Katrina - Random Act or Wrath of God?

[LadyEagle]

You said God would punish America because of our treatment of Israel. In fact this country is the only friend Israel has in the world.

This is what I said:

Are we now discussing a spiritual issue regarding the Jewish people or Nation of Israel? I thought the OP letter was in reference to America, thanks to the Bush Administration, turning her back on the Nation of Israel, a democracy, and giving away land to terrorists. Yes, America will pay dearly for some of the actions of this President. Clinton never even went this far.

As far as this post of yours...

You need to meet more people. Also if the truth were determined by the majority opinion you and i and all Baptists would be consigned to hell since the Roman faith is by far the majority.

How did the Catholics get involved in a discussion about Baptists? Straw man.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
The majority of Southern Baptists believe in the premillenial rapture of the Church and that the Land belongs to Israel. They also believe that if God's people will humble themselves and pray, and turn from their wicked ways, He will heal their land.

And the majority of Baptists, even non-Baptists, that I talk to and know also believe in God's Judgment upon nations and God starting to remove his Hand of Protection on America because of our national sins.

You write in the above as if the truth were determined by majority opinion. That is how the majority "Christian" viewpoint got drug in. I see you still did not bother to address the historic Baptist Faith. Hang in there with Scofield/Darby.

 

[Grasshopper]

The only differing opinion I've ever encountered on these subjects is here on the Baptist Board - you, Grasshopper, and a few others - but certainly not among all the thousands and thousands of Baptists, including Baptist preachers, I've known throughout my life time.

Try reading Baptist preachers pre-1900. Many today also reject your view, you just don't listen to them.

You seem to proudly fly the flag of Israel by your name, have you ever talked to a missionary who worked in Israel? Have you asked them how they are treated by God's "chosen people"? Do you understand that most living there today are atheist and agnostics? Do you also not realize that those in modern Israel have no link to the OT Jews to whom promises were given?

Armeggedon will become a reality. Not because it is fulfilling any biblical prophecy, but because it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy pushed by those who think Israel of today is the Israel of the Bible. Listen to Tom DeLay and others when they speak of foriegn policy matters, they let their dispinsational view guide their foreign policy. Those who try to make peace in the middle east are blasted by the dispies and labeled anti-semetic. Someday you will have your war but it won't be as pretty as you think.


This might help:

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Dispensationalism/disp_01.htm

"But there is further reason, and a pressing one today, why we should write upon our present subject, and that is to expose the modern and pernicious error of Dispensationalism. This is a device of the Enemy, designed to rob the children of no small part of that bread which their heavenly Father has provided for their souls; a device wherein the wily serpent appears as an angel of light, feigning to "make the Bible a new book" by simplifying much in it which perplexes the spiritually unlearned. It is sad to see how widely successful the devil has been by means of this subtle innovation."

[ September 05, 2005, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Grasshopper ]

 

[LadyEagle]

Grasshopper, your post doesn't seem to be very full of Christian of love towards Israel or to me.

There are missionaries in Israel who are bringing the message of the Messiah to the Jewish people and they are getting saved. Even some Palestinian people are getting saved. All are treated horribly by the PLO.

Do you understand how many atheists and agnostics live in the USA? That is my answer to your straw man statement about atheists and agnostics in Israel.

Dispies are not "pushing for" an Armageddon. On the contrary, the events unfolding in the Middle East, like giving land as a reward to terrorists, the EU, UN, Russia, and US pushing for the Road Map are what is setting the stage for the Armageddon. This is contrary to what most dispies believe.

We do believe it will come to pass as the Bible says. We also believe in the missionary effort to bring as many people to Jesus Christ as Messiah, Lord, and Saviour before the Lord returns and before the Great Tribulation. In Israel and in all parts of the earth.

I believe you are misguided as to what Dispies believe, based on your own eschatological views.

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper, your post doesn't seem to be very full of Christian of love towards Israel or to me.

The same could be said about you and Arabs. But I have learned not to take things personal during heated debates.
The difference is I don’t claim Israel is God’s chosen people. Nor do I believe OT passages concerning OT Israel apply today. Which other OT passages should we still abide under?

I have no problem with the nation of Israel, I wish the entire middle east were a democracy in that fashion.

There are missionaries in Israel who are bringing the message of the Messiah to the Jewish people and they are getting saved. Even some Palestinian people are getting saved. All are treated horribly by the PLO.

Good, but ask the Palestinian Christians if they are given equal treatment. You say the PLO treats them horribly but you are silent when it comes to Jewish treatment of missionaries. Why?

Do you understand how many atheists and agnostics live in the USA? That is my answer to your straw man statement about atheists and agnostics in Israel.

No one claims the United States is God’s chosen people.

Dispies are not "pushing for" an Armageddon. On the contrary, the events unfolding in the Middle East, like giving land as a reward to terrorists, the EU, UN, Russia, and US pushing for the Road Map are what is setting the stage for the Armageddon. This is contrary to what most dispies believe.

Perhaps you can give me chapter and verse on how giving land to EU is leading to Armageddon.

We do believe it will come to pass as the Bible says.

You believe it will come to pass as dispies believe.

I believe you are misguided as to what Dispies believe, based on your own eschatological views.

Not sure how my view makes me misquided about what dispies believe.
Having been a dispie most of my life, I will concede it is hard to find dispies who agree on a lot. Like those who believe the last days began at Pentecost(ED) and those who believe the last days began just recently but never said exactly when(LE).

 

[DeafPosttrib]

The declaration of Israel as nation in 1948. That was from Zionism Movement at the conference at United of Nation Headquarter in New York City.

God does not draw Jews from other countries, return to their homeland. God allows Jews return to 'Israel'. God allows Satan to pulling Jews coming to 'Israel' for the purpose coming bloodshed -another Holocaust. Satan and nations really hate Jews so much, they want to killed them so many as they can.

I love Jews, I respect them so well. I am amill, I am NOT an anti-semetic. I feel sorry for Jews are suffering under Arabs and Palestinians about giving up their part of lands to them. Actually, Arabs hate Jews so much. Nothing new to us for many generations. There is always conflict between them since Jacob and Ishamel in Genesis.

I am sure that Grasshopper and OldRegular both might not agree with me. I believe the events in Middle East are draw them ahead toward Armageddon as in Ezekiel chapter 38,39 foretelling. Also, in Matthew 24:15-21; and Luke 21:20-24 foretelling there shall be a great tribulation against Jews and Christians who are dwelling in Judea('Israel') in the final generation. Luke 21:20 foretells there shall be the sign of Armageddon is coming.

Rev. 9:14-21 & 16:12-16 foretelling, Euphrate River shall be dried up, allow 200 million army from far east(Asia?) march across it prepare for Armageddon.

I am seeing these signs around Middle East are happening right now.

Askjo,

I do not always agree with you everything what you saying about America and Israel.

Understand, we are Spiritual Israel. Church is Israel, Israel is Church. I am not Replacement Thoelogy. Church does not replaced Israel.

The kingdom of God is just expansion, God just added Gentiles unto the tree join with Jews together of Romans chapter 11.

There is not a single verse find anywhere in the New Testament saying that, there will be nation again in the last days, neither, a verse saying that old(modern) Jerusalem shall be world's capitol of the world during millennial kingdom. Neither a verse in N.T. saying that Jews shall possess their land again in the last day.

Romans chapter 11 say nothing about physical nation. It talking about spiritual tree as individuals either Jew or Gentile whosoever beliveth in Jesus Christ, both are on the same boat(tree).

I hear often that premills saying God is blessing America for helping Israel, when America stopped help or support Israel, God will punish America. That is nosense.

Genesis 12:3 is not talking to Jews as nation(Israel), it apply to us as believers, God bless nations who helping or support you, God will punish them who persecute or against you. This verse have do nothing with future millennial kingdom and physical nation or land.

I believe Hurrican Katrina hits New Orleans is act come from God, because of our sins and wicked. God is not please with people and Christians in America include New Orleans, God have to discipline America by send storm to punish them. Also, I believe this event might be the sign of God's wrath is coming at the corner. The purpose is urge us to be awaking of our spiritual need for revival and repentance of our sins, because the end is very near.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[LadyEagle]

those who believe the last days began just recently but never said exactly when(LE).

I believe we are living in the End Times. Not Last Days. They are two different things.

The same could be said about you and Arabs.

The Muslim religion, but not Arabs. I believe the Muslim religion is from satan. It is my prayer that Muslims will turn to the true God and Salvation through Jesus Christ. I have supported ministries who are reaching Muslims for Christ in Arab countries.

Which other OT passages should we still abide under?

Thou shalt not kill, for one.

I have no problem with the nation of Israel, I wish the entire middle east were a democracy in that fashion.

Then you should have no problem with how missionaries are treated in that democracy.

Good, but ask the Palestinian Christians if they are given equal treatment.

Palestinian Christians are very upset to be living in territories handed over to Palestinian control. Their children are forced to go to schools which teach jihad and Islam if they cannot afford to send them to private schools. There is a story on the Internet today about a Palestinian Muslim attack on several groups of Christians living in the West Bank. I have seen no news stories of Jews attacking Christians and missionaries.

You say the PLO treats them horribly but you are silent when it comes to Jewish treatment of missionaries. Why?

Again, I have seen no news stories of Jews attacking missionaries. Perhaps you will provide credible links to prove your claims? I'm sure if that was the case, the US State Department would be issuing warnings to American missionaries to not travel to Israel for it is unsafe. Has the US State Department done that?

Have mission boards pulled missionaries from Jewish controlled areas of Israel because of unsafe conditions?

Perhaps you can give me chapter and verse on how giving land to EU is leading to Armageddon.

I didn't say that Israel is giving land to the EU.

 

[LadyEagle]

Also, I believe this event might be the sign of God's wrath is coming at the corner. The purpose is urge us to be awaking of our spiritual need for revival and repentance of our sins, because the end is very near.

Agreed!

 

[Grasshopper]

God allows Satan to pulling Jews coming to 'Israel' for the purpose coming bloodshed -another Holocaust. Satan and nations really hate Jews so much, they want to killed them so many as they can.

With the help of Dispies who are paying their way.

On Wings of Eagles helps bring one person home to Israel for a gift of $350. In addition to helping with costs to relocate to Israel, these funds are stretched to cover immediate resettlement costs.

http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer?pagename=tv_woe&s_src=google_wings&s_track=google_wings

So we have dispies who love the Jews encouraging them to return to a place where their own theology says 2 of every 3 will be killed.

I believe we are living in the End Times. Not Last Days. They are two different things.

When did the "end times" begin?

I believe the Muslim religion is from satan.

Is Judaism any better in the sight of God? Both deny Jesus. Although Muslims see Jesus as some sort of prophet, modern Judeaism denies even that.

quote:

Which other OT passages should we still abide under?

Thou shalt not kill, for one.

So lets go back under the Law. Lets start with women wearing pants, OK:

Deu 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

I didn't say that Israel is giving land to the EU.

here is what you said:

On the contrary, the events unfolding in the Middle East, like giving land as a reward to terrorists, the EU , UN, Russia, and US pushing for the Road Map are what is setting the stage for the Armageddon.

So who is giving away land if not Sharon?

 

[OldRegular]

Great Posts Grasshopper.

 

[TexasSky]

If Katrina was an act of judgment against New Orleans, explain why there are rapists and murderers in the shelters today? Explain why the evil survived if God was wiping away evil. Was He just careless? Not strong enough to wipe out all evil? Did He want young girls raped by evil men?

 

[OldRegular]

DeafPosttrib

I agree with most of what you said. In fact I would have to get real picky to disagree with anything you said.

 

[LadyEagle]

If Katrina was an act of judgment against New Orleans, explain why there are rapists and murderers in the shelters today?

Who said that? 09/11 and Katrina and whatever else is coming may be a part of God's judgment against America and our national sins to include how we treat Israel. Just the babies who continue to be butchered on a daily basis in this country is enough to bring God's Holy Wrath! Or our sodomy! Maybe it's a wake up call for things to come. An attention getter. An eye opener.

On the contrary, the events unfolding in the Middle East, like giving land as a reward to terrorists, the EU , UN, Russia, and US pushing for the Road Map are what is setting the stage for the Armageddon.

Error in punctuation - here's the correction.

On the contrary, the events unfolding in the Middle East, like giving land as a reward to terrorists

--

(please note the dash. Or put a period there or semicolon, whatever, my intended meaning is the same; it was a run-on sentence)

the EU, UN, Russia, and US pushing for the Road Map are what is setting the stage for the Armageddon.

Satisfied? Sharon gave away the land at the urging of the Quartet. The Quartet consists of the EU, UN, Russia, and US. That is what is setting the stage for Armageddon.

I will not go down your rabbit trail about pants.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Brian30755:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />No one on this board so far has claimed a personal revelation from God that he sent the hurricane to punish people in New Orleans or Biloxi.

What if someone did? Would you believe them? If not, what does it matter that no one has? </font>[/QUOTE]How can someone say it's God's judgment without knowing the mind of God or without a direct revelation from Him?

It matters because those who say it's God's judgment have absolutely no basis for saying that since God has not revealed it. Using the OT doesn't work in this situation. In the OT, God told the people ahead of time what would happen -- through his prophets. This is not what is happening today.

 

[LadyEagle]

God also used visions and dreams in the OT.

But here is an OT prophecy which is yet to be fulfilled:

Joel 2:
[27] And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
[28] And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
[29] And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
[30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
[31] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
[32] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

 

[LadyEagle]

Acts 2:
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[Grasshopper]

But here is an OT prophecy which is yet to be fulfilled:

Joel 2:
[27] And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
[28] And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
[29] And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
[30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
[31] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
[32] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

LE, read Acts again:

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter says it was being fulfilled in his day. The text is clear.

P.S. When did the "end times" begin?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
God also used visions and dreams in the OT.

But here is an OT prophecy which is yet to be fulfilled:

Joel 2:
[27] And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
[28] And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
[29] And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
[30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
[31] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
[32] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

That was fulfilled at Pentecost!

Acts 2:16-24
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24. Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

[OldRegular]

Sorry grasshopper, didn't see your post but perhaps it will do LE good.

 

[LadyEagle]

No, it won't unless you can prove what the word "this" means. Also when did the moon turn to blood? When was God's Spirt poured out upon ALL flesh? And when did the great and terrible day of the Lord happen? And when was Jerusalem delivered?