that many in Christ were given Grace and Justification is freely by Grace Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. The word freely here is important. It is the greek word dorean and means undeservedly ! Not because of ones Faith or Repentance or anything they did or did not do, not even their accepting it, for they did not even exist yet except in God's Mind and Eternal Purpose.

Now this being True, The Elect were viewed by the God Head in Christ and having Union with Him from Everlasting, and this Eternal Union is the foundation of the communicating of all the spiritual blessings or saving benefits [from the fall] which they the elect receive in time, all for the Glory of God's Grace freely given them in Christ before the world began Eph 1:6; 2 Tim 1:9 !

 

[savedbymercy]

Not a inward work !

Justification is not a work that was wrought in the elect sinner [inwardly], for it is not the New Birth, however it is the fruit of it. In other words all whom are Justified from everlasting will in time be the recipients of the New Birth by the Spirit. This is when God causes the elect sinner to partake of a nature that corresponds with His declaration of them as Justified or Righteous because of the obedience of Christ. However Justification is just a legal term that defines the elect sinner as righteous in the Mind of God, even when the sinner is unrighteous in themselves and their manner of life. What they do or are doing or what they have not done has nothing to do with it, but it only has to do with what Christ done in their behalf, and the Father hath accepted it.

 

[savedbymercy]

Justification is legally and declaratively a right standing before God as Judge. One can be before God either Justified or condemned, there is no middle ground. One is either born into this world as Justified or condemned before God, though all are born sinners. These are both what is termed forensic words, having to do with a courtroom setting. Now reconciliation, propitiation, justification and remission of sins are all joined together and all are dealt with by the blood of Christ. His blood has satisfied God's Justice in all these area's. Everyone Christ died for, having been slain in the Eternal Purpose of God before the foundation of the world, are reconciled, propitiated, justified and have remission of sins when they are born in this world dead in Trespasses and sins. This is True only Legally before God without them knowing about it.