Justification versus Eternal Redemption

[Alan Gross]

I have already explained that. Perhaps if you had read the OP you might understand: indoctrination.




?

Completely irrelevant to what I have said.




I hate to break it to you but...that would be you:







Who has said that? I can say one thing, that a majority of people on this forum affirm the Inspiration of Scripture.If you are going to rant, at least try to stick to the facts.




Certainly not, lol.




You have said that He was the Founder during HIs earthly ministry, so exactly when were they saved and when did they become the Church?

And why is it that you ignore the fact that no man had faith during the Law?


Galatians 3:23-25 King James Version (KJV)

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Why charge others with doubting the Inspiration of Scripture when Scripture means absolutely nothing to you? You are creating your own theology that cannot be supported by Scripture, and denying basic truths of Scripture itself.

?


Continued...

...

Now, since I have shown on numerous occasions that you teach the exact opposite of Scripture, it would seem you have judged yourself....

This is the problem.

You have to add to Scriptures to arrive at something and God has another meaning that you have skipped and already gone on to some other world.

That world DOES NOT CONSIDER anything except what you have Commanded.

Great.

For the sake of honesty that is not going to fly.

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus Talked right straight to Peter all about it.

The board Aministrator will have to shut us down, because we're plainly getting into, "you don't know Peter was Saved when he denied The Lord" territory and this just causes a back and forth, on WHY IN THE NAME OF GOD NOT?

Thus, talking about 'Church Truth' is irrelevant.

I can understand why you would want this discussion shut down. I would too if I were making such ridiculous statements, lol.

Not sure why it should be shut down. That you have called my salvation into question and now accused me of worshipping the Antichrist falls on you, not the thread.

I will no longer attempt to have a discussion with you unless you actually deal with the doctrinal content of the OP.


God bless.

 

[Alan Gross]

Now, since I have shown on numerous occasions that you teach the exact opposite of Scripture, it would seem you have judged yourself.




What twaddle.

You forget that it is Christ that is building the Church. Even before the Church was began GOd has always maintained a remnant:


Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.




On the contrary, the Lord is still glorified on this earth. You see...that is simply one of the ministries that the Comforter accomplishes:

John 16:14
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

And there are still those in the Church, the Body of Christ, who do the same:


John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)




If this weren't so sad it would almost be humorous. But here you are teaching the exact opposite of what Christ and the Word of GOd teaches and you want to charge others with "playing church?"

You don't even know how one becomes a member of the Body.


Continued...

There is no Teaching God Makes of 'the Body', as you mean it, in The Bible.

You would need to back up and not teach Satan's doctrines, if you were Called by God.

 

[Darrell C]

...

This is the problem.

You have to add to Scriptures to arrive at something and God has another meaning that you have skipped and already gone on to some other world.

That world DOES NOT CONSIDER anything except what you have Commanded.

Great.

For the sake of honesty that is not going to fly.

And I added to Scripture...where exactly? lol

Okay, as I said, if you can actually back something...anything...that you are saying with Scripture, whether it is doctrinal or another insult and false accusation, great. If not, then I guess that is about it.


God bless.

 

[Alan Gross]

But you just said He had already come:



You contradict yourself because your doctrine has nothing to do with Biblical Doctrine.




Smart move: not making ridiculous comments about this very clear teaching of Christ.

Who exactly will manifest themselves to the disciples "at that day?"




lol

Kind of forgetting the Church in the Wilderness, aren't you?


Acts 7:37-38 King James Version (KJV)

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


And just like the disciples of Christ...they were unbelievers:


Hebrews 3:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Your assertions are incorrect.


Continued...

↑.

The Holy Spirit is in these individuals, who are Saved, like all other saints throughout Time and The Spirit of Truth is Promised to be Given as Another Comfortor to Indwell The Lord Jesus' Kind of Organized Assembly,


You contradict yourself because your doctrine has nothing to do with Biblical Doctrine..

Nothing except The entire Bible.

 

[Alan Gross]

But you just said He had already come:



You contradict yourself because your doctrine has nothing to do with Biblical Doctrine.




Smart move: not making ridiculous comments about this very clear teaching of Christ.

Who exactly will manifest themselves to the disciples "at that day?"




lol

Kind of forgetting the Church in the Wilderness, aren't you?


Acts 7:37-38 King James Version (KJV)

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


And just like the disciples of Christ...they were unbelievers:


Hebrews 3:17-19 King James Version (KJV)

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Your assertions are incorrect.


Continued...

↑.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him

...
Smart move: not making ridiculous comments about this very clear teaching of Christ.

Who exactly will manifest themselves to the disciples "at that day?".

You don't know, so it is irrelevant to talk about 'Church Truth', to someone at this stage.

 

[Alan Gross]

I have already explained that. Perhaps if you had read the OP you might understand: indoctrination.




?

Completely irrelevant to what I have said.




I hate to break it to you but...that would be you:







Who has said that? I can say one thing, that a majority of people on this forum affirm the Inspiration of Scripture.If you are going to rant, at least try to stick to the facts.




Certainly not, lol.




You have said that He was the Founder during HIs earthly ministry, so exactly when were they saved and when did they become the Church?

And why is it that you ignore the fact that no man had faith during the Law?


Galatians 3:23-25 King James Version (KJV)

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Why charge others with doubting the Inspiration of Scripture when Scripture means absolutely nothing to you? You are creating your own theology that cannot be supported by Scripture, and denying basic truths of Scripture itself.

?


Continued...

↑..

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

These members of The Lord Jesus' Kind of Organized Assembly, gathered there listening to their Founder, Who Divinely Instituted her, were all Saved and as a Corporate ENTITY that Jesus Called, "My church" He Built, would be Baptized by Jesus with the Preserving, Supernatural Intendence, Governing, and Teaching Ministry of The Shaina Glory of God.
Click to expand...


You have said that He was the Founder during HIs earthly ministry, so exactly when were they saved and when did they become the Church?

And why is it that you ignore the fact that no man had faith during the Law?..

You don't know there is no such thing as 'the Church', so talking about that is as non-Biblical as cutting Hebrews 11 right out of God's Word.

 

[Alan Gross]

What ineffable twaddle.

Every member of the Church is added to the Church when they are saved. Hence...


Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


How can they be added if they were already members? And how is it that Cornelius isn't added until well after? Peter notes a distinction between then and "the beginning..."


Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

My friend, if the truths of Scripture make you angry (and don't deny it, it's pretty obvious), perhaps you should reconsider who it is you think is "playing church."


Continued...

↑..

Jesus Baptized His church, as a Divine Institution.
What ineffable twaddle.

Every member of the Church is added to the Church when they are saved. Hence.....

There is no Teaching, by God, of 'the Church', as you are using it to mean.

No one has ever been added to The churches discribed in The Bible, by 'Salvation'.

So, I' m not sure I'm going to name you as some authority on 'Salvation'.

 

[Alan Gross]

You act as though I havce denied there is one Body. Why the rant? Why not actually quopte what I said?




The One Body is the Church, which is comprised of every reconciled born again believer.




If you read Revelation 2-3 you will discover that there were those "assembling" who were in the churches but not in the Church.

"Overcoming" is euphemistic for being saved.




How can they "each be one body?" lol




I've already addressed this.




No, when people are water baptized they are literally baptized.

But water baptism isn't in view in this text, as already shown you, it is obvious in the text:


Ephesians 4:4-6 King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Now go back to John 14:15-23 and re-educate yourself. Overcome the indoctrination.

Note that there is one body because there is one Spirit, One God and Father Who is in all of us.

Is that not what Christ taught? That at a future time they would be eternally indwelt by the Spirit...and by the Father?


John 14:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


The key word here is...ONE.


Continued...

You would be advised to deny 'one body' since that is not a Bible Teaching, by God.

However, you are saying,

"Overcoming" is euphemistic for being saved."

as if 'something' is a euphemism for being saved.

There is nothing there as a "euphemism for being saved".

This is an indication and Testimony, again, of having no clear ability to show any understanding of Salvation.

No 'church', 'baptism', Pentecoast', or a Flamingo bird, have any relationship to Salvation.

Adding 'Salvation' to Bible Words associated with Saved people who then Worship God as He Commands Saved souls to do, is a confession of having no understanding of 'Salvation'.

The implication of that starts to bring into question The Divine Authority Present, or not, to make the Unilateral Pronouncements of Absolute Truth you continually add to The Bible.

That has to stop.

 

[Alan Gross]

I can understand why you would want this discussion shut down. I would too if I were making such ridiculous statements, lol.

Not sure why it should be shut down. That you have called my salvation into question and now accused me of worshipping the Antichrist falls on you, not the thread.

I will no longer attempt to have a discussion with you unless you actually deal with the doctrinal content of the OP.


God bless.

I don't care one way or another whether it's shut down.

My comments being censored may just go on.

Along with the perpetual damnable heresy.

That's not my call.

God Gave me Titus 3, if I want to follow Him, without concerning myself with futility.

That's why He Put it there.

If God Rejects someone and they can't seem to want to be able to be Taught, what have I got to with it, to start with?

It's like saying, "God Hates homosexuality and they hate Him".

What's that got to do with me?

I'm just God's witness and false teachers witness their thing for whoever.



The Board Rules Prohibit questioning the 'Salvation' of anyone, so what else is there to talk about?

Have you ever seen yourself Placed under The Category of "Totally Depraved", "without strength", wicked", "blind", Spiritually dead, and a helpless, hopeless sinner before God that has no say, or part, or participation, in 'Salvation', and that 'a church', 'baptism', 'The Baptism of The Holy Spirit', 'Pentecost', the 'Lord's Supper,' 'foot washing', 'gifts,' church discipline', or a 'choir have absolutely nothing in Heaven or on Earth to be a part of "Justification, which is Eternal Redemption"?

 

[George Antonios]

Depends on what justification you are speaking of. If you speak of Temporal Justification, it is the same as it was in Abraham's day, by belief, faith, and works, and in that order. If you are speaking of ETernal Justification through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus, then it is by...

...grace alone.

Faith is a result of God's grace, and is never something men attain to on their own. God must reveal spiritual truth that they can respond to, and both forms of justification are a result of the grace God shows when he gives men the opportunity to come into obedience to His will.




Same as above. Those saved in the Tribulation will be saved the same way men have always been saved:


Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.




Agreed.


God bless.

How do you define temporal VS eternal justification? Based on what verses do you make the distinction?

 

[Alan Gross]

How do you define temporal VS eternal justification? Based on what verses do you make the distinction?

The original poster, Darrell, placed
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)...

8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

...under the heading of, 'When Salvation is in view'.


I will place those Scriptures regarding

External Justification, before God, in purple,

and Temporal 'justification', before men, in orange.

Those are the two actual distinctions, to resolve the '500 year' controversy, although his handling of the Romans 3 passage shows these distinctions are not what Darrell meant.

To answer your question with what I believe,

External Justification, before God, in purple,

and Temporal 'justification', before men, in orange.


Darrell raised the controversy with,

Luke 18:11-14 King James Version (KJV)

11 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

i.e., "this man went down to his house justified", before men, as exhibiting behavior that may identify an individual as having Experienced The New Birth of The Holy Spirit, and therefore, his behavior exhibited a Spiritual Understanding of God he may very well possess.

Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another"

i.e., "but the doers of the law shall be justified", before men, as exhibiting behavior that may identify an individual as having Experienced The New Birth of The Holy Spirit, and therefore, his behavior exhibited a Spiritual Understanding of God he may very well possess.

&

James 2:24-25 King James Version (KJV)

24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

i.e., "by works a man is justified", before men, "Rahab the harlot justified by works", before men, as exhibiting behavior that may identify an individual as having Experienced The New Birth of The Holy Spirit, and therefore, his behavior exhibited a Spiritual Understanding of God he may very well possess.

James goes on to mention "not by faith only", in 24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only", to the same point as we see almost everywhere, today, regarding people claiming the Name, "Christian", as if that is another Gospel and gives them any association with Salvation, which it does not.

That is what James is saying, before men, in this Temporal Life, for someone to say, "I have Faith", means nothing if they have not seen their undone, hopeless, wretched, miserable, blind, and naked incapability and Total Impotent Natural State of Total Depravity and Been Convicted of their sins before God by The Holy Spirit, under The Preaching of The Word of God and The True Gospel of Jesus Christ's Death, Burial, and Resurrection from the Dead.

That soul that is then Convicted of the State of their sin and practice and habits of their sins before God, May Be Granted and Given Repentance of their sins and Faith Toward Jesus Christ, as a Born Again child of God and Believe.

But to say, "I have Faith", "I'm not a Calvinist", or "I prayed the sinner's prayer" ARE NOT SALVATION.

Do these individuals who bare False Witness and hate The Lord our God with all their heart, all their mind, all their strength, and all their soul SHOW THEY UNDERSTAND ANYTHING SPIRITUAL, before men, as exhibiting behavior that may identify that individual as having Experienced The New Birth of The Holy Spirit, and therefore, his behavior exhibited a Spiritual Understanding of God he may very well possess.

Or, does that individual not seem to be capable of decerning Spiritual things, and may have just thought and said, "I have Faith"?

And then, we see them pop up with an irrelevant Scripture that does not Teach or Describe HOW GOD SAVES SOULS?

Because they don't know.

And are not Saved?


...
con't

 

[Alan Gross]

The original poster, Darrell, placed
Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)...

8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

..

Then, Darrel adds: Paul makes a distinction between Jew and Gentile in Romans 2-3, but brings both under condemnation despite justification by obedience to the revealed will of God:


Romans 3:9-12 King James Version (KJV)

9 "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."



However, I would clarify the roles of the Romans Scriptures, below, differently than Darrell did, in the OP.

Romans 3:21-26 King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

I have these in purple, indicating they have to do with Salvation.

Believe it or not, and lost people certainly don't,

"the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"

says, "upon all them that believe", meaning?

"all them that believe".

"the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets",

"the righteousness of God" was seen in all of them who believed in The New Testament , just as they saw them in The Old Testament, when "there is none that doeth good, no, not one" of them, either, and NONE OF THEM KEPT ANY LAWS THAT RELATED TO THEIR SALVATION.

They were also Saved without any help from The Law, before God, because they were all condemned, just as all ( Jews and Gentiles).

So, How were Old Testament Saints Saved, without The Law, which is THE ADMINISTRATION of DEATH?

They were Saved How this passage says they were: "by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

New Testament Saints were Saved with the Law, other than to Show them their Absolute Dependence on God, the Same Way as Old Testament Saints, "by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference":

ETERNALLY LEGAL JUSTIFICATION of SIN, BEFORE GOD, WAS ACCOMPLISHED by JESUS CHRIST.

If any sinful Human Being is ever Declared Righteous, by God, it is because JESUS ROSE FROM THE GRAVE, AFTER OBTAINING ETERNAL JUSTIFICATION...

...and then.....?

GIVING Justification to the lost soul, in their Salvation, as described above.

They are a Natural Born Utterly Depraved worm, as a descendant of Adam, who was Created without sin and chose to sin, as The Federal Head and Representative of the entire Human Race;

They Had Been Chosen in Eternity Past, by "The Good Pleasure of God's Will", alone;

The soul is Shown Conviction, through The Law,

God Gives them Repentance of that Eternally Condemning sin

and God Gives them Faith in The Work of Jesus.

Jesus is The Savior.

Darrell went on to say,"

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

...

That is it.

...

This that Darrell wrote, I can not see, in The Bible.



Unless we maintain a proper context between the eternal and the temporal, one might find a contradiction between the righteousness mentioned here (which no man has) and the righteousness imputed to people like Abraham, Rahab, and the Publican sinner. It's a fact: Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God (concerning God's promises, in particular that his wife-beyond the age of bearing children-would produce him a son). So does v. 10 contradict that declaration of righteousness? Not at all, because Abraham was Justified according to his temporal existence...not on an eternal basis.


I would say, "the righteousness imputed to people
like Abraham, Rahab, and the Publican sinner was

External Justification, before God, in purple,



21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)...

8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

...

The 'controversy' is solved by the correct application to any particular Scripture, with regard to it referring to:

The External Justification, before God, OF WHAT GOD IS ABLE TO GIVE & IMPUTE TO AN UNDESERVING SINNER, BASED ON THE VICARIOUS DEATH and RESSURECTION of JESUS CHRIST

THAT GOD THE FATHER ACCEPTED FOR ALL HIS CHOSEN CHILDREN, in purple,

and Temporal 'justification', before men,
OF WHAT AN INDIVIDUAL CAN SEE WITH THEIR EYES (RELIGION), in orange.


HOW DO WE KNOW GOD ACCEPTED JESUS PAYMENT FOR OUR PERSONAL SIN?

If we have been Given Repentance Toward God, to Believe His Word and Faith in Jesus Christ,

GOD ACCEPTS JESUS' PAYMENT, BECAUSE JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

HOW DO WE KNOW? that someone who says they "have Faith" and is "a Christian" is Saved?

We don't.

The person involved knows and Eternal Life should be Important to them, enough to Search The Scripture, for in them you think you have Eternal Life.