KEEPING G THE LAW -is not an OPTION!

[nate]

Answer me this Claudia, do you keep every OT Law or just the 10 Commandments?

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
When you all can start acting like decent human beings then I will talk to ya...till then, ferget it!

All I did was post some stuff aleady written for you to read and think about and get a conversation started..

but as usual, you all had to start in on your pathetic new little game of "Ellen White/Cult"

Its just retarded and I cant hardly have a conversation when you act like idiots.

seriously.

I see once again you have no anwser for the truth. It seems if you do not post SDA dogma, you have nothing to say.

How sad.


In Christ..James

 

[Kamoroso]

Romans 10 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ is the end of the law, as a means of righteousness. The Jews were trying to establish their own righteousness by outwardly observing the law. They thought that this was their salvation. Not understanding that all our righteousness is a s filthy rags unto God. They were ignorant of God’s righteousness, and were trying to establish their own. They did not understand that Christ was, and is the righteousness of God. For he is God, in the flesh. Only with Christ in the heart can one be righteous, only because Christ is righteous, and he is in the heart, not because of anything in or of the sinner. This does not do away with the law, or any of the commandments, rather it establishes them within the heart of the believer.

Romans 8 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Christ condemned sin in the flesh, by living the righteousness of the law, in our sinful flesh. He always walked in the Spirit. This was so that “ the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be. Christ is our perfect example in all things pertaining to walking in the Spirit. He has left us his perfect example. He obeyed all the commandments of God, including the fourth. We should therefore do the same. Not as a means of righteousness, or salvation, but rather out of love for God, and our Savior Jesus Christ. There can be no contention on this point. Those who walk in the Spirit, will walk as Christ walked here on earth, for he was our perfect example of one who walks in the Spirit.

There is only one reason that we are at odds on this point, that is because you refuse to respect the fourth commandment. Please, honestly answer the next ten simple questions for me.

Is it okay to have another god apart from the trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit?

Is it okay to bow down and worship an image, or anything other than God?

Is it okay to take the name of the Lord in vain?

Is it okay to dishonor your parents?

Is it okay to kill?

Is it okay to commit adultery?

Is it okay to steal?

Is it okay to bear false witness against your neighbor?

Is it okay to covet that which belongs to another?

Is it okay not to remember or keep holy the day that God has told us to remember, and keep holy?

You know as well as I do, that you answered no to the first nine of these questions. Because you know as well as I do that the law is good, and holy.

I Timothy 1 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Romans 7 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The contention between us is really only about one thing. That is, your refusal to accept the authority of God, and the scriptures regarding only one commandment. You refuse to remember, and keep holy, the day that God has commanded you to do so. You even refuse to follow the example of your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on this point. Ignoring the conclusive statement made by our Savior regarding the law, you choose to twist the meaning of more obscure scriptures to support your rebellion. The end of these things will not be well for you. Please prayerfully reconsider your position.

Matthew 5 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

II Peter 3 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Beware of how you handle the scriptures. The word of God is a consuming fire to those who would pervert it. If what you believe makes the scriptures openly contradict themselves, then you have a problem. Tell us, how did Christ not mean what He said, when He said that the law absolutely would not change? What did He mean when He said that anyone who breaks even the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do so, which you are doing, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven? Do you want to be called least in the kingdom of heaven? I hope not.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Kamoroso:

There is only one reason that we are at odds on this point, that is because you refuse to respect the fourth commandment. Please, honestly answer the next ten simple questions for me.

Is it okay to have another god apart from the trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit?

Is it okay to bow down and worship an image, or anything other than God?

Is it okay to take the name of the Lord in vain?

Is it okay to dishonor your parents?

Is it okay to kill?

Is it okay to commit adultery?

Is it okay to steal?

Is it okay to bear false witness against your neighbor?

Is it okay to covet that which belongs to another?

Is it okay not to remember or keep holy the day that God has told us to remember, and keep holy?

To anwser you...NO. You do not see the point of grace.

Grace does not mean we change our actions. It means we change our reasons for those actions. Under the Law we keep the Law because of fear. We follow the Law in the OT for we MUST.

In Grace our actions are nearly the same.

But now we Follow Christ because we love Him. In Grace we live in love not fear. the Law brings fear with it, for we always sin. We can never keep the Law in full. We still try in the NT grace, but now we know our sins are covered under the blood, by the grace of God.

Does this mean we live in sin so that grace may be greater? GOD FOREBID!! Paul covers this..for he heard it back then.

2nd...please do one thing for me. read romans 4. romans 4 shows how if we work for salvation...then salvation is due us. God owes us nothing. Salvation is a gift. Free it is. This is Gods Grace...not our works.

Once in salvation we still carry our bodies with us. Our bodies actions show our heart. This is the main point of James. If we are saved..our actions should show our love.

I'll be bold and say this...If one says they Love God and never go to church...i do not see how he can. I mean..God knows his heart..but his love is not showing. I'm not God..and that person will have to anwser on his own. But the fact is..what we love we do.

I love cake...i eat cake. I love basketball...i play basketball. I love imac computers..and I have 20 some to prove it. Our love shows in our actions. I love God..i follow Him...i go to church..read His Word...on and on. If we love God...our actions will show it.

Yet...under grace we do not have to show it. We are free from the law


In Christ....James

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Kamoroso:

The contention between us is really only about one thing. That is, your refusal to accept the authority of God, and the scriptures regarding only one commandment. You refuse to remember, and keep holy, the day that God has commanded you to do so. You even refuse to follow the example of your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on this point. Ignoring the conclusive statement made by our Savior regarding the law, you choose to twist the meaning of more obscure scriptures to support your rebellion. The end of these things will not be well for you. Please prayerfully reconsider your position.

**********

Beware of how you handle the scriptures. The word of God is a consuming fire to those who would pervert it. If what you believe makes the scriptures openly contradict themselves, then you have a problem. Tell us, how did Christ not mean what He said, when He said that the law absolutely would not change? What did He mean when He said that anyone who breaks even the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do so, which you are doing, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven? Do you want to be called least in the kingdom of heaven? I hope not.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith [/QB]

I disagree. Our contention is not over one day. It is over a covenant.

Circumcision was both a covenant and a command given by God to Abraham and his descendants.

God now says this command no longer applies (I Cor. 7:18-20; Gal. 5:1-8; 6:12-16; Acts 15:1-29)

The covenant made at Mt. Sinai, says Aaron and his descendants are the only priests

Jesus is High Priest, ...He was not a descendant of Aaron. This proves there has been a change in the law (Heb. 7:11-18; cf. I Pet. 2:5,9)

God commanded people to offer animal sacrifices

Sacrifices have ceased to be offered because Jesus is our perfect sacrifice (Heb. 10:1-18)

God commanded Israel to keep various holy days,

Today should not keep them (Col. 2:14-17; Gal. 4:10,11)

When the New Covenant came,..the old is done away with. Christ is our rest, so the picture of Christ is no longer needed. Just as Christ was our sacrifice for sins, now the PICTURE of the sheed blood is not needed.

****************
Beware of how you handle the scriptures.

INDEED.

Here is a good note and helpful hint for you.

The New Covenant does not start at Matt 1:1. Many of your support verses come under the old covenant. Christ was peaching manily to a nation as coming King. After the Jews said no, after Christ sheed His blood, after He overcame death, The new covenant begins.

With this in mind go back and read your support verse and see where the New Covenant starts.

Now...one day some of the old covenant will once again be intact. This is after the Church age comes to a close. Christ does Come as King of the Jews and once again will work with one nation. Those from the Church age that believed on Him will rule with Him.

In Christ...James

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

I do know this. If we are truly saved, and are HIS own, we will be led by the Spirit of God to obey the commandments(10).

We are saved by grace, there is no question. We also will be led by the Spirit to not murder, not kill, not lust, etc.

It's not a matter of have to, it's a matter of want to.

I can do any thing I want to do. But since I accepted Jesus, I no longer want to sin. I WANT to follow Jesus!!

Congratulations! You have obviously 'arrived', unlike Paul, for example. Not to mention, your 'wants', by your own claim, are superior to his.

8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Pressing Toward the Goal

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[a] let us be of the same mind.
Our Citizenship in Heaven

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: (Phl'p 3:8-18, NKJV)

Romans 7
Freed from the Law
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Sin’s Advantage in the Law

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom. 7:1-25, NKJV)

Again, Claudia and Tam- congratulations to both on 'getting there'. Me? I've still got a ways to go.

So here's thumbs up for Claudia. I did not read all the post, but I pretty much know what she believes, and that is closer to the truth than some others.

Praise God!!

1st John 4-20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.


Selah,

Tam

Oh yeah! I did read all the post.

In His grace,
Ed

PS My quotes herein do include the 'topic heading' found in the NKJV, for I thought they were instructive.

 

[Eliyahu]

I think we have to distinguish between Ceremonial Law and Moral Law. If anyone think such distinction is groundless, then he or she should think about the animal sacrifice and Crucifixion and should recall the conference in Jerusalem which anounce only several requirements for the Gentiles.

I have some Messianic Jewish friends who emphasize keeping the Law. Apparently he is a born again believer. I told him that it is understandable if Jews try to keep the Law even after they accepted the Lord Jesus as Messiah but that it might be for Jews to preach the gospels to the fellow Jews, and that Gentiles are not bound upon the Law. Then he said even gentiles are supposed to keep the law, keeping the Law is in the higher level of faith while the simple salvation is done without keeping the Law.

However, in the observation for a long time, I have the conviction that Born-Again believers are supposed to follow Holy Spirit, not the Jewish Law, even that Jews are supposed to follow Holy Spirit, and the guidance by Holy Spirit may be different from what we think and estimate based on the Law.

If anyone wants to keep the commandments, then one should keep in the following way.

Deut 26: 18
18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments

Deut 27:1
And Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Keep all the commandments which I command you this day

How can we keep ALL COMMANDMENTS?

Any of you may say that I have kept all the laws throughout my life!
I tried not to eat the blood in the meat and I dipped the beef meat overnight, then next morning I tried to squeeze out all the blood out of it, but noticed a little trace of blood coming out of the meat. Then I soaked it in the water and kept it in Fridge another night. Nevertheless I noticed very, very small amount of blood still exist in the meat. Are you keeping this law seriously? If you are a woman, are you not wearing any man's garment at all ? (Deut 22:5)

Do you keep 613 commandments well?


The only way to keep all the commandments is to follow the Holy Spirit.

 

[JFox1]

To those who think we should still obey OT laws:

Exodus 21:7 states that we can sell our daughters into slavery. How much would be a good price for her?

Leviticus 21:20 states that I must not approach the altar if I have a defect in my sight. I'm nearsighted. Can I still come to the altar or does my vision have to be 20/20?

Leviticus 25:44 states that we can have slaves from neighboring countries. Does that mean I can own Mexicans and Canadians?

Also in Leviticus, Chapter 11:6-8, it states that hogs are unclean for me. Does that mean I can't play football with a pigskin?

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
I think we have to distinguish between Ceremonial Law and Moral Law. If anyone think such distinction is groundless, then he or she should think about the animal sacrifice and Crucifixion and should recall the conference in Jerusalem which anounce only several requirements for the Gentiles.

I have some Messianic Jewish friends who emphasize keeping the Law. Apparently he is a born again believer. I told him that it is understandable if Jews try to keep the Law even after they accepted the Lord Jesus as Messiah but that it might be for Jews to preach the gospels to the fellow Jews, and that Gentiles are not bound upon the Law. Then he said even gentiles are supposed to keep the law, keeping the Law is in the higher level of faith while the simple salvation is done without keeping the Law.

However, in the observation for a long time, I have the conviction that Born-Again believers are supposed to follow Holy Spirit, not the Jewish Law, even that Jews are supposed to follow Holy Spirit, and the guidance by Holy Spirit may be different from what we think and estimate based on the Law.

If anyone wants to keep the commandments, then one should keep in the following way.

Deut 26: 18
18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments

Deut 27:1
And Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Keep all the commandments which I command you this day

How can we keep ALL COMMANDMENTS?

Any of you may say that I have kept all the laws throughout my life!
I tried not to eat the blood in the meat and I dipped the beef meat overnight, then next morning I tried to squeeze out all the blood out of it, but noticed a little trace of blood coming out of the meat. Then I soaked it in the water and kept it in Fridge another night. Nevertheless I noticed very, very small amount of blood still exist in the meat. Are you keeping this law seriously? If you are a woman, are you not wearing any man's garment at all ? (Deut 22:5)

Do you keep 613 commandments well?


The only way to keep all the commandments is to follow the Holy Spirit.

As to the last couple of sentences, once we start, don't we have to continue? I read this as an "all or nothing" proposition. (Gal. 5:1-4; Jas. 2:8-11)

As to the opening sentences which I quote-

I think we have to distinguish between Ceremonial Law and Moral Law. If anyone think such distinction is groundless, then he or she should think about the animal sacrifice and Crucifixion and should recall the conference in Jerusalem which anounce only several requirements for the Gentiles.

Agreed! There is a difference between the Ceremonial (or 'religious' Law, found generally in some of Leviticus and Deuteronomy ) as well as the 'Civil' (or Family Law, generally found in some of Leviticus, and Numbers )and the 'Moral Law' i.e. "The Ten Commandments". And in fact, according to the Lord Jesus Christ, at least one precept of the Civil Law, and one precept of the Ceremonial Law have precedence over the Moral Law, and the Moral Law, therefore, hangs on the Civil and Ceremonial Law, not the other way around. In other words, the Ten Commandments is the 'summation' of "the Law", which is in itself, summed up in "Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself". (Rom 13:9; Gal. 5:14)

(Heading, not text) The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matt. 22:34-40, NKJV)

The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?

28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving[a] that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?”
29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.[c] 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] There is no other commandment greater than these.”
32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul,[e] and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”
But after that no one dared question Him. (Mk. 12:28-34, NKJV)

Did you get it? This is not a 'summation', per se, from Jesus; rather it is two direct quotations, i.e. 'commandments', the one from the Civil Law - "‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’" (Lev. 19:18); and the other one, from the Ceremonial Law, is 'The Shema'- " ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’" (Deut: 6:4-5). Note Jesus adds "There is no other commandment greater than these" (Mk.12:31b); and "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Matt. 22:40)

It is all one, and only one, indivisible Law!

As Christians, we are no more bound to "keep the 'Big Ten'", than we are to offer the blood sacrifice at Jerusalem. The Lord Jesus Christ did it all, once for all time, lock, stock, and barrell.

He restates, as well as other Scriptures, in the language and beseechings of grace, our responsibilities of service, and how we establish the Law. That is through faith.

In His grace,
Ed

[ May 01, 2006, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: EdSutton ]

 

[EdSutton]

In a short and sweet response to the topic-

"KEEPING G(sic) THE LAW -is not an OPTION!", I fully agree! The Lord Jesus removed that 'option' from and for us, at and on the cross!

In His grace,
Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

If you love Me you will keep My commandments and "love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength" and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" on the two hang all the Law and the Prophets.

You can not keep the two I just listed without keeping all of the ten. amen

[ May 01, 2006, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Brother Bob posted May 01, 2006 01:32 PM

You can not keep the two I just listed without keeping all of the ten. amen

Amen!

Unfortunately, the reason All the Law and The Prophets are being 'kept' is not because of a "Have To".

But, because The Love of Christ constrains us...

Plus it will not be the letter of the Law we keep but the Spirit of the Law...

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

We either live in the Liberty of Grace...

(Not as a license to sin...)

Or, we are under every jot and title of the Written Code...

Mike Sr.

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree;
Before the coming of Christ the Law was in the flesh but after His coming, He said I will put my laws in your heart and write them in your mind. The Scripture goes on to say "The righteous of the Law is fulfilled in us."

The letter of the law is in the flesh as I think you have just said.

 

[Claudia_T]

EdSutton,

I dont know where you got the idea that I think I have "arrived" at anything. I feel just exactly the opposite.

I think that when you keep on looking at the perfection of Christ and at the Law of God, you see more and more of your own sinfulness and then you see your need of forgiveness and deeper repentence.

And so your idea you have about me thinking Im holy or any better than anyone else is WAY off the mark!

It is the Law that acts like a "mirror" and when you look into that mirror is lets you see your defects.

Romans 3:20 By the Law is the knowledge of sin

Jms:1:25: But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

And you cannot fully appreciate the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross unless you realize your sin. Thats why Jesus said its the sick who need a Physician...

Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Remember this passage?

Revelation 3:
15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Well you know why these people are so self-satified? Because they arent looking at the perfect character of Christ, they arent looking at the "mirror" to see their defects and so they think they are just fine! "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked"

Remember the story of the contrast between the Pharisee and the Publican? The Pharisee compared himself with "other men" and by contrast he looked pretty good to himself! "I thank God I am not an adulterer or like this Publican"...

He needed to be measuring himself with the perfection of Christ and THEN he would see himself a sinner in need of the mercy of God.

But these Christians who claim all they have to do is "believe" ...well they always rest easy and are self-satisfied because they dont even think they need any repentence!

Anyway as I said, your idea of me thinking I have somehow "arrived" is very very very very far off the mark. I cant speak for Tam, but only for myself.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

SpiritualMadMan,


I dont usually talk to "MadMen" but in your case I will make an exception (just kidding)

Anyways, you said:
Unfortunately, the reason All the Law and The Prophets are being 'kept' is not because of a "Have To".


"But, because The Love of Christ constrains us...

Plus it will not be the letter of the Law we keep but the Spirit of the Law...

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."


I agree wholeheartedly with the iea that we must keep the law from the motivation of LOVE.

But when you say that the letter of the law kills but the spirit gives life... let me explain what I think that means...

The letter of the Law is just the Law itself, the 10 commandments. The Law can do nothing for us... it cant save us or anything... all the law can do is point out where we are sinful.

THEN it is the spirit that gives life. The Holy Spirit ...if allowed, will implant the principles of the law within our hearts and by faith we keep the commandments.

In no way is this any kind of derogatory statement about the law. Its just saying like Paul said when he goes through this big round of lamenting how he wants to keep the law but he cant, etc... he sees this thing warring within himself and so on.... and then whats the answer or the way out? Through Jesus Christ. Jesus offers His own sacrifice for our sins and whats more He sends us the Holy Spirit to enable us to keep the law.. and then what does it say?


Galatians 5:
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Do you understand what that means? It means the law no longer stands to testify against you because you are keeping it now... you are fulfilling the law. How do we get out of cycle of the "law of sin and death"?? by allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us into keeping all the principles of the Law. Of course we all know there will be lots of falling and failing along the way but we just get up and look back to Jesus and believe He is the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
I think we have to distinguish between Ceremonial Law and Moral Law. If anyone think such distinction is groundless, then he or she should think about the animal sacrifice and Crucifixion and should recall the conference in Jerusalem which anounce only several requirements for the Gentiles.

I have some Messianic Jewish friends who emphasize keeping the Law. Apparently he is a born again believer. I told him that it is understandable if Jews try to keep the Law even after they accepted the Lord Jesus as Messiah but that it might be for Jews to preach the gospels to the fellow Jews, and that Gentiles are not bound upon the Law. Then he said even gentiles are supposed to keep the law, keeping the Law is in the higher level of faith while the simple salvation is done without keeping the Law.

However, in the observation for a long time, I have the conviction that Born-Again believers are supposed to follow Holy Spirit, not the Jewish Law, even that Jews are supposed to follow Holy Spirit, and the guidance by Holy Spirit may be different from what we think and estimate based on the Law.

If anyone wants to keep the commandments, then one should keep in the following way.

Deut 26: 18
18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments

Deut 27:1
And Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Keep all the commandments which I command you this day

How can we keep ALL COMMANDMENTS?

Any of you may say that I have kept all the laws throughout my life!
I tried not to eat the blood in the meat and I dipped the beef meat overnight, then next morning I tried to squeeze out all the blood out of it, but noticed a little trace of blood coming out of the meat. Then I soaked it in the water and kept it in Fridge another night. Nevertheless I noticed very, very small amount of blood still exist in the meat. Are you keeping this law seriously? If you are a woman, are you not wearing any man's garment at all ? (Deut 22:5)

Do you keep 613 commandments well?


The only way to keep all the commandments is to follow the Holy Spirit.

Well you see there? If you became a vegetarian you wouldnt have to worry about blood in your meat.

I always wondered about the men and womens garments since they pretty much all wore "dresses" back then... or robes I should say.

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by nate:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Claudia_T:
but as usual, you all had to start in on your pathetic new little game of "Ellen White/Cult"

Its just retarded and I cant hardly have a conversation when you act like idiots.

You treat the RCC the same way as many are treating SDA. You say they shouldn't bring up Ellen White but when a conversation starts about the RCC you use the pope card over, over, over, and over again. So until you stop being a hypocrite don't try and tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't do. </font>[/QUOTE]Every time you might post some bible verses about something I dont start responding by saying you are in a cult or follow the pope, etc the way you do that to me.

If Im gonna say something about the catholic church I just come out and say it. I dont try to ruin every post you make like that.

so dont try to compare me like that.


Claudia

 

[Brother Bob]

The unsaved break the law therefore it is death and the saved keep the law therefore the righteous of the law is fulfilled in us. I thought after agreeing with SMM that I had forgotten that "the commandments came sin revived and I died".

But, I did close that post by saying "The letter of the law is in the flesh which is what I am saying now also."

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

We do tend to make Salvation and being a "King's Kid" a bit complicated at times...

But, it all comes back to matters of the heart...

Either Jesus and His Love is in Residence...

Or, He isn't...


Here's another "interesting" Scripture...

Matthew 17:26 "From others," Peter answered. "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him.

I know this is about taxes...

But, there's something just under the surface about if I am a True Son (adopted though I may be) and an Heir of God...

Then I am not a stranger to God...

A Child of God is _not_ something I do... It's what I are...

Even when I miss the mark...

I do no real harm because I am facing and shooting at the target.

(No one else is in my line of fire!)

But, that is only true as long as I am Facing Jesus and aiming at the correct target...

Does this make any sense?

Mike Sr.

 

[JackRUS]

Claudia_T

I believe that you have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge. For your being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to
establish your own righteousness, you have not submitted yourself unto the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.