Justified while Ungodly !

[savedbymercy]

So you simply trash the difference of tense in Epheisans 2:2-3 between "now" and "were" by making both mean "always"??? You will stop at nothing to force the scriptures to teach your false doctrines.

The greek does not help your case here. Most of the time when you use the greek, it is only for show, you rarely know what you are talking about, as in this case. You have failed to show in the greek or in the English, or in german or french, that the Elect were ever the children of disobedience !

 

[Yeshua1]

The greek does not help your case here. Most of the time when you use the greek, it is only for show, you rarely know what you are talking about, as in this case. You have failed to show in the greek or in the English, or in german or french, that the Elect were ever the children of disobedience !

Do you know enough of the biblical greek to able to discern IF he is being truthfully or not in his exegesis?

Do you have ANY NT verses saying that one can get saved WITHOUT placing faith in Christ?

 

[The Biblicist]

The greek does not help your case here. Most of the time when you use the greek, it is only for show, you rarely know what you are talking about, as in this case. You have failed to show in the greek or in the English, or in german or french, that the Elect were ever the children of disobedience !

I once met a person like you. We were talking about the Great Commission text of Matthew 28:19-20 and I pointed out that the primary verb translated "teach" in verse 19 was modified by three participles. On hearing this, he grabbed his Bible and pulled it close to his heart and said, "There is no verbs and participles in my Bible."

You are about the same level of understanding as that man.

You cannot even recognize the English much less the Greek Text.

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Look at the terms that I have highlighted and ask yourself are they PAST tense terms or present or future tense? I know this is difficult for you but try.

If you are capable of discerning that they are PAST TENSE terms then what is Paul telling the Epheisans? He is telling this WAS their PAST TENSE condition and Description previous to being regenerated. It is not what they are "NOW" but what they "WERE" then. Got it?

Now, take a look at the following highlight terms:

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

In verse 3 the words "among whom" literally is "IN whom" as the Greek preposition is "en". Paul is saying that they were PART of that kind of crowd as they were "EVEN AS OTHERS" in regard to "NATURE." That is, they too were "the children of disobedience" and they too were "the children of wrath" according to their "NATURE" which was changed when regenerated.

Now, what you want us to believe is the word "among" means we did not partake of that actual "nature" as that is what THEY (non-elect) were but not what "WE......were by nature." However, Paul is saying very clearly that is precisely what "WE......were by nature" - we were by nature "THE children of wrath" and "THE children of disobedience."

Of course what Paul says means nothing to you because you are only interested in defending your false teachings and so you just pervert the text and make it say anything your little depraved heart desires, don't you?

 

[savedbymercy]

Faith believes on Him that Justifieth the ungodly. That is God given faith receives the Divine Testimony that God Justified His People solely upon Christ's death per Rom 8:33-34, and not on account of any works or conditions performed by men, but while they were being ungodly and enemies in themselves, God was justifying them by the death of His Son ! Also God imputes righteousness to all for whom Christ died or was made sin for 2 Cor 5:21; Rom 5:19 without works, this is testified Rom 4:6

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Now without works means without believing, for believing is a work performed by the mind of man. The word works ergon means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So now if God imputes Righteousness because one did believe a testimony, then Rom 4:6 cannot be true ! If God justifies any sinner or accounts them righteous because of believing, then He is responding to good, virtuous dispositions within him the man, which cannot be if He is Justifying the Ungodly. Ungodly means:

destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious

For Paul writes 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

And this fact of accomplishment s received by God given Faith !

 

[The Biblicist]

I once met a person like you. We were talking about the Great Commission text of Matthew 28:19-20 and I pointed out that the primary verb translated "teach" in verse 19 was modified by three participles. On hearing this, he grabbed his Bible and pulled it close to his heart and said, "There is no verbs and participles in my Bible."

You are about the same level of understanding as that man.

You cannot even recognize the English much less the Greek Text.

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Look at the terms that I have highlighted and ask yourself are they PAST tense terms or present or future tense? I know this is difficult for you but try.

If you are capable of discerning that they are PAST TENSE terms then what is Paul telling the Epheisans? He is telling this WAS their PAST TENSE condition and Description previous to being regenerated. It is not what they are "NOW" but what they "WERE" then. Got it?

Now, take a look at the following highlight terms:

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

In verse 3 the words "among whom" literally is "IN whom" as the Greek preposition is "en". Paul is saying that they were PART of that kind of crowd as they were "EVEN AS OTHERS" in regard to "NATURE." That is, they too were "the children of disobedience" and they too were "the children of wrath" according to their "NATURE" which was changed when regenerated.

Now, what you want us to believe is the word "among" means we did not partake of that actual "nature" as that is what THEY (non-elect) were but not what "WE......were by nature." However, Paul is saying very clearly that is precisely what "WE......were by nature" - we were by nature "THE children of wrath" and "THE children of disobedience."

Of course what Paul says means nothing to you because you are only interested in defending your false teachings and so you just pervert the text and make it say anything your little depraved heart desires, don't you?

The typical response by SBG to Biblical evidence he cannot respond to is ignore it and push on repeating error like a parrot.

 

[savedbymercy]

It is God who Justifies !



Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Now who shall lay anything to the charge[Against] of God's Elect ? It is God that Justifieth [declares righteous]

Quite frankly here, the non charge by God regarding His Elect, is their Justification !

Nothing of the Elect's performance is regarded in the matter. Now who are those whom God will not lay charges against ? Quite frankly it is for all those Christ died, which reasonably means, the charges that should have been laid or charged against them, were laid or charged upon Him, leaving them Justified by God !

God did not lay iniquity upon them, but upon Him Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid[or charged or to strike] on him [instead] the iniquity of us all.

 

[savedbymercy]

And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all!



Many false teachers are deliberately ignorant of this matter Isa 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Of when God did lay all the iniquities of His Elect to the Charge of Christ ! They teach it as though God does not do it, not until one believes, however that is a serious mistake in judgment !

There is a different time element involved as to when God laid the sin of the elect upon Christ, and when one finds peace through believing of that fact. God's act of laying the sins of the elect is solely an act of God alone, however the act of believing belongs to the one believing. The believing is merely coming into the Knowledge of God's act done in the past, an act that only involved He and Christ their Surety ! Now the application of the blessing can be in the present or the future, but the act of God's Non imputation of the sins of the elect, is always a thing of the past, for Paul preached it so to the Corinthians 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Also this non imputation and the blessing of it was known by the OT Saints as Here Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Paul preached an past act of God, whereby God instead of imputing or charging sin on the elect world, He made Christ sin [by an act of imputation] instead, also Christ was made unto a guilty sinner by imputation, and by that all the actual transgressions of God's elect world were laid to His Charge or account. Now the Truth of the matter is this, no one can be a True Believer that Christ died for their sins, unless their had been an aforetime Act of God, of imputing their sins to Christ in the past !

 

[Yeshua1]

jesus was NOT a "guily sinner', as he stayed the God.man while upon the Cross, as he become the sin offering bearer, but did NOT become a sinner!

 

[savedbymercy]

No charges ever laid against them !

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Any person that is one of God's Elect, God does not ever have any charge of sin against them. From the time they are first conceived in their mother's womb,until their dying day, like the thief on the cross, God did not ever charge him for his sins as a thief, though the powers that be did. The reason this so, is because God had already charged them upon Christ !

 

[Yeshua1]

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Any person that is one of God's Elect, God does not ever have any charge of sin against them. From the time they are first conceived in their mother's womb,until their dying day, like the thief on the cross, God did not ever charge him for his sins as a thief, though the powers that be did. The reason this so, is because God had already charged them upon Christ !

until the person receives jesus by faith, God holds them guilty, sinners found to be In Adam!

 

[savedbymercy]

God never charged the sins of the Elect to them before time in His Eternal Counsel in Christ Jesus ! Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

In the Mind and Purpose of God the Lamb was slain for the sins of the Elect from the foundation Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Then in time, during the Time of the Crucifixion, God had laid the sins of God's Elect upon Christ experientially, when for the first time The Father hid His Face from the Son, forsook Him Matt 27:46

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

It was because God by Covenantal agreement had laid all the sins of His Elect to Christ's Charge to die in their behalf.

So when did God ever lay any charges on the Elect personally for their sins ? He never did ! They were Justified always, Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

If we can answer Paul's inquiry as to who shall lay anything to the charge of God's Elect, then we can name a time when they were not Justified by God, it is as simple as that !

 

[Yeshua1]

God never charged the sins of the Elect to them before time in His Eternal Counsel in Christ Jesus ! Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

In the Mind and Purpose of God the Lamb was slain for the sins of the Elect from the foundation Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Then in time, during the Time of the Crucifixion, God had laid the sins of God's Elect upon Christ experientially, when for the first time The Father hid His Face from the Son, forsook Him Matt 27:46

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

It was because God by Covenantal agreement had laid all the sins of His Elect to Christ's Charge to die in their behalf.

So when did God ever lay any charges on the Elect personally for their sins ? He never did ! They were Justified always, Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

If we can answer Paul's inquiry as to who shall lay anything to the charge of God's Elect, then we can name a time when they were not Justified by God, it is as simple as that !

they were NOT justified by God until saved by Him when faith was placed in Christ!

 

[savedbymercy]

God is not Unjust to charge sin to the Elect !



God is not Unjust to charge sin on those, for whom He charged them [sins] upon Christ. We know that God had charged Christ with their sins before He died by His Testimony here Jn 10:15-18

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Now when Christ receive this commandment of His Father ? It certainly was before the time He was speaking the words to that audience in Jn 10 ! He received it in the Suretyship setup of the Everlasting Covenant, it was His engagement performance to Lay down His Life for those God charged Him with their sins !

Now lets imagine that one for whom Christ died, is brought into this and does at that time begin to commit sins and iniquity, and transgressions, all of which, God had before time taken all those same sins, transgressions and etc and charged them to Christ, then how could it ever be Just with God to transfer them from Christ, and to then charge them on the one Christ hath died already for ? After Christ hath by His Blood paid the full redemption price for them ! 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Then whatever also happened to the Fact that Christ hath purified them from sin ? Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Its a Truth, God does not Lay charges of sin against those Christ died for ! Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[The Biblicist]

God Justifies the Ungodly, in that those Christ died for, shed His blood for, which blood Justified them before God, nevertheless they shall still be born as ungodly sinners as anyone else, but the Blood of Christ has always Justified them. To deny this Truth, is to deny the Gospel !

I believe I pointed this out early, but since you are still advancing a false narrative about Romans 4:5 it needs to be repeated.

The grammar in Romans 4:5-6 denies your whole interpretation of this text.

"Beleiveth" is present tense. "justifieth" is present tense and so is "imputeth." Grammatically this demands all these actions were SIMELTANEOUS with each other or identical action.

Hence, this verse cannot possibly be used to justify the idea that justification of the ungodly occurred previous to actual believing. If you say it does you are simply telling a lie and contradicting the very grammar that dictates the proper interpretation of this text.

In order for your narrative to be true "justifieth" would have to be a completed action verb with these present tense verbs. However, that is simply not the case but that is how you are falsely interpeting the text.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

I believe I pointed this out early, but since you are still advancing a false narrative about Romans 4:5 it needs to be repeated.

I am advancing the Truth which you deny !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



I am advancing the Truth which you deny !

You may advance the truth but not at the expense of Romans 4:5-6 where the grammar deny what you are advancing in regard to the "ungodly" is truth.

You are perverting this text by your interpretation.

Truth harmonizes with the context, contexual grammar and overall context. This is a lesson you have yet to learn.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

You are perverting this text by your interpretation

You just reject the Truth because you are in deception !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



You just reject the Truth because you are in deception !

Truth does not contradict INSPIRED scriptures and INSPIRED scriptures is a result of God choosing the very words and syntactical relationship between those words identified by grammar.

Go back and learn the basics of Bible interpretation if you want to know THE TRUTH! You PERVERT the scritpures in order to teach YOUR TRUTH but YOUR TRUTH is not GOD'S TRUTH because God is not the author of confusion, He does not write one thing and mean another thing and that is precisely how YOUR TRUTH is obtained.

 

[savedbymercy]

the bib

Truth does not contradict INSPIRED scriptures

I agree. But you reject the Truth !

 

[The Biblicist]

the bib



I agree. But you reject the Truth !

Three present tense verbs modify "the ungodly" in Romans 4:5-6. No matter how much you would like that to be different it simply is not different. No matter how much you would like the term "justifieth" to be Aorist or Perfect tense verb (all completed action tenses) it is not! This act of justifcation did not occur before "believeth" or "imputeth" to this "ungodly" man. This act of Justification occurred simletaneous with believeth and imputeth to this "ungodly man." That is the simple facts of grammar that neither you or I can change and your interpretation of this text CONTRADICTS these grammatical facts.