KEEPING G THE LAW -is not an OPTION!

[tamborine lady]

So, if you're really saved,you don't have to worry about keeping the 10 Commamdments?

If you slip up every once in awhile and kill somebody, it doesn't matter and God can't see it because you are covered with the blood of Jesus?

That's what it sounds like some people are saying.

Selah,

Tam

 

[Claudia_T]

It is rather ridiculous, after all, God's just asking you not to go around murdering anyone, stealing from them, idol worship and a few other things...

You'd think God was asking them to do something terribly difficult the way some act toward the commandments.

How can we live in Heaven in a peaceful society if we dont want to give up our enmity against God's law and stop our rebellion here?

God isnt going to do some magical change in you all of a sudden where you have been a rebel here on earth and suddenly turn you into a saint when Jesus comes.

We had better prepare now while there is still time before these solemn words are spoken:

Rv:22:11: He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

COMPARE;
1Jn:3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness is righteous , even as he is righteous.


Claudia

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
So, if you're really saved,you don't have to worry about keeping the 10 Commamdments?

That is a pretty good "bible text" - just not actually "in" my Bible.

Here are texts that actually ARE in the Bible I have (NASB). Interesting their focus vs the one above.

John speaks about Keeping God’s commandments before the Cross, After the Cross and in the Rev 12, 16 end time period after the resurrection.

Here John says the commandments of God “kept” by the saints by contrast to the rebellion described about those who war against the saints and persecute them.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Rev 12
17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus

Rev 14
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

But “some” might argue that these saints “are special” and don’t actually live under the ONE Gopsel of Gal 6. As far fetched as that idea is – lets pursue some “proofs” showing that such wild speculation can not possibly be true.


Here John shows us that the saints of God commanded to “keep” the Pre-Cross Commandments of God.

John 14

15 "" If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
..
21 "" He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.''
..
24 ""He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.



John 15
10 "" If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

And here John shows us that the saints are still to keep the commandments of God AFTER the resurrection of Christ!

1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


1 John 3
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.



1 John 5
Overcoming the World

2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Is it any surprise that Paul is in full agreement with John on this post-cross requirement to ”keep the commandments of God”?

1 Cor 7
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

James 1
21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "" YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,'' you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by SpiritualMadMan:
I am ~~~~So~~~~~ Scared that I am living contrary to Scripture...

I think I'll go out and buy a Bible College

I have a better Idea - show some interest in the Bible "itself".

These texts in God's Word are presented AS IF "sola scriptura" had meaning for some on the oppsoing end of this dicussion.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

How about that D.L Moody?

 

[Dustin]

"So, if you're really saved,you don't have to worry about keeping the 10 Commamdments?"


No, God allows me the grace to be able to overcome the fact that alone I am completely unable to keep them. God and God alone, through His Son Christ, grants me the ability to.

 

[BobRyan]

Hey - Dustin is sounding like this guy --

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3871/6.html#000077

 

[Dan Todd]

Children,

Let's keep this subject to a debate of the facts - and stop the personal attacks.

Dan Todd, moderator

 

[BobRyan]

What comments are you referencing?

My point above is that Dustin's acceptance of God's Ten Commandments is similar to D.L Moody's acceptance of the same truth.

I am in support of both.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I have a better Idea - show some interest in the Bible "itself".

In Christ,

Bob

I think this is one of the comments, Bob...

I think you intentionally declined to understand the point I was making...

And, it was, and will always be...

That the "Have To" of keeping the Law is so complex as to require a team of Biblical Lawyers to keep one life straight enough to stay saved...

Of course, it is not possible to Keep the Law without God's Change of Heart and the Power of the Holy Spirit...

But, when I became a New Creation in Christ Jesus my "Want To's" Changed..

Paul wrote like this:

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

-The Solution?

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I do _NOT_ advocate using this passage as an excuse for sin... I agree with Paul:

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Another interesting point...

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

*IF* we are Really dead with/in Christ then..

Not only does a 'Dead Man' have not rights...

But, 'Dead Men' can't sin...

And, even if they could the death penalty has already been extracted!

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

The only problem with being a living sacrifice is that the temptation remains to crawl off the altar...

But, I reiterate...

It seems very strange to me a Charismatic/Pentecostal/Armenian whose background tends toward legalism and condemnation to be defending Grace at all costs over the Law!

If OSAS is the fact that some claim it to be...

Then how can one at the same time preach a doctrine of keeping the Law?

Do you follow?

What difference does it make if you are OSAS to keep or not keep the Law?

Because... If you're OSAS saved not keeping the law has no consequences...

Irregardless, one who has the Law of Christs Love shed abroad in their hearts will unconsciously keep the Spirit of the Law and the Prophets...

And, it is the Spirit behind the Law and the Prophets that matters not man's interpretation of them. For the Spirit speaks the things of God...

Mike Sr.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
EdSutton,

I dont know where you got the idea that I think I have "arrived" at anything. I feel just exactly the opposite.

I think that when you keep on looking at the perfection of Christ and at the Law of God, you see more and more of your own sinfulness and then you see your need of forgiveness and deeper repentence.

And so your idea you have about me thinking Im holy or any better than anyone else is WAY off the mark!

It is the Law that acts like a "mirror" and when you look into that mirror is lets you see your defects.

Romans 3:20 By the Law is the knowledge of sin

Jms:1:25: But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

And you cannot fully appreciate the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross unless you realize your sin. Thats why Jesus said its the sick who need a Physician...

Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Remember this passage?

Revelation 3:
15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Well you know why these people are so self-satified? Because they arent looking at the perfect character of Christ, they arent looking at the "mirror" to see their defects and so they think they are just fine! "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked"

Remember the story of the contrast between the Pharisee and the Publican? The Pharisee compared himself with "other men" and by contrast he looked pretty good to himself! "I thank God I am not an adulterer or like this Publican"...

He needed to be measuring himself with the perfection of Christ and THEN he would see himself a sinner in need of the mercy of God.

But these Christians who claim all they have to do is "believe" ...well they always rest easy and are self-satisfied because they dont even think they need any repentence!

Anyway as I said, your idea of me thinking I have somehow "arrived" is very very very very far off the mark. I cant speak for Tam, but only for myself.


Claudia

You are correct, Claudia. I misunderstood another post. You have not made that claim. I apologize for that part. And I misidentified you there. Only Tam made that explicit implication. Ed

 

[Claudia_T]

Ed,

Well ok but you have to go stand in the corner for 5 minutes as punishment...

just kidding

(I hope he really didn't do it)

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JFox1:
How many people have successfully kept all of these laws?

http://www.hisglory.us/documents/613_biblical_laws.htm

Many of them are virtually impossible to keep!

You dont have to keep those laws anymore, just the ten commandments.

Claudia </font>[/QUOTE]On this I will say, On what authority? James says:

10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. (Jas. 2:10, NKJV)

I don't find anything here about elevating the "Big Ten" over the rest of it. As I have previously posted, "The Law", a NT synonym in every instance, for the whole 'Mosaic code', is an undivisible, unified whole. This would seem to be consistent with Jesus words in Matt. 5:17- 20, where He says,

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Did you get that? "One of the least of these Commandments"? Nothing about chopping them up and excising the "Big Ten" from the rest, dropping the remaining 600 or so, that I see.

You can't have it both ways, for Jesus never said it both ways, nor did He 'command', or even suggest both ways, that I see.

As to the Law, I'm a Gentile, not a Jew. As one apart from it, I never had it in the first place. I couldn't "keep it", if I would; as a Christian, 'not under the Law but under grace', I wouldn't "keep it", if I could.

The only thing at the end of the Law was death, for failure. To follow up on the allegory of Galatians 4, for what possible reason would I want to dwell out in the desert with Hagar, as opposed to living in the tents with Sarah? Why would I want to be left out to die, as Ishmael, instead of inheriting all, as Isaac? As my own nephew is wont to say,

"Ah 'on't get it!!"

Nor do I!

In His grace,
Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Ed,

Well ok but you have to go stand in the corner for 5 minutes as punishment...

just kidding

(I hope he really didn't do it)

Naw, I didn't! I answered another post, the one just above!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

What Laws were in the Ark of Covenant that the priests carried across Jordan?

 

[tamborine lady]

Ed Sutton said:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by tamborine lady:


I do know this. If we are truly saved, and are HIS own, we will be led by the Spirit of God to obey the commandments(10).

We are saved by grace, there is no question. We also will be led by the Spirit to not murder, not kill, not lust, etc.

It's not a matter of have to, it's a matter of want to.

I can do any thing I want to do. But since I accepted Jesus, I no longer want to sin. I WANT to follow Jesus!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Congratulations! You have obviously 'arrived', unlike Paul, for example. Not to mention, your 'wants', by your own claim, are superior to his.

quote:
************************************
Tam says:

I wasn't going to address this, but since you brought it up again, now I will answer you.

First of all, I do not claim to be better than Paul! What you can't see, because you're so busy "having it your way", is that our ways are closer than you think.

I believe that when we are walking in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit helps us not to sin. Everyone understands that. But when I say, He helps us keep the commandments, then suddenly it is some awful statement.

I understand where you are coming from. I really do.

My question still remains, (which nobody bothered to answer yet, that I saw) So if we slip up ever once in awhile and kill somebody it's O.K. because God doesn't see it because it's covered by the blood??

Bob Ryan answered with scripture, showing that we are keeping the commandments when we follow the bible, but nobody else addressed it, and I know you don't all agree with Bob.

I've heard this statement so many time: When I sin, God doesn't see it because I'm covered with the blood of Jesus!!

Yet the bible says:

James 1-13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

How could we err, if all we had to do was say the sinners prayer nad we're home free????

I'm not better than Paul. I'm not better than you or anyone else. We are all in this together. So instead of carping at each other, how about a little Love?

Peace,

Tam

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
If you love Me you will keep My commandments and "love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength" and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" on the two hang all the Law and the Prophets.

You can not keep the two I just listed without keeping all of the ten. amen

Actually, doesn't the text you cited say just the reverse? Hence you cannot keep the "Big Ten" unless you have kept both the civil (Lev. 32:18b) and ceremonial (Deut. 6:4,5) Law, first? For all, including the Ten Commandments, hang on these two commandments, not the other way around.
Note Lev. 32:37 , which says:

37 “‘Therefore you shall observe all My statutes and all My judgments, and perform them: I am the LORD.’”

and Deut. 6:1-2a) which says:

1 “Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the LORD your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, 2 that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you...,”

say the same thing, in essence, and are in the near context of the two verses Jesus quoted, as well.

'Legalism' under whatever name or title, and irrespective of the 'good intentions;' is still 'legalism'.

In His grace,
Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Ed;
Actually, doesn't the text you cited say just the reverse? Hence you cannot keep the "Big Ten" unless you have kept both the civil (Lev. 32:18b) and ceremonial (Deut. 6:4,5) Law, first? For all, including the Ten Commandments, hang on these two commandments, not the other way around.
Note Lev. 32:37 , which says:

Ed, I believe when the Bible speaks of the law you must be careful not to confuse the Law of the Commandments with the ceremonial law, circumcision law, sacrificial law but be very precise to what law it is speaking of as Jesus was when he quoted the commandments to the young man who said "what must I do to be saved". Jesus didn't start with the laws he really did come to fullfil, put the circumcision in the heart, make a sacrifice for ever, and the washing of the pots and pans etc but love thy enemies.

I really think you misunderstood my quote in the beginning. I simply was saying if you keep the two you have kept the commandments that were carried in the ark across Jordan by the preists. Which were the tablets of Moses, which were the Ten Commandments.
When the Bible does say we are not under the law that is exactly what it is talking about, The Sacrificial, The Circumcision, The Ceromonial (which include not to wear clothing of different material, stoning your wife to death etc.}

You are adding to the confusion that already exists about the law. That is why Paul said there are those who desire to be teachers of the law and know not what they say and neither do they understand, but we that know the law know it is not for the righteous but for the sinner and ungodly. Also, shall we make void the law through faith, God forbid, yea we establish the law. (what does that mean) It means where and to who is the law for. It for the sinner and ungodly for we are made free from the law by Christ, not that the Commandments were done away with (Ten) but that we don't do those thing no more for we are kept by the power of God, therefore we don't keep the Law but are kept by it for they are put in our hearts and our minds and we just don't commit that kind of sin anymore. (example) If a sign posted of the law about drunk drivers going to jail, well I would be free from that law because I don't drink. Likewise the Commandments, I am free because I don't do those things anymore. Now some don't want to call them the Ten Commandments but still say we can't murder,steal,lie etc. What one of the Ten Commandments can you be guilty of breaking and go to Heaven, can you be an adultereous? a liar? a murderer?
I think the Law is the deepest subject in the Bible and I have heard so much confusion over it all my Christian life simply because of mixing the laws as you have done.

BBob

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I have heard that the Arab Nomads have a saying...

What do you have in your tent if a camel sticks his nose under the tent flap?

Answer: The Whole Camel!

Somewhat similar to "in for a penny in for a pound."

As soon as you start adding "Have To's" to God's Gracious Act of Salvation through the Sacrifice of Christ you run the risk of occulting the fact that **NOTHING** we can do can merit that Grace, earn that Grace or keep that Grace...

Once you add the Ten Commandments as required then you have to add a ton of explanations as to how to obey them and what they mean...

I gurantee that we don't agree on the exact meaning of many of the Ten Commandments...

A lot of the ceremonial Law came out of this need for elucidation...

And, many of the dietary laws still hold as good references even today with all our improved husbandry...

So, no I don't think that you can, as a human, maintain any difference between the Ten Commandments and the entire Judaic Legal Code...

That is why it is important to walk in the Spirit so that you can keep God's Intent in the Law not some human explanation of it...

This will be because of "Want To" from the inner man... Not "Have To" from some religious legal code...

Mike Sr.

 

[Brother Bob]

No where in the NT including the teaching of Jesus did he advocate the ceremonial law but He indeed did teach the Ten Commandments and the day that we are not supposed to teach what Jesus taught is the day of darkness. As far as being a good reference in some cases but in most no. Why do you suppose Jesus, Paul spent so much time in teaching the Ten Commandments and not the ceremonial?

The whole camel? That is where you err for there are at least 3 camels and Jesus, Paul and I only spend our time on the Ten Commandment camel.