Justification from everlasting !

[savedbymercy]

dw

Your rationale is so irrational that it would be stupid to respond to it!

I know you will not respond to it because it exposes your folly and attempt to bring God down to the Level of His creature, which is blasphmy..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



I know you will not respond to it because it exposes your folly and attempt to bring God down to the Level of His creature, which is blasphmy..

You are wrong and the evidence that you are wrong is that you cannot answer the question I have asked you twice already because if you did try to answer it, it would expose your rationale for what it is - foolish!

But I will give you the question one more time:

Again, Ephesians 2:5 says that the elect are already "seated in heavenly places IN CHRIST" - so are you literally and actually and realistically already in heaven rather than on earth right now?????? You answer this question and you will have answered your own question.

 

[savedbymercy]

You are wrong and the evidence that you are wrong is that you cannot answer the question I have asked you twice already because if you did try to answer it, it would expose your rationale for what it is - foolish!

But I will give you the question one more time:

Again, Ephesians 2:5 says that the elect are already "seated in heavenly places IN CHRIST" - so are you literally and actually and realistically already in heaven rather than on earth right now?????? You answer this question and you will have answered your own question.

Your question is not even relevant, the issue is not about the experience of the individual. It's about how the Eternal God reckons things to be from an Eternal Perspective, His Perspective, not what one experiences.

Jeremiah did not have to experience being a Prophet himself[in time] before God declared Him a Prophet by His Divine Purpose.

So my experience is not relevant to this matter, thats arguing with you on the basis that God is on our Level..Get over it..

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your question is not even relevant, the issue is not about the experience of the individual. It's about how the Eternal God reckons things to be from an Eternal Perspective, His Perspective, not what one experiences.

Jeremiah did not have to experience being a Prophet himself[in time] before God declared Him a Prophet by His Divine Purpose.

So my experience is not relevant to this matter, thats arguing with you on the basis that God is on our Level..Get over it..

It is revelent because it speaks directly to your method of interpretation! Is it not a fact that you argue that Ephesians 1:4 demands we were literally and actually "in Christ" before the world began????????

Eph. 1:3....who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

Well, Ephesians 2:6 says that we are now seated "in Christ" in heavenly places also:

Eph. 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Both passages speak directly to the issue of the elect being blessed IN HEAVENLY PLACES "in Christ." The only difference is the former is "before the foundation of the world" and the latter is NOW!

So, do you believe that you are as much literally and actually in heaven NOW as your were BEFORE the world began "in Christ"?????? Answer this question and you answered your own question!

 

[12strings]

Let me say this:

[29]*For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30]*And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Romans 8:29-30)

The foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification in this chain have already happened to me...what about me being glorified? Have I already been glorified. God says I have. I believe this is saying that to God, my glorification is as good as done. It's as certain as if it has already happened. (this is a good argument for perseverance of the saints, by the way)...
...That's also how the Lamb could be "slain from the foundation of the world." As soon as God determined it would happen, It was certain.
I have not personally experienced this glorification yet, but I will.

Regarding Justifiation, these verses were written nearly 2,000 years before my salvation, but God's foreknowledge & predestination made the future calling and justification certain...

But here's the thing... I was not saved by Grace WITHOUT FAITH!
I was saved by grace THROUGH faith. (eph. 2:8-9) That is, When God ordained my justification, he also ordained the means through which it would happen: My personal Faith.

This "justified apart from faith" business is crazy! I hope this doesn't get pinned on Calvinists either because that's not what they believe.

-Andy



P.S. God says we have not because we ask not. Does this mean God doesn't have a plan to provide what I need? No, it means there are somethings that god has ordained to do from the foundation of the world that he will not do if I do not ask. (how does that work? good question) :wavey:

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

It is revelent because it speaks directly to your method of interpretation!

No its not relevant. I am not speaking about anything I will experience. I am speaking about How God views things from an Eternal Perspective, not me.

 

[savedbymercy]

12str

This "justified apart from faith" business is crazy!

When did God ever lay any charges of sin against His Elect ? Rom 8:33

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

When were they made accepted in the Beloved ? Eph 1:3-6


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[savedbymercy]

The Book of Life !

Eternal Justification is Taught in scripture by the fact that there is a book of Life with names inscribed in it from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8;17:8. These are the ones that God called or named in His Eternal Purpose Rom 8:30;2 Tim 1:9. In both of these verses the word called is the greek word kaleō and means:


to call

a) to call aloud, utter in a loud voice

b) to invite

2) to call i.e. to name, by name

a) to give a name to

to receive the name of, receive as a name

2) to give some name to one, call his name

b) to be called i.e. to bear a name or title (among men)

c) to salute one by name

Thats why its written that Jesus calls His own Sheep by Name Jn 10:3

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

See, they were named in the Lambs Book of Life before the foundation, and they are His Own !

The Book of Life is the Book of Election, it knows and names everyone Chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4. Its the names of all for whom Christ was made a Surety for in the Everlasting Covenant Heb 7:22;13:20.

It is the book of all whom have laid to their charge the Righteousness of their Surety Jer 23:6;33:16

In this book are the names of all for whom the Surety was slain for them from the foundation Rev 13:8. In this book are all the names of all whom God has Promised Eternal Life Titus 1:1-2


1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

1 Jn 2:25

25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

This was their Eternal Justification, their sins were never laid to their Charge, but unto Christ...

 

[12strings]

I believe in eternal justification!

I simply believe that if (when it comes to God's view of the world, not mine) my justification was real from the foundation of the world, then my faith was also real from the foundation of the world, since there are too many places in scripture that link faith, grace, righteousness and justification.

 

[Dr. Walter]

what about me being glorified? Have I already been glorified. God says I have. I believe this is saying that to God, my glorification is as good as done. It's as certain as if it has already happened

Andy,

I noticed you qualified your statement by the words "as if it were" and "as good as" done! Why didn't you says "it is done" and "it is already happened"?

Do you know the difference between a purpose and the fulfillment of a purpose?

I also beleive that all the things listed in Romans 8:28-30 are "as good as already done" and "as if they already happened" but I don't believe they "have already happened" and they "are done."

God purposed to create this universe BEFORE this universe was created. His Purpose was a good as IF it were already done before He did it because His purposes cannot fail. However, creation did not actually already exist BEFORE He created it because if it did then he would not have to create it at all.

This is the kind of argument you have entered into! SBG claims that we are already actually realistically glorified before the world began and thus we are NOW realistically and actually already glorified as we sin.

We are no more glorified realistically and actiually before the world began than we are right now neither were we realistically and actually justified before the world began any more than we are realistically and actually glorified then or now! Justification was purposed before the World began and it was purposed to be fulfilled when we beleived in the gospel.

Before responding to me, carefully examine the difference between what you actually said versus what I asked about what you could have said but didn't. Carefully examine what I said.

I will ask you the same thing, do you believe right NOW you are realiastically and actually in heaven - Eph. 2:6?

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



No its not relevant. I am not speaking about anything I will experience. I am speaking about How God views things from an Eternal Perspective, not me.

No you are not! You are demanding that what God's purposed before the world began had actual and real existence before the world began and before God carried out or fulfilled his purpose which is a logical contradiction.

If you were merely stating that what God has purposed IS AS GOOD AS completed in God's view - that is one thing I would not object to. However, that is not what you are saying!

What you are saying is that prior to your created existence you actually and really existed as a justified, regenerated, glorified reality. That is pure foolishness and pure irrationality.

 

[12strings]

Andy,

I noticed you qualified your statement by the words "as if it were" and "as good as" done! Why didn't you says "it is done" and "it is already happened"?

Do you know the difference between a purpose and the fulfillment of a purpose?

I also beleive that all the things listed in Romans 8:28-30 are "as good as already done" and "as if they already happened" but I don't believe they "have already happened" and they "are done."

I do know the difference, which is why I stated it as I did on purpose. I am not now glorified in heaven.

Regarding my most recent post before this, I realize I am somewhat playing both sides, saying that if in the mind of God, he says I am already justified and glorified, then in the mind of God, my faith has already been in action as well. I realize the two ways this can be taken, and I'm not sure I have a good answer. I am mostly on your side, though.

I will say that there is an unspoken question at play here regarding how God views and works in time. Do his actions always happen in time as we experience it? After all, he did create time! Or Does God view every moment in History and future as if it were the present, sitting outside the timeline looking down on it? I don't know that scriptures fully answer that question.

 

[savedbymercy]

12s

I believe in eternal justification!

It does not appear to me you do by a comment you made earlier.

I simply believe that if (when it comes to God's view of the world, not mine) my justification was real from the foundation of the world,

That's what I believe and that is what is True. God Justified His Elect from the foundation of the world, it was real Justification.

then my faith was also real from the foundation of the world,

I would not go that far. In a sense from God's perspective, yes the Faith of God's Elect is real, but for the elect experientially it is not yet come to past.

This must also be kept in Mind in this matter, the elect need not to exist physically For God to declare them Righteous in His Mind. Its a immanent act of His Mind to do so.

The Elect's existence is necessary for them to personally Trust in Christ.

But Justification before God does not necessitate ones Existence for it to be real and True before God. Now of course that makes it certain that this Eternal Declaration of God will be revealed to one in time, but what was revealed, existed before it was revealed, you understand what I am saying ?

Also if you do not mind respond to post 147 Thanks !

 

[Dr. Walter]

12s


I would not go that far. In a sense from God's perspective, yes the Faith of God's Elect is real, but for the elect experientially it is not yet come to past.

Why not go that far since you have in everything else?

This must also be kept in Mind in this matter, the elect need not to exist physically For God to declare them Righteous in His Mind.

They are no more justified "in His Mind" than they are regenerated or glorified "in His mind."

The Elect's existence is necessary for them to personally Trust in Christ.

It is just as necessary for the Elect to exist for them to be regenerated, justified and glorified. Simply because God PURPOSED it before the world began does not mean that Purpose has been fulfilled OUTSIDE of His mind!

The elect may be "redeemed" in His Mind before the world began but that does not mean redemption has occured OUTSIDE of His mind.

Reality and Existence occur OUTSIDE God's mind not INSIDE His Mind. Creation was purposed IN HIS MIND before creation occurred OUTSIDE His mind. IN His mind creation had no substantive reality only a purposed or planned reality because if it did have a substantive reality INSIDE His Mind then why even bother to create it OUTSIDE his mind UNLESS and EXCEPT that nothing really substantively exists within God's Mind and it is the FULFILLMENT outside His mind that gives it substantive reality and existence.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Why not go that far since you have in everything else?

Because for the tenth time, I am not speaking about what the elect experience, but God's Eternal Perspective..

They are no more justified "in His Mind" than they are regenerated or glorified "in His mind."

I agree, but thats different from what they experience. Again I am not speaking about what they experience. But I will say this about Justification, the Elect, even in time, before they are regenerated experientially, are already Justified before the foundation. The elect are even while they are enemies by nature, alienated from God, even then they are Reconciled to God by the death of His Son. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So being unregenerated does not make the elect not Justified and accepted in God's Favor ! We have been through this before, and you reject the Truth !

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Because for the tenth time, I am not speaking about what the elect experience, but God's Eternal Perspective..

Then, is Ephesians 2:6 your experience any more or less than Ephesians 1:4 is your experience???? If you were actually and realistically existent before the world began based on Ephesians 1:4 then why are you not equally actually and realistically existing NOW in heavenly places - thus seated NOW in heaven???? You tell me what difference Ephesians 2:6 has on your experience any more than Ephesians 1:4?

 

[12strings]

12str

When did God ever lay any charges of sin against His Elect ? Rom 8:33
33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

When were they made accepted in the Beloved ? Eph 1:3-6

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

I was asked to respond this post, I'm not sure exactly which part I'm supposed to respond to, but here goes...

I don't think it is contrary to scripture to say that God Justified and glorified me before I was born (Rom. 8:29-30)...AND that my justification (which you have spoken of as being declared righteous) is by grace and through faith. (Eph. 2:8-9). Also, Rom. 3: 22 - "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe."

I think Rom. 8:29-30 especially clarifies why your argument about the different eternal realties between Justification and faith are not correct.

You say a person who doesn't exist can be justified by God, but that a person who doesn't exist cannot have faith. That sounds right on the surface, but so does this:
"A person who doesn't exist can be justified by God, but cannot be glorified (made perfect in heaven is I think the accepted meaning of this term in this verse)." ...Yet the Bible says I was glorified before I was born.

I think to reconcile these, you have to say that Things in God's mind are worked out, certian, and possibly even real to Him before they occur in time.

As I said before:

I will say that there is an unspoken question at play here regarding how God views and works in time. Do his actions always happen in time as we experience it? After all, he did create time! Or Does God view every moment in History and future as if it were the present, sitting outside the timeline looking down on it? I don't know that scriptures fully answer that question.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yep! That is right!

I was asked to respond this post, I'm not sure exactly which part I'm supposed to respond to, but here goes...

I don't think it is contrary to scripture to say that God Justified and glorified me before I was born (Rom. 8:29-30)...AND that my justification (which you have spoken of as being declared righteous) is by grace and through faith. (Eph. 2:8-9). Also, Rom. 3: 22 - "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe."

I think Rom. 8:29-30 especially clarifies why your argument about the different eternal realties between Justification and faith are not correct.

You say a person who doesn't exist can be justified by God, but that a person who doesn't exist cannot have faith. That sounds right on the surface, but so does this:
"A person who doesn't exist can be justified by God, but cannot be glorified (made perfect in heaven is I think the accepted meaning of this term in this verse)." ...Yet the Bible says I was glorified before I was born.

I think to reconcile these, you have to say that Things in God's mind are worked out, certian, and possibly even real to Him before they occur in time.

As I said before:

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

It is just as necessary for the Elect to exist for them to be regenerated, justified and glorified

Thats a Lie ! The Elect are Justified before God even in time while they are unregenerated and enemies in their minds by wicked works !

 

[savedbymercy]

12string

I was asked to respond this post, I'm not sure exactly which part I'm supposed to respond to

Let me help you out. One question at a time. When did God lay any charges of sin and condemnation against His Elect in Light of this passage Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.