Katrina - Random Act or Wrath of God?

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Askjo:
I received a copy of the quotation from someone in my church today. Let it says:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> August 2005 - The Bush Administration brings pressure on Isreal to remove , by force, settlers in the Gaza Strip and giving the land to the Palestinians in order to establish peace.

August 29, 2005 - Hurricane Katrina crashes into the Gulf coast of the United States. Over 100 billion dollars in estimated destruction. This was the worst catatrophe in the history of the nation. Now thousands people dead in one county alone. The effects on the economy for the future are staggering.

Please don't touch Israel because God said:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3 (KJV)

To understand what God said is that He is jealous over His land and His people. </font>[/QUOTE]So God is going to punish all the Christians, those who truly are His people, who live in the South? Dispensational nonsense!

Besides that passage was fulfilled with the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Charles Meadows]

I strongly disagree with statementsc hinting that Katrina was God's punishment for New Orleans.

What did Jesus say about those on whom the tower of Siloam fell (Lk 13)? Or about those whose blood Pilate mingled with the sacrifice?

We live in a sin-cursed world where natural phenomena occur and will continue to occur until Jesus sets His foot on the mount in Jerusalem.

 

[richard n koustas]

What did Jesus say about those on whom the tower of Siloam fell (Lk 13)? Or about those whose blood Pilate mingled with the sacrifice?

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Helen:
If Katrina is not an example of God's judgment on New Orleans and other towns, then what is? We recognize that judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah, but not New Orleans, the capital of voodoo (in the USA), the Mardi Gras, and public corruption (and often the murder capital of the USA)?

The difference between what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah and the hurricane in New Orleans is that we have God's word telling us what happened to S & G and why. No one on this board so far has claimed a personal revelation from God that he sent the hurricane to punish people in New Orleans or Biloxi.

There are cities just as evil as NO all across the country and the world.

Here we sit under a roof with food and water confidently saying that this was a judgment of God on NO. I'm sorry, but that sounds so smug.

 

[Grasshopper]

So God is going to punish all the Christians, those who truly are His people, who live in the South? Dispensational nonsense !

Besides that passage was fulfilled with the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Exactly!

If Katrina would have been a catagory 1, would it still have been a judgement from God? Are tornadoes judgements? Landslides. blizzards? It seems God has been judging people since creation if all these are judgements. Or is only the "big" ones that are from God? Does God judge with hurricanes only during hurricane season? If God judged every place that has sinners, what is left?

 

[Marcia]

This is the best answer:

What about the people of New Orleans? Was Katrina God’s swipe of judgment at “Sin City”? We do not have warrant to claim that this was a specific judgment like Sodom and Gomorrah. Moreover, if we think New Orleans was worthy of God’s judgment, we need to remember that we also are worthy of judgment. Indeed, in this sense, I am personally responsible for Katrina – just as is our whole sinful human race. I am reminded of G. K. Chesterton’s answer to an essay contest that asked, “What is wrong with this world?” He submitted the shortest answer: “I am.” So if Adam and Eve are responsible for Katrina, and if sinners in the path of Katrina are responsible, then so am I responsible for this being a cursed world under the bondage of death. In short, sin – Adam’s, yours, and mine – is responsible for the violent natural order that brought Hurricane Katrina.

The above is part of a very short essay at
http://tinyurl.com/ac3yx

 

[Ingo Breuer]

Beside all the talking, show them compassion and help them down there. Donate.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Yes its true we cannot say that Katrina was directly a judgement from God. But we can say that we are left in a world of capricious dynamics that can devestate at times because of our seperation from God. God leaving us to the natural elements is partly a mercy for if His judgement were to come upon us, who could stand? It is also a rememinder of what is in store for all of us, unless we REPENT and TURN TO HIM FOR MERCY!

And yes, we need to pull together and all help as we are able. That is definately God's will for New Orleans.

 

[Askjo]

I have 11 lists showing that US gov't touched Israel and dangerous disasters occured in the US. These 11 lists are from October 1991 to August 2005.

6 of 11 lists are that US touched Israel and many disasters occured in US on SAME day.

5 of 11 lists are that US touched Israel and many disasters occured in the US on different days.

The events may be coincidental. Not all events are included in this lists.

 

[robycop3]

Askjo, are you forgetting there are more Jews in the USA than in any other nation, including Israel? Of the world's est. 13 million Jews, about 6.1 million live here as compared to about 4.9 million in Israel. And many, MANY Jews are important govt. officials, or recently were, such as Secy. Cohen, Justice R.B.Ginsberg, Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzynski, & Henry Greenspan, to name a few. And just look at a list of any of the lesser-known cabinet officials for all the Presidents since Carter. Notice all the Jewish names among their numbers.

I believe God has BLESSED the USA because she's been very friendly with the Jews most of the time, with little-to-no govt. persecution, and only isolated incidents by the public.

Now, about Katrina...Were the Chinese deserving of the numerous floods of the yellow River that have takin millions of lives over the years? Were the Japanese deserving of the 1923 Tokyo earthquake which killed at least 100K people, with the exact death toll not really known? Did Europe deserve the great plague? Did the world deserve the flu pandemic of 1918 which killed more people than WW1, or any outbreak of disease in history? Did the world deserve the recent tsunami?

Some modern disasters seem worse than older ones because there are a lot more people now, and most nations' coastal areas are heavily-populated and built up. When Krakatoa exploded, it produced a much-larger tsunami than the recent one, but "only" some 36K people were killed. krakatoa is still active, and an explosion similar to the 1883 blast would kill hundreds of thousands in Indonesia alone.

Commercial plane crashes sometimes took some 75 lives per crash, but now it's several hunderd because the capacity of the planes has grown considerably. And also modern technology has produced disasters not possible earlier, such as the Halifax gunpowder explosion of 1917, which killed about 2000, & almost completely destroyed the city.

Revelation tells us of the disasters God's gonna soon send. And I believe they'll be brought on by the close approach of another planed, either from the solar system, or a "wanderer" from deep space.Jesus tells of "sihns in the heavens(Comets, meteors, etc. have been known since man has existed, so it's gotta be something else)perplexity of nations, the waves & seas roaring(They roar now, so this hasta be an abnormal roaring from an abnormal cause), men's hearts failing them for fear of the things they see coming upon the earth.(Another planet heading toward earth would certainly cause the hearts of many unsaved people to fail from fear. Despite the sci-fi stories, how could we stop another planet from colliding with earth? But the CHRISTIAN has God's assurance that this is all part of His plan, and that the earth will NOT BE DESTROYED.

 

[Watchman]

What I have seen here is that, while posters on both sides have made some points, I feel that we do not know the mind of God here as to whether this was the judgement of God or not. I remain neutral on this.

 

[LadyEagle]

We are quick to say God has Blessed America. Why are we not just as quick to realize God can (and maybe is) judging America for her collective sins - including the thousands of unborn Americans murdered each day in the womb.

There is one abortion free city in America now - New Orleans.

I include here quotes from the Pastor of New Covenant Fellowship of New
Orleans, Pastor Bill Shanks.

&gt; "New Orleans now is abortion free. New Orleans now is Mardi Gras free. New
&gt; Orleans now is free of Southern Decadence and the sodomites, the
&gt; witchcraft workers, false religion -- it's free of all of those things
&gt; now. God simply, I believe, in His mercy purged all of that stuff out of
&gt; there -- and now we're going to start over again."
&gt;
&gt; --Bill Shanks, pastor of New Covenant Fellowship of New Orleans.
&gt;
&gt; Note: Pastor Shanks has hosted Operation Rescue events in New Orleans and
&gt; picketed frequently at the Causeway abortion clinic, the largest in the
&gt; state. He heeded warnings to evacuate and is currently staying with
&gt; friends in the Jackson, Mississippi, area.
&gt;
&gt; Speaking against legalization of sodomite marriages before the Louisiana
&gt; state legislature on May, 2004, he said the following:
&gt;
&gt; "One Category 5 hurricane coming up the river will take care of all
&gt; sodomite marriages. I believe this will open the floodgate for God to
&gt; bring judgment on our land."
&gt;
&gt; SOURCES: http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/9/22005b.asp;
&gt; advocate.com/new_news.asp?id=12303&sd=05/05/04 (Google cache).

Just as Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were carried off into
captivity because of the judgment upon their nation, there are righteous
people who are suffering, but this does not negate the fact that God judges
nations for the very things that New Orleans celebrates.

I weep in my heart for New Orleans, as Jeremiah the weeping prophet weeped
for Israel - but Israel still had it coming, and Jeremiah didn't blush to
say it. He wished and prayed for mercy as I do, but wasn't apologetic at
pronouncing the wrath of God upon the nation and cities of Israel for their
child-killing, their idolatry, their witchcraft, their sexual immorality,
their impenitence and pride.

Remember the message of Jeremiah, Isaiah, Elijah, Joel? Didn't they warn of
judgment over and over again, and when judgment came, didn't they warn them
to turn from their sins and so acquire mercy? Are the oracles of God so few
in our nation that when someone says what Jeremiah, Isaiah, Elijah, or Joel
would have said about New Orleans, you lash out in anger? The church of
Christ is so asleep in her pews, that they'll mock the words of God
foretelling of judgment today, just as the religious folk mocked back them
and tasted the fiercest of God's temporal wrath.

Some of you have said that no one deserves the judgment of death,
starvation, infection, beatings, robbery, that has afflicted the people of New
Orleans particularly, and the region in general? Dear friend, we
must flush the "God's gonna bless everybody no matter what" Americanized Gospel and read
the Bible: Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, but every nation
that forgets God will be turned into hell. We must fear the Lord, friend.
He is longsuffering, but we have mistaken his longsuffering for complacency,
and He will not always strive with the United States. There is the curse of
innocent blood on us, and unless we repent, the judgments upon America's
cities will continue. Let us preach it from the rooftops:
America's got it coming, and only repentance and faith will win God's favor
and mercy on our land and our people once again. God's looking for John the
Baptists to warn others to flee from the wrath to come: will you be one?

In the fear of the Lord,
Patrick Johnston
www.rightremedy.org

 

[LadyEagle]

Also from the above email I got this morning:

Five abortion clinics have killed 13,000 to 15,000 people annually through
abortion. Several Pastors video-ed some of the perverse acts that took
place at the Southern Decadence festival in full view of the public in the
French Quarter two years ago; they distributed the video footage to the
media and to the city's leaders. Rather than condemn this invasion of
perverts as the pastors requested, the city officially welcomed the homosexuals.

The annual Southern Decadence brings in about $85 million in tourist dollars. The Southern Decadence Convention week long festival was to start two days after Katrina hit, with the big parade through the city streets to be on Sunday (yesterday). A crowd of 150,000 to 300,000 participants was expected in NOLA for the third annual Southern Decadance Festival this year.

In Jerusalem, the World Wide Gay Celebration was to take place in August. There was to be a big parade of gays, lesbians, and transvestites from all over the world coming to Jerusalem and making a pilgrimage to the Temple Mount. It was scheduled a year ago. The Mayor of Jerusalem opened them with open arms - again, for tourist dollars. Once the Gaza pullout was scheduled for the same time frame, the International Gay Pride community rescheduled the event for next year due to concerns over violence.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Askjo:
I have 11 lists showing that US gov't touched Israel and dangerous disasters occured in the US. These 11 lists are from October 1991 to August 2005.

6 of 11 lists are that US touched Israel and many disasters occured in US on SAME day.

5 of 11 lists are that US touched Israel and many disasters occured in the US on different days.

The events may be coincidental. Not all events are included in this lists.

Nonsense. God will eventually judge this country because of our slaughter of 40,000,000 plus unborn children but not because of anything having to do with Israel.

If your logic were rational why has God not destroyed the pagan nations who are trying to destroy Israel. Why has He not judged most of northern Europe who are anti Israel.

As I have stated earlier your rationale is nonsense.

 

[Askjo]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Nonsense.

Do you ignore Genesis 12:3?

God will eventually judge this country because of our slaughter of 40,000,000 plus unborn children but not because of anything having to do with Israel.

That is not what Genesis 12:3 said.

[ September 05, 2005, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Askjo ]

 

[LadyEagle]

If your logic were rational why has God not destroyed the pagan nations who are trying to destroy Israel. Why has He not judged most of northern Europe who are anti Israel.

He will in His own time. It's in the back of the Book.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If your logic were rational why has God not destroyed the pagan nations who are trying to destroy Israel. Why has He not judged most of northern Europe who are anti Israel.

He will in His own time. It's in the back of the Book. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes it is. In Revelation 20:11-15 all will stand before the Judgment of the Great White Throne. However, to claim that God will punish those for whom His Beloved Son died because of Israel is impure dispensational nonsense. This promise was made to Abraham. The Apostle Paul tells us that those who are Christ's are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise [Galatians 3:29]. In Romans 8:17 the Apostle Paul tells us that we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ.

There are many things for which Christians will answer but Israel, which is predominately agnostic at best and pagan at worst, is not one of them.

Again, to state that God will punish those for whom His Beloved Son died because of Israel is impure dispensational nonsense and borders on blasphemy.

 

[LadyEagle]

You are entitled to your own opinion, Old Regular, but there are many here who disagree with you. Most who DO disagree would never post because they would come under attack. And your definition of blasphemy is also questionable.

The majority of Southern Baptists believe in the premillenial rapture of the Church and that the Land belongs to Israel. They also believe that if God's people will humble themselves and pray, and turn from their wicked ways, He will heal their land.

And the majority of Baptists, even non-Baptists, that I talk to and know also believe in God's Judgment upon nations and God starting to remove his Hand of Protection on America because of our national sins.

The only differing opinion I've ever encountered on these subjects is here on the Baptist Board - you, Grasshopper, and a few others - but certainly not among all the thousands and thousands of Baptists, including Baptist preachers, I've known throughout my life time.

 

[Brian30755]

No one on this board so far has claimed a personal revelation from God that he sent the hurricane to punish people in New Orleans or Biloxi.

What if someone did? Would you believe them? If not, what does it matter that no one has?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
You are entitled to your own opinion, Old Regular, but there are many here who disagree with you. Most who DO disagree would never post because they would come under attack. And your definition of blasphemy is also questionable.

The majority of Southern Baptists believe in the premillenial rapture of the Church and that the Land belongs to Israel. They also believe that if God's people will humble themselves and pray, and turn from their wicked ways, He will heal their land.

And the majority of Baptists, even non-Baptists, that I talk to and know also believe in God's Judgment upon nations and God starting to remove his Hand of Protection on America because of our national sins.

You said God would punish America because of our treatment of Israel. In fact this country is the only friend Israel has in the world.

You need to meet more people. Also if the truth were determined by the majority opinion you and i and all Baptists would be consigned to hell since the Roman faith is by far the majority.

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
The only differing opinion I've ever encountered on these subjects is here on the Baptist Board - you, Grasshopper, and a few others - but certainly not among all the thousands and thousands of Baptists, including Baptist preachers, I've known throughout my life time.

Unfortunately many Baptists were seduced from the historical Baptist Faith through the disasterous influence of Darby/Scofield.

Don't take my word for it, read the following:

"When the original charter of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858, it contained the following statement which continues as a part of the “fundamental laws.” Every professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist church; and all persons accepting professorships in this seminary shall be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down, a departure from which principles on his part shall be considered grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees, to wit:

[Articles 1-18 deleted]

XIX. The Resurrection
The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God—the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

XX. The Judgment
God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life."

The Second London Confession of Faith[1677, 1689]

Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293, Baptist Confessions of Faith by Lumpkin]

“1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.

3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”

Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]

“1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.

2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”


The New Hampshire Confession [1833]

Article XVIII. Of the World to Come [page 367, Lumpkin]

“We believe that the end of this world is approaching: that at the last day, Christ will descend from heaven, and raise the dead from the grave to final retribution; that a solemn separation will then take place; that the wicked will be adjudged to endless punishment and the righteous to endless joy; and that this judgment will fix forever the final state of men in heaven or hell, on principles of righteousness.”

I still contend that it is blasphemous for anyone to say that, because of Israel, God would punish those for whom His Beloved Son died.