Justification from everlasting !

[Doubting Thomas]

dt:



I am very familiar with that verse, and there was a reason why I did not highlight that part of the verse, and that's because the first part needed to be emphasized as paul did. Now, Faith here means the object of Abraham's Faith was His Righteousness, which was Christ. Abraham had the Gospel Preached to Him Gal 3:8 and A Righteousness of God was revealed to Him, from Faith to Faith Rom 1:16-17

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Abraham through the Gospel preached to Him, Had it revealed to Him that The coming seed of His was going to die for his sins and that Righteousness was laid to His account, and so His Faith, The object of His Faith, which was Christ and His Righteousness had been laid to His account. Remember Faith is not a Justified mans righteousness, but Christ is. Faith reveals it !

1 Cor 1:30

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Before Abraham believed or obeyed anything, God revealed to Him the promised seed. Gen 12:1-3

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Abraham was Justified before God right then and there. Before that even, while He was a ungodly idolater with His house.

Not surprisingly, none of what you wrote here overthrows the fact that Paul wrote in Romans 4:5 that the believer's faith is accounted for righteousness.

 

[savedbymercy]

Not surprisingly, none of what you wrote here overthrows the fact that Paul wrote in Romans 4:5 that the believer's faith is accounted for righteousness.

Thats the difference between you and me, I believe Paul means that the object of the believers Faith [which is Christ] is accounted to him for Righteousness..and you believe that a man's Faith is his righteousness.

Isa 54:17

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Telling God whom he may and may not regenerate? God is not permitted to regenerate those who have never heard of Jesus?

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (KJV)

John 1:9 That [Jesus] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (KJV)

 

[webdog]

dt



It matters to me. Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I will add another one with that one. Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Nothing about Faith in this verse either ! But the Grace of God..

"we shall be saved...THROUGH HIM". By grace (shedding of Christ's blood) are you saved through faith (justification)

you have no business stating that free will is antichrist when you deny justification through faith, a major position of christendom...

 

[Doubting Thomas]

"we shall be saved...THROUGH HIM". By grace (shedding of Christ's blood) are you saved through faith (justification)

you have no business stating that free will is antichrist when you deny justification through faith, a major position of christendom...

Amen, brother! :applause:

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Thats the difference between you and me, I believe Paul means that the object of the believers Faith [which is Christ] is accounted to him for Righteousness..and you believe that a man's Faith is his righteousness.

Nope...a man's faith is accounted as righteousness because it is the means one is united to Christ (the object of one's faith) whose righteousness is then imputed (reckoned) to the believer.

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Cor 5:21

 

[savedbymercy]

What is Justification ?

What is Justification ? This word as used in scripture is never used in the physical sense as to produce an inward work in the sinner, but it is strictly forensic, and it is opposed not to our condition as sinful creatures and enmity towards God, but to a state of legal condemnation.

The greek word is dikaiōsis and means:

the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

The word is used twice in the NT:

Rom 4:25 ;Rom 5:18

It is a term of Law and utilized in Judicial affairs conducted in a court. Those whom Christ died for stand Justified, not guilty before God, solely on the principal or ground work of Christ Blood Rom 5:9 ! And that while they are in a state of impurity and sinfulness. See Rom 5:10

 

[Doubting Thomas]

What is Justification ?

What is Justification ? This word as used in scripture is never used in the physical sense as to produce an inward work in the sinner, but it is strictly forensic, and it is opposed not to our condition as sinful creatures and enmity towards God, but to a state of legal condemnation.

The greek word is dikaiōsis and means:

the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

The word is used twice in the NT:

Rom 4:25 ;Rom 5:18

It is a term of Law and utilized in Judicial affairs conducted in a court. Those whom Christ died for stand Justified, not guilty before God, solely on the principal or ground work of Christ Blood Rom 5:9 ! And that while they are in a state of impurity and sinfulness. See Rom 5:10

Once again, nothing you say here overthrows the Biblical truth (supported by numerous Scriptures) that the forensic declaration of "not guilty" by God, of imputing Christ righteousness to the believer, is to the one who has faith in Christ.

 

[savedbymercy]

Justification is a external act of God [upon the sinner] as a Judge, acting in a Court of Justice on guilty sinners, and not the internal work of the Spirit on the heart as in 2 Thess 2:13. God is acting upon the principal of Justice,according to His Law, He Justifies the Ungodly, and those be the Elect of God. This Justification is not based upon having been renewed by the Spirit as per Titus 3:5, nor because they have repented or believed, nor any such obedience of theirs, but solely on the Obedience and Blood of Christ. Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Justification is a external act of God [upon the sinner] as a Judge, acting in a Court of Justice on guilty sinners, and not the internal work of the Spirit on the heart as in 2 Thess 2:13. God is acting upon the principal of Justice,according to His Law, He Justifies the Ungodly, and those be the Elect of God. This Justification is not based upon having been renewed by the Spirit as per Titus 3:5, nor because they have repented or believed, nor any such obedience of theirs, but solely on the Obedience and Blood of Christ. Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

God's act as Judge of declaring sinners 'Not guilty' on the basis of Christ's objective meritorious work is only to those who are united to Christ by faith, as is demonstrated by dozens upon dozens of Scriptures (and I have mentioned nothing of the work of the Spirit in our sanctification, so your point here is a red herring). You continue to ignore or dismiss the numerous Scriptures that prove this, that justification is through faith--it is not subjectively applied to the sinner apart from it.

 

[savedbymercy]

dt:

You continue to ignore or dismiss the numerous Scriptures that prove this,

I have not once dismissed that one is Justified by Faith. I affirm that as well Rom 5:1

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

I have been accused of denying that one is Justified by Faith. I would like to see the quote of mine where I denied or opposed being Justified by Faith.

My Point is that Justification before God is on account,and the sole account of Christ Blood is also Taught by Scripture, and thats my presentation.

You showing me a multitude of verses stating that one is Justified by Faith has not disproved any of my points. You have yet to do that.

Now, as scripture states clearly that one is Justified by Faith Rom 5:1, it states Just as clearly that one is Justified by Grace or the blood of Christ.

Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


BY HIS BLOOD ! BY HIS GRACE !

Now if you do not accept that Fact, that is on you. What you are doing, you are opposing a Truth of scripture with another Truth of scripture, thats not good.

 

[savedbymercy]

wd:

you have no business stating that free will is antichrist when you deny justification through faith,

Now this is a false accusation. Can you please show us where I posted that I denied or opposed Justification by Faith !

 

[DHK]

wd:



Now this is a false accusation. Can you please show us where I posted that I denied or opposed Justification by Faith !

If justification is by faith, then whose faith is it?
When I was justified, made right in the sight of God, it was when I put my own faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I had the free will to do so.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

dt:



I have not once dismissed that one is Justified by Faith. I affirm that as well Rom 5:1

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

I have been accused of denying that one is Justified by Faith. I would like to see the quote of mine where I denied or opposed being Justified by Faith.

My Point is that Justification before God is on account,and the sole account of Christ Blood is also Taught by Scripture, and thats my presentation.

You showing me a multitude of verses stating that one is Justified by Faith has not disproved any of my points. You have yet to do that.

Now, as scripture states clearly that one is Justified by Faith Rom 5:1, it states Just as clearly that one is Justified by Grace or the blood of Christ.

Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


BY HIS BLOOD ! BY HIS GRACE !

Now if you do not accept that Fact, that is on you. What you are doing, you are opposing a Truth of scripture with another Truth of scripture, thats not good.

Well, you could have fooled me. Up until this point you have basically ignored the verses I've cited which teach that justfication is through faith in order to defend your position that this justification is somehow already automatically true of the (allegedly unconditional) elect from eternity even before they have faith.

Regarding your accusation that I am "opposing the Truth of scripture with another Truth of scripture", that's not true at all. Neither I nor anyone else here (with whom you are 'debating') has denied that the meritorious ground of our justification is based objective Work of Christ; we've only affirmed the equal Scriptural truth that his justification is applied to the sinner by faith. However, this accusation actually applies to you in spades. Though you (finally) say that you accept those verses which affirm justification through faith, you fail to comprehend the implication these have on the validity of the argument you've been trying to make--that justification is from everlasting for the (allegedly unconditional) elect, even before they have faith. Though you may not have explicitly rejected justification by faith, you implicitly reject that in the very argument you have been making, for when you assert that justification is true for the elect "from everlasting" and apart from belief, then you effectively render nonsensical and meaningless the affirmation that justification is through faith. So in separating the two, and then nullifying the truth of justification by faith by asserting that justification actually occurs irrespective of faith, you are the one who opposes Scripture to Scripture, and in fact overthrows the plain meaning of Scripture by the tradition of man.

The Apostles, however, as I have already pointed out, affirm and hold together both the objective work of Christ as our ground for justification AND the subjective application of the Christ's atonement to the believer through faith. For example...

"whom God set forth to be a propitiation by His blood, through faith.." Romans 3:25. Here Paul clearly links the objective act ("propitiation by His blood") with the subjective point of application ("through faith"). He reinforces this in the next verse: "...that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Christ". (*Notice it does NOT say "...whom God set forth to be a propitiation by His blood to the elect apart from faith", NOR "...that He might be just and the justifier of the unconditionally elect irrespective of faith---NO SUCH STATEMENTS CAN BE FOUND IN SCRIPTURE*)

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk:

When I was justified, made right in the sight of God, it was when I put my own faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thats according to you. Scripture does not state that. Paul never wrote, That he was justified before God when he put his own faith in Christ. Can you show us a testimony of that in scripture ?

I believe one is Justified by Faith before their own consciousness [Rom 5:1], not before God. They were Justified before God by the blood of Christ. Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And by Grace Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Now you are stating that you believe you are Justified before God because of something you did.

was when I put my own faith in the Lord Jesus Christ

I on the other hand believe that I was Justified before God when God saw the blood Christ He shed on my behalf. See the difference ?

 

[savedbymercy]

dt:

Well, you could have fooled me.

You fooled yourself into believing that. I never once dismissed or opposed Justification by Faith. I agree with it 100%. The Issue here is that you do not accept that Justification before God on the basis of His Grace apart from Faith, which the Bible Teaches. Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

and Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Paul even uses the word freely here ! The word is dōrean and means:

freely, undeservedly

It is also translated without a cause as in Jn 15:25

25But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Christ had no reason within Him why He was hated by these people.

The elect have no reason within themselves why God Justified them.

Now the reason in vs 24 of Rom 3 is not found in the Justified ones, but God's Grace based upon the redemption in Christ blood, which agrees with Rom 5:9.

Faith of the sinner is not involved in this aspect of Paul's teaching on this issue of Justification. If you don't believe it, then find ! But don't say I have rejected Justification by Faith because of it. Thats a false accusation.

 

[DHK]

dhk:
Thats according to you. Scripture does not state that. Paul never wrote, That he was justified before God when he put his own faith in Christ. Can you show us a testimony of that in scripture ?

Paul did write that. He wrote it in Eph.2:8,9 and in Romans 4:1-5. Perhaps we will get into those verses later.

I believe one is Justified by Faith before their own consciousness [Rom 5:1], not before God. They were Justified before God by the blood of Christ. Rom 5:9

Romans 5:1 does not say "their own consciousness." You are adding to the Word of God. You are inserting your own pre-conceived ideas to fit into your theology because you can't reconcile this verse with others in the Bible.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

His blood is how we are justified. Our faith is the means by which we are justified. You must take the entire Scripture into consideration not just your favorite hand picked verses.

And by Grace Titus 3:7
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Grace is how; faith is the means. Please learn.

Now you are stating that you believe you are Justified before God because of something you did.

Have you ever "done faith"? How? Faith is not something a person does. It is not a work. It is not something a person does. The Bible also commands us to hope. Have you ever "done hope"? What do you do when you hope? How many calories do you expend? what kind of work is it? Hope and faith are not works a person can do. Who pays you to hope and faith?

I on the other hand believe that I was Justified before God when God saw the blood Christ He shed on my behalf. See the difference ?

I see that you are one very confused person.
How do you reconcile John 3:36 with your position.
How do you know that God saw the blood Christ shed on your behalf? Maybe it was for some pigmy in Africa instead of you. How do you know it was shed for you? Are you a universalist? How do you know that you are one of the elect? Are you gnostic--have some special knowledge that Christ died especially for you? How do you know?

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk:

Paul did write that. He wrote it in Eph.2:8,9 and in Romans 4:1-5.

No where in those verses did paul say that he was Justified before God by placing his own faith in Christ.

Romans 5:1 does not say "their own consciousness."

It doesn't say by placing my own faith in Christ either.

His blood is how we are justified.

Thats my Point. Faith is how one comes to know it, not cause it.

Grace is how; faith is the means. Please learn.

Paul says by Grace ! Please read it more carefully. Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace,

And by His blood Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I see that you are one very confused person.

Yes, the difference is you believe you are Justified before God because of the something you did, I believe it was because of something Christ did.

How do you reconcile John 3:36 with your position.

I don't see it needing reconciliation no more as I see Justification by Faith and Justification by Grace needs reconciliation. You have failed to show me why my view is in contradiction with the scriptures you have presented.

 

[DHK]

You have failed to show me why my view is in contradiction with the scriptures you have presented.

Your view in in contradiction with the Scriptures in your unwillingness and total inability to reconcile John 3:36 with the Scriptures that you post.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

dt:

You fooled yourself into believing that. I never once dismissed or opposed Justification by Faith. I agree with it 100%.

When you assert that justification can occur to the (allegedly) unconditional elect apart from faith, then you render justification through faith for this same elect superfluous and completely unnecessary--if they are already justified, how can they be further justified by faith? Therefore, like it or not, you are opposing justification by faith whether you admit to it or not. So once again, it is you who is making the word of God void by your own tradition.

The Issue here is that you do not accept that Justification before God on the basis of His Grace apart from Faith, which the Bible Teaches.

And with this statement you just proved my point above. Any (alleged) justification before God apart from faith renders the Biblical teaching of justification through faith meaningless and nonsensical.

Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I'm sorry--where, pray tell, in this passage does it affirm that one is justified by grace apart from faith? Hmm?

and Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Again, please show me in this verse where exactly Paul affirms that one is supposedly "justified freely by His grace apart from faith through the redemption that is Christ Jesus"? The answer is...NOWHERE! In fact just two verses down (v26), Paul clearly affirms that God justifies "the one who has faith in Jesus." (*And I'll remind you again that in verse 25, Paul states God set forth Christ "as a propitiation by His blood, through faith", not apart from faith*)

Paul even uses the word freely here ! The word is dōrean and means:

freely, undeservedly

This has no bearing on your argument. Of course salvation by grace through faith is given to us undeservedly.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Seriously, with all due respect, you really need to quit with this whole line of argumentation before you embarrass yourself anymore.