Justification

[TCGreek]

1. Why do we feel it is necessary to complicate the sweet and wonderful Doctrine of Justification, without which, there is no gospel.

2. Paul preached a simple doctrine of justification, ""Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:38, 39, NIV, emphasis mine).

a. Paul preached that Justification is the forgiveness of sins.

b. Previously, our sins separated us from God. Justification is the releasing of those sins that separated because the propitiation of Christ (Rom 3:23-26).

3. It is that simple.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

However if you are going to leave eternal life in the realm of salvation by grace through faith you have just placed a contradiction on Scripture, because dying to self is works. This is talking about works not a one-time faith in the Substitute.

really is faith works in your view?

 

[J. Jump]

really is faith works in your view?

No it's not. That's my whole point. Amy is addressing a text that calls for works, not faith. Therefore the context is not everlasting life. The context is aionios life which is the life that Jesus came to offer. But this aionios life is not based on you being a hearer, but a doer as James puts it. That's works.

If you want life you are going to have to do something. You are going to have to die to self. That's works.

 

[TCGreek]

The life we lose is the life we live right now that follows the desires of the flesh. We gain eternal life by putting our faith in Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit who give us new desires to please God.


1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural or fleshly man (unsaved) does not care what God desires. But, the born again man has the conviction of the Holy Spirit (because He lives in him) and receives (understands) the spiritual things of God.

1. Amy, I think this is what the Scripture is saying. At the foot of the cross of Christ, there are only two types of people: the unregenerate and the regenerate.

2. I do not see why when Paul makes these dichotomies that it must be Christians he is speaking about and not the unsaved.

3. Yes, his letters are addressed to saints, but along the way he makes reference even to the unsaved. A careful reading of Paul will undoubtedly reveal this.

 

[Amy.G]

However if you are going to leave eternal life in the realm of salvation by grace through faith you have just placed a contradiction on Scripture, because dying to self is works. This is talking about works not a one-time faith in the Substitute

Well, if dying to self is a work, I will be rewarded for it, as a believer standing at the JSOC.

This is not talking about unsaved as in destined for the lake of fire forever and ever and ever.

This is talkinga about the people that aren't dying to self. These are forever and ever and ever saved individuals that are walking by the flesh and not by the Spirit. If you are walking by the flesh you do not care what God desires.

I believe the "natural" man the Paul is referring to here is an unsaved man, because he goes on to say that he cannot understand the things of God because he does not have the Spirit of God.

Just because a child of God is convicted of the Holy Spirit does not mean they are going to heed that conviction. And the more we rebel the quiter that conviction becomes until God will give you over to the lusts of your mind and death may not be far behind that.

That's right. The child of God is convicted and understands the things of God because he has the Spirit of God in him. He may disobey, but it's not because he had no understanding of God.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

No it's not. That's my whole point. Amy is addressing a text that calls for works, not faith. Therefore the context is not everlasting life. The context is aionios life which is the life that Jesus came to offer. But this aionios life is not based on you being a hearer, but a doer as James puts it. That's works.

If you want life you are going to have to do something. You are going to have to die to self. That's works.

I'll address the jesus came to offer thing later but why is faith not works and repentence is?

 

[Amy.G]

1. Amy, I think this is what the Scripture is saying. At the foot of the cross of Christ, there are only two types of people: the unregenerate and the regenerate.

2. I do not see why when Paul makes these dichotomies that it must be Christians he is speaking about and not the unsaved.

3. Yes, his letters are addressed to saints, but along the way he makes reference even to the unsaved. A careful reading of Paul will undoubtedly reveal this.

Isn't this what I said? I thought so. I agree that sometimes Paul is referring to the unsaved calling him the "natural" man.

I posted that scripture for JJ because he believes that even though a person has received the Holy Spirit, they may have NO change in their lives. He usually brings that up whenever I talk about the Holy Spirit.

I thought this was a good reference to the fact that there is a change.

 

[TCGreek]

Isn't this what I said? I thought so. I agree that sometimes Paul is referring to the unsaved calling him the "natural" man.

I posted that scripture for JJ because he believes that even though a person has received the Holy Spirit, they may have NO change in their lives. He usually brings that up whenever I talk about the Holy Spirit.

I thought this was a good reference to the fact that there is a change.

1. I'm not in disagreement with you, for I'm only expressing the same.

2. I find that these matters are simple and not difficult, but they become complicated when we wish to promote "another" view of things.

 

[Amy.G]

1. I'm not in disagreement with you, for I'm only expressing the same.

2. I find that these matters are simple and not difficult, but they becoming complicated when we wish to promote "another" view of things.

Sorry for the miscommunication.
Yes, you are correct in that these matters of salvation, justification and sanctification are very simple and it's a shame when people try to complicate it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

An unsaved person is already dead.

Spiritually yes, but they will die physically and eternally. You are confusing your kinds of death.

 

[Cutter]

Exactly, Pastor Larry, but you can't get JJ and HoG to understand that.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Spiritually yes, but they will die physically and eternally. You are confusing your kinds of death.

I'm not the one confusing them.

Either this is talking about a physical perishing in which case we're all going to perish, or it's talking about spiritually, in which case an unsaved person doesn't have a life to lose.

We can't mix-n-match 'em to suit our whims.

 

[Cutter]

There are Christians only in the narrow way.
There are lost people only in the broad way. The destruction they suffer is the total loss like those that choose to build upon the sand as in Matthew 7:27. Notice these are the ones that heard but failed to do the teachings of Christ, but the one that heard and did his teachings, building upon the rock, which is Jesus Christ was saved. If He is not what you are building on you are not saved. If you are not in His way, the narrow way, you are not saved.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Either this is talking about a physical perishing in which case we're all going to perish, or it's talking about spiritually, in which case an unsaved person doesn't have a life to lose.

You left out what it is actually talking about and that is eternal perishing.

 

[mmetts]

You left out what it is actually talking about and that is eternal perishing.

<3 u Larry!:wavey:

 

[J. Jump]

I believe the "natural" man the Paul is referring to here is an unsaved man, because he goes on to say that he cannot understand the things of God because he does not have the Spirit of God.

Sorry but that text does not say that the natural man "does not have the Spirit of God."

Again you are adding to what the text says.

 

[Hope of Glory]

You left out what it is actually talking about and that is eternal perishing.

You have yet to answer how someone who doesn't have a life can lose it.

Can you lose a $20 bill that you've never seen?

 

[mmetts]

You have yet to answer how someone who doesn't have a life can lose it.

Can you lose a $20 bill that you've never seen?

2 things are eternal.

The Word of God and God Himself.

And the souls of men.

 

[TCGreek]

You have yet to answer how someone who doesn't have a life can lose it.

Can you lose a $20 bill that you've never seen?

1. Every person born into this world was born with life. That life was meant to be engulfed with the things of God. But because of our sin-nature, unless God does a work in our hearts, we will continue to rebel against him and forfeit our souls.

2. The life that will be lost, is that life which should have been enjoyed in the presence of God for all eternity. Instead, that life will be spent in eternal damnation (2 Thess.1:9).

3. To argue that a person must first possess life to lose it, is correct. But we must clarify ourselves in this world of deconstructionalism: What life are they losing? And what is meant by losing?

4. I submit that the life they are losing is that life which should have been spent with God in eternity but was overcome by sin and continued in sin. And the losing refers to life spent outside of the presence of God in eternal destrution.

a. It would be folly for me to conclude that a life that should have been spent in the sweet presence of God for all eternity but spent in eternal destruction is not considered as losing.

b. Losing one's life in eternal destruction must not lead to annihilationism.

 

[Amy.G]

Sorry but that text does not say that the natural man "does not have the Spirit of God."

Again you are adding to what the text says.

It most certainly does say the natural man does not have the Spirit of God. Then "natural" man is ruled by his sinful nature and the things of God are foolishness to him. He cannot understand spiritual things because they are discerned through the Spirit of God. We (the saved) have the mind of Christ. The unsaved do not have the mind of Christ.


1Cr 2:9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND {which} HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
1Cr 2:10 For to us God revealed {them} through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
1Cr 2:11 For who among men knows the {thoughts} of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the {thoughts} of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
1Cr 2:13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.}
1Cr 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1Cr 2:15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
1Cr 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

Who is us and we in this passage compared to the natural man?

Paul includes himself in "us" and "we". Was he a "natural" man?