Justification

[J. Jump]

They are speaking of the saved and the unsaved.

1Cr 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Another perfect example of you quoting Scripture that says something completely different than what you do.

Notice you say this is about the "saved" and the unsaved. Notice what the verse says. "us" who are "being saved." Wonder why saved folks are "being saved?"

Those that are perishing are those that have life. The eternally unsaved do not have life. They are dead in trespasses and sin. Dead people don't perish. You can't be any deader than dead .

 

[J. Jump]

1. You have made no effort to answer my use of the different Greek words.

Because the context doesn't support the case you are trying to make. Go backwards and forwards and the context is not everlasting life. Just some more examples.

the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

Notice how he speaks of the crucifixion. Everlasting life is by faith in the Substitute who died in your place. The "Lamb" of God. But that's not how Paul is addressing the scene. He's talking about the Lord of glory being killed by the rulers of the Jews.

He's not talking about a Substitutionary death. He's talking about the King.

Then notice how he talks about the natural man with natural being an adjective:

1) of or belonging to breath
a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
b) governed by breath
1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

Then in the very next verse he talks about the spiritual man with spiritual being an adjective:

1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
3) belonging to the Divine Spirit
a) of God the Holy Spirit
b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing

So here we see exactly what I have been saying someone that is "governed" by the flesh is not able to understand and for that matter doesn't even want to understand the things of God. However a person that is governened by the Spirit can and will want to understand the things of God.

An unsaved person doesn't even have the capability where as a natural man has the capability just not the desire.

 

[Hope of Glory]

To the unsaved (those who are perishing) spiritual things are foolishness.

So, just how does a person without a life to lose still lose it?

How would you lose a $20 bill that you've never seen?

 

[TCGreek]

Because the context doesn't support the case you are trying to make. Go backwards and forwards and the context is not everlasting life. Just some more examples.

the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

Notice how he speaks of the crucifixion. Everlasting life is by faith in the Substitute who died in your place. The "Lamb" of God. But that's not how Paul is addressing the scene. He's talking about the Lord of glory being killed by the rulers of the Jews.

He's not talking about a Substitutionary death. He's talking about the King.

Then notice how he talks about the natural man with natural being an adjective:

1) of or belonging to breath
a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
b) governed by breath
1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

Then in the very next verse he talks about the spiritual man with spiritual being an adjective:

1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
3) belonging to the Divine Spirit
a) of God the Holy Spirit
b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing

So here we see exactly what I have been saying someone that is "governed" by the flesh is not able to understand and for that matter doesn't even want to understand the things of God. However a person that is governened by the Spirit can and will want to understand the things of God.

An unsaved person doesn't even have the capability where as a natural man has the capability just not the desire.

1. I have mentioned nothing about everlasting life in my post. Where did you get that from?

2. Once again, you have sidestepped my use of the Greek, claiming that it has nothing to do with the context. I wonder how do you understand the word context.

3. If I were to take your advice and go forward, keeping in mind there were no chapters and verse division, it would take me right to 1 Cor 3, wish you are trying to rule out.

4. Your appeal the plain reading of 1Cor 2:14 is really not working for you, because you have found yourself doing more explaining than I thought.

 

[TCGreek]

So, just how does a person without a life to lose still lose it?

How would you lose a $20 bill that you've never seen?

1. Every person born into this world was born with life. That life was meant to be engulfed with the things of God. But because of our sin-nature, unless God does a work in our hearts, we will continue to rebel against him and forfeit our souls.

2. The life that will be lost, is that life which should have been enjoyed in the presence of God for all eternity. Instead, that life will be spent in eternal damnation (2 Thess.1:9).

3. To argue that a person must first possess life to lose it, is correct. But we must clarify ourselves in this world of deconstructionalism: What life are they losing? And what is meant by losing?

4. I submit that the life they are losing is that life which should have been spent with God in eternity but was overcome by sin and continued in sin. And the losing refers to life spent outside of the presence of God in eternal destrution.

a. It would be folly for me to conclude that a life that should have been spent in the sweet presence of God for all eternity but spent in eternal destruction is not considered as losing.

b. Losing one's life in eternal destruction must not lead to annihilationism.

 

[psalms109:31]

Parable

There was a man at work who loved Jesus and another who made fun of him. Me being a young Christain was thinking there was no way this man who made fun of this guy who was walking with Jesus could be changed.

Day by day the man who was making fun of the Christain was changing. I don't know the communication between these two was, but the one who was making fun of the Christain became a Christain.

It maybe foolishness to them but our lives is to show the world that the foolishness of what is being preached, to those who are being saved by it , it is the power of God to savation.

 

[Hope of Glory]

So, when the woman lost the silver that she swept her house for, it was just silver that she had the potential to have, and it magically appeared?

"He lost the life that should have been enjoyed."

So, can I take a write-off on my taxes for a million dollars that I never had, but that I should have been able to enjoy?

 

[mmetts]

So, when the woman lost the silver that she swept her house for, it was just silver that she had the potential to have, and it magically appeared?

"He lost the life that should have been enjoyed."

So, can I take a write-off on my taxes for a million dollars that I never had, but that I should have been able to enjoy?

Read about God's righteous requirements in Romans HoG.
The eternal death is a punishment. You've really confused me as to what exactly you are arguing at this point.

...because through Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

 

[mmetts]

"He lost the life that should have been enjoyed."

Almost correct. I'd actually replace "should have been" with "has to be".

He has to lose his life, because he did not meet the righteous requirement. Or, he lost the life that he had to enjoy.

 

[TCGreek]

So, when the woman lost the silver that she swept her house for, it was just silver that she had the potential to have, and it magically appeared?

"He lost the life that should have been enjoyed."

So, can I take a write-off on my taxes for a million dollars that I never had, but that I should have been able to enjoy?

1. Instead of isolating a fraction of my reply, you should reread it again before creating a strawman.

2. Please, reread.

 

[Hope of Glory]

When you build a three legged stool with a weak leg, the stool will be weak.

To claim that you can lose something that you don't have makes no sense.

I cannot lose a million dollars, because I don't have it to lose. It doesn't matter if "I should have had it".

An unsaved person is already dead. They don't have a life to lose.

Only a saved person, one who has believed on the Lord Jesus and is born from above, has a life to lose. Like the prodigal son: He had an inheritance and he squandered it. He was still a son, but he was perishing.

So, if this life that we're talking about is being saved, then you can lose your spiritual salvation, but that would contradict other places in the Bible.

You claim that he's losing something that he doesn't have to lose it.

I claim that he's losing something that he has, but since it cannot be his spiritual salvation, it's something else. (And I have shown what that something is.)

 

[TCGreek]

When you build a three legged stool with a weak leg, the stool will be weak.

To claim that you can lose something that you don't have makes no sense.

I cannot lose a million dollars, because I don't have it to lose. It doesn't matter if "I should have had it".

An unsaved person is already dead. They don't have a life to lose.

Only a saved person, one who has believed on the Lord Jesus and is born from above, has a life to lose. Like the prodigal son: He had an inheritance and he squandered it. He was still a son, but he was perishing.

So, if this life that we're talking about is being saved, then you can lose your spiritual salvation, but that would contradict other places in the Bible.

You claim that he's losing something that he doesn't have to lose it.

I claim that he's losing something that he has, but since it cannot be his spiritual salvation, it's something else. (And I have shown what that something is.)

1. Jesus seems to think that they had life already (Mark 8:34-38).

2. Notice that he addressed his disciples and the crowd.

3. You will have to demonstrate that all in the crowd were already saved and therefore had a life to lose, according to your understanding of "a life to lose."

 

[mmetts]

When you build a three legged stool with a weak leg, the stool will be weak.

To claim that you can lose something that you don't have makes no sense.

I cannot lose a million dollars, because I don't have it to lose. It doesn't matter if "I should have had it".

An unsaved person is already dead. They don't have a life to lose.

Only a saved person, one who has believed on the Lord Jesus and is born from above, has a life to lose. Like the prodigal son: He had an inheritance and he squandered it. He was still a son, but he was perishing.

So, if this life that we're talking about is being saved, then you can lose your spiritual salvation, but that would contradict other places in the Bible.

You claim that he's losing something that he doesn't have to lose it.

I claim that he's losing something that he has, but since it cannot be his spiritual salvation, it's something else. (And I have shown what that something is.)

That's not accurate. What book are you reading? I think you are getting this from another book besides the Bible. What do we need Christ for? Why atonement? Why propitiation? Why a promised Messiah to take away the sins of the world? Why do I read about God giving me the breath of life in Genesis 2, even though I am dead in my trespasses - and by the way God didn't build a "weak leg", God saw that His creation was good; man fell. HoG, you can't be serious! Why do I need the book of Romans? Why is eternal life a gift, if I have another option to live as pleasurably as I want only to suffer a physical death? I need Christ because there is an eternal death, because God is true, and has to be glorified, and that is why Christ is a gift.

An unsaved person is already dead

The person is dead only due to their trespasses - a result of their fallen nature. They are still an eternal soul, and eternally doomed, unless they meet the righteous requirements of God found in Christ for a substitutionary atonement, that they may pass from death (the death due them for their lack of glorification to God, whom has to be glorified because He is true) into life.

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Amy.G]

Another perfect example of you quoting Scripture that says something completely different than what you do.

Notice you say this is about the "saved" and the unsaved. Notice what the verse says. "us" who are "being saved." Wonder why saved folks are "being saved?"

Those that are perishing are those that have life. The eternally unsaved do not have life. They are dead in trespasses and sin. Dead people don't perish. You can't be any deader than dead .

You seem to be confused. Saved people don't perish.

Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
Jhn 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Jhn 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

If you are perishing you are not one of the sheep that hears the Savior's voice.

The book of John is one of the most comforting books of the Bible. John makes it clear that we can be assured of our salvation and feel safe in our Father's arms. It is a shame that you are trying to corrupt that.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The person is dead only due to their trespasses - a result of their fallen nature. They are still an eternal soul, and eternally doomed, unless they meet the righteous requirements of God found in Christ for a substitutionary atonement, that they may pass from death (the death due them for their lack of glorification to God, whom has to be glorified because He is true) into life.

You are approaching from the standpoint that salvation is a future item to be received as a gift from God by a sinner based on that sinner's response, and so the why's on the first part of your post. No offense intended.

Salvation is not a future gift by God to the sinner.

It is a present possession of the sinner who is among those whom He calls His sheep and have always called His sheep.
Paul states very clearly that the gospel "brings life and immortality to light". Now how can something which is not there be brought to light ? And why does it have to be brought to light ? Because, I believe, its possessor had no idea at all he had it already.

Before the cross, salvation was possessed by His people by virtue of Christ's being the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, His blood shed from the foundation of the world.

After the cross, salvation was a reality to His people, in time, through the Blood of Calvary's Lamb. Those who are His born after His time here on earth are already redeemed, but will, by virtue of their being of the fallen race of Adam, have to be regenerated, which is a work of the third Person of the Trinity in the plan of salvation.

Only they will be regenerated, because only they have been redeemed to the Father by the Son, regardless of their geographical or chronological circumstances, and one may add, theological and credal.

Only they can perish in the sense in which Jehovah God used the word "perish" in the Scripture "my people perish for lack of knowledge", notice, lack, and not absence, or ignorance, tie up these truths and principles and you get a better understanding of Hebrews 6 which was being discussed elsewhere.

Those whom God passed by and left to their own sins never have, and never will have, spiritual life, and therefore are already dead, though they may be physically vibrant, educated, agile, and moving about.

 

[mmetts]

You are approaching from the standpoint that salvation is a future item to be received as a gift from God by a sinner based on that sinner's response, and so the why's on the first part of your post. No offense intended.

Salvation is not a future gift by God to the sinner.

It is a present possession of the sinner who is among those whom He calls His sheep and have always called His sheep.
Paul states very clearly that the gospel "brings life and immortality to light". Now how can something which is not there be brought to light ? And why does it have to be brought to light ? Because, I believe, its possessor had no idea at all he had it already.

Before the cross, salvation was possessed by His people by virtue of Christ's being the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, His blood shed from the foundation of the world.

After the cross, salvation was a reality to His people, in time, through the Blood of Calvary's Lamb. Those who are His born after His time here on earth are already redeemed, but will, by virtue of their being of the fallen race of Adam, have to be regenerated, which is a work of the third Person of the Trinity in the plan of salvation.

Only they will be regenerated, because only they have been redeemed to the Father by the Son, regardless of their geographical or chronological circumstances, and one may add, theological and credal.

Only they can perish in the sense in which Jehovah God used the word "perish" in the Scripture "my people perish for lack of knowledge", notice, lack, and not absence, or ignorance, tie up these truths and principles and you get a better understanding of Hebrews 6 which was being discussed elsewhere.

Those whom God passed by and left to their own sins never have, and never will have, spiritual life, and therefore are already dead, though they may be physically vibrant, educated, agile, and moving about.

Thank you Pinoy. It was not a reference to salvation as a future happening but redemption. Let's not over-realize our eschatology here, we are still on this side of Heaven.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

I see alot of converstion and commentary and no scripture.

1 Peter1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant F1 mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

We have be regenerated(begotten us again) to a secure promise(living hope) by the ressurrection of Jesus Christ (His death burial and resurrection providing us eternal life) from the dead (Christs death was overcome by God the Father)

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

To an inheritance ( eternal salvation left to us by Christ who dies for us) incorruptible (the eternal salvation cannot be destroyed) undefiled (neither can it be impaired) and that fadeth not away ( a perpetual promise not to be broken) reserved in heaven for you ( our promise of future redemption is signified with a place reserved in heaven for us)

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Who ( we ) are kept by the power of God (our eternal salvation is placed or deposited securley in God's soveriegn control for safe keeping) through faith ( believing in, trusting in, God) unto salvation (eternal salvation) ready to be revealed ( to see salvation in its fulness) in the last time (at Christs return)

We have not seen the fullness of our salvation as salvation includes a fully redeemed body and soul.

 

[J. Jump]

3. You will have to demonstrate that all in the crowd were already saved and therefore had a life to lose, according to your understanding of "a life to lose."

Ah yes here we see a CRITICAL point that I have pointed out in the past. MUCH understanding, especially in the gospel accounts, is based on an understanding of OT salvation and how folks were saved in the OT.

You are coming to the text of the NT with the assumption that all are destined to the lake of fire for ever and ever and ever (unsaved) until they are saved by Jesus. But there is nothing in the text that suggests that.

Jesus came with a spiritual message of a spiritual kingdom. He could not offer that to a spiritually dead people. They were spiritually alive, but spiritually blind. Blindness does not equate to death.

Israelites were given the sacrificial system to point toward the Ultimate Sacrifice of the Lamb of God. Based on their faith in what God said they were saved people because they were still slaying the pascals lambs in accordance with what God had said.

Christ came to a spiritually alive people. Otherwise it would have been impossible for them to follow Him.

 

[J. Jump]

You seem to be confused. Saved people don't perish.

Amy saved people are the only people that can perish. Saved people are the only people that have life to give up. Unsaved people destined to the lake of fire forever and ever and ever are dead already. They have no life to perish.

How can you make a dead man more dead?

 

[TCGreek]

Ah yes here we see a CRITICAL point that I have pointed out in the past. MUCH understanding, especially in the gospel accounts, is based on an understanding of OT salvation and how folks were saved in the OT.

You are coming to the text of the NT with the assumption that all are destined to the lake of fire for ever and ever and ever (unsaved) until they are saved by Jesus. But there is nothing in the text that suggests that.

Jesus came with a spiritual message of a spiritual kingdom. He could not offer that to a spiritually dead people. They were spiritually alive, but spiritually blind. Blindness does not equate to death.

Israelites were given the sacrificial system to point toward the Ultimate Sacrifice of the Lamb of God. Based on their faith in what God said they were saved people because they were still slaying the pascals lambs in accordance with what God had said.

Christ came to a spiritually alive people. Otherwise it would have been impossible for them to follow Him.

Are you an annihilationist?