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Kenosis and divine attributes

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Van

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Yes, Van, Jesus had those limitations via the human nature. The Son--as in the divine Second Person of the Trinity--did not lose any divine attributes. Jesus had two full natures: the divine and the human. The incarnation did not require the divine nature to lose the possession of any divine attributes so that the human nature could be added to conceive Jesus of Naxareth.

The possession of the divine attributes of omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence of the divine being are not a barrier for God the Son to perform the good and righteous deed of humility expressed in the Carmen Christi as the mind that we should have.

This is not my doctrine. This is the historical definition of the Hypostatic Union as expressed in the Chalcedonian Creed:

"...acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He were parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ..."

Good Grief, we have been over this. The verse does not Jesus emptied Himself, it says the pre-incarnate Son emptied Himself. Please stop repeating refuted arguments again and again.

The Second Person of the Trinity emptied Himself, taking on the form of a bond servant.

I have presented the Biblical view over and over. No changing the name of the divine attributes, changing the Person who emptied Himself, or change of subject to man-made doctrine will alter Philippians 2:7. And BTW, the idea of the Hypostatic Union is Jesus was 100% God and 100% Man.
 

percho

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Just to be clear, I am not one who believes that. Van and possibly others believe that.

The questions in this thread are geared toward those who believe that the kenosis of the incarnation means that Jesus gave up the possession of certain divine attributes along with taking on a human nature.

I know and understand this will upset some but it is my understanding. I believe the, baby to man, Jesus was without divine nature. Therefore with that understanding would this be a good question, with this being the mind of that man Jesus?

How would one in the form of God, that is the Word God invisible, go about humbling himself in form, morphe?

How? And, why? What did the God do?

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Gal 4:4
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

Is this the only way GOD could die the death and destroy the works of the devil?

By being God the Father and the humbled Son of God through woman?
 

Yeshua1

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Good Grief, we have been over this. The verse does not Jesus emptied Himself, it says the pre-incarnate Son emptied Himself. Please stop repeating refuted arguments again and again.

The Second Person of the Trinity emptied Himself, taking on the form of a bond servant.

I have presented the Biblical view over and over. No changing the name of the divine attributes, changing the Person who emptied Himself, or change of subject to man-made doctrine will alter Philippians 2:7. And BTW, the idea of the Hypostatic Union is Jesus was 100% God and 100% Man.
Did Jesus lose any of His divine attributes while here on Earth?
 

AresMan

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Those abilities can be self-restricted at any point, to any level.
Yes, God can exercise His attributes according to His Will, but He cannot subtract or add attributes to His nature. All of God's attributes are essential to His theotetos. We should avoid the temptation of exalting the "personal" attributes of love and righteousness over the "majestic" attributes of power and knowledge. To believe that God can actually remove knowledge or power from His essence would mean that He could remove love or righteousness.

Christ "emptied Himself" of those abilities to take up a true human nature. How did that work exactly, I'd love to know.
The verse says that He "emptied himself [by] taking on the form of a servant and being made in the likeness of men."
Check the Greek. "taking on" and "being made" are participles that function as adverbs, which means that they modify and explain how the "emptied" was accomplished. The emptying was not by losing anything, but by taking on a full nature. Thus, the Hypostatic Union in Jesus of Nazareth means that He is one Person with two full natures.

He subjected the full exercise of certain attributes to the limitations of the human nature to fulfill the divine mission, but nothing was actually lost in possession.

This is not my opinion. This is the historical definition of the Hypostatic Union. Reaf the Chalcedonian Creed if you need proof. Philippians 2:5-11 confirms this.

The attributes of His character and Personhood were not relinquished, but His divine abilities were relinquished. All of His "supernatural" actions were empowered by the Father and the Spirit working in unity with Him.
Did the divine essence of God pertaining to the Person of the Son lose any attributes? Did the divine being change?
 

HankD

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RSV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.

Philippians 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

So we see that the emptying Himself of His glory/majesty and lowering Himself in rank was reflexive (self imposed) for our benefit.

HankD
 

AresMan

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Good Grief, we have been over this. The verse does not Jesus emptied Himself, it says the pre-incarnate Son emptied Himself. Please stop repeating refuted arguments again and again.
You haven't refuted anyone. You keep repeating arguments over and over, yet you will not touch the grammar with a ten-foot pole.
Are labwn and genomenos participles or are they not?
Do participles function as adverbs or verbs?
Do adverbs modify verbs or do they not?

Now, as to Christ/Son,
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus."
Jesus Christ is the subject. Jesus is the one Person of the Son with two full natures: divine and human.

"Who, being in the form of God..." There's the Person of the preincarnate Son.

The Second Person of the Trinity emptied Himself, taking on the form of a bond servant.
That's what I'm saying. The Son "emptied Himself." How? Here comes a participial phrase: "taking on the form of a bond servant." That's an adverb if ever I saw one.

It doesn't say "emptied Himself [and also] took on..."

I have presented the Biblical view over and over.
Because you say so? All the thousands of Greek-speaking Chalcedonians are wrong in agreeing with the language of the Creed carefully refuting Eutychianism and Nestorianism, and you have yet to even mention the fact that there are two participles in the text and how they function grammatically.

No changing the name of the divine attributes, changing the Person who emptied Himself, or change of subject to man-made doctrine will alter Philippians 2:7.
And no ignoring the basic grammatical function of participles will grant you the freedom to chuck church history in the trash bin.

And BTW, the idea of the Hypostatic Union is Jesus was 100% God and 100% Man.
Is that all it us? What does that mean? It seems that we can't even agree on that. Nestorius could claim that. Eutychus could try to claim that. The "heretic Honorius" could convincingly claim that.
It includes the idea that Jesus is one Person with two full natures. The Chalcedonian Creed gives a good explanation of what that means and I have highlighted relevant portions above.

Let's not resort to "every man did theology which was right in his own eyes."
 

AresMan

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I know and understand this will upset some but it is my understanding. I believe the, baby to man, Jesus was without divine nature. Therefore with that understanding would this be a good question, with this being the mind of that man Jesus?
Col 2:9

Please read up on the "kenosis theory" or "kenotic theory" and see where this is clearly heresy.
 

reformed_baptist

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When a person insists on taking 'emptied' (Phil 2:7) in a narrow and overly literal wooden sense so that they can support their doctrine, but then at the same time refuses to take 'saw' (John 1:48) in the same narrow and overly literal wooden sense because that blows their doctrine out of the water what we have is inconsistency of argumentation that demonstrates the irrational nature of the position being held - it is the mark of a failed argument.
 

reformed_baptist

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I have a question for those hold to kenotic theology?

If, as I think we are all agreed, the thrust of Paul's teaching in Phil 2:1-11 is our need to follow the example of Christ, and if 9as some seem to say) the example of Christ is not merely in humbling himself, but actually in divesting himself of some of those attributes essential to the nature of God then how can we follow that example?

Which of our attributes that are essential to our humanity are we to divest ourselves of and how do we do that?
 

Baptist Believer

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Yes, God can exercise His attributes according to His Will, but He cannot subtract or add attributes to His nature.
For some reason you are either overlooking or ignoring that I am using two different words in my explanation, and they have different meanings:

Attribute = a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.
Ability = possession of the means or skill to do something.

You are obsessing about attributes and I am pointing to abilities.

Your critique is misplaced since I am not talking about "subtract[ing] or add[ing] attributes to His nature." There is no point in responding to the rest of it since that will only confuse this conversation more.
 

HankD

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I have a question for those hold to kenotic theology?

If, as I think we are all agreed, the thrust of Paul's teaching in Phil 2:1-11 is our need to follow the example of Christ, and if 9as some seem to say) the example of Christ is not merely in humbling himself, but actually in divesting himself of some of those attributes essential to the nature of God then how can we follow that example?

Which of our attributes that are essential to our humanity are we to divest ourselves of and how do we do that?

Self, ego when it comes to dealing with those in need.

HankD
 

HankD

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Did Jesus lose any of His divine attributes while here on Earth?
His divine attributes and glory were available to Him to be used through the will of the Father to whom He, as a man, willingly submitted.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

2 Peter 1
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

He temporarily lowered Himself (in rank) to die for us, this being the will of God to show us His grace:

RSV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one.

His glory was restored after His resurrection/ascension:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

He desires for us to be there with Him to behold His glory in eternity:

NKJV John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

HankD
 
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Van

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Yet again the same arguments are repeated and repeated. The Greek grammar does not support Jesus did not really empty Himself, but rather took on the form of man. That rewrite is utterly bogus in order to fit man-made doctrine. The bogus contention is the unsupported claim emptied Him of some part of His divine attributes makes His less that 100% God. That dog will not hunt.
 

Yeshua1

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Yet again the same arguments are repeated and repeated. The Greek grammar does not support Jesus did not really empty Himself, but rather took on the form of man. That rewrite is utterly bogus in order to fit man-made doctrine. The bogus contention is the unsupported claim emptied Him of some part of His divine attributes makes His less that 100% God. That dog will not hunt.
God cannot do that, could he, and still be God?
 

Baptist Believer

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So in His deity, Jesus was no longer all knowing/powerful etc?
In His incarnation - before His resurrection and glorification - He did not have the ability to be omniscient nor omnipotent. He set that aside.

One does not cease being deity if One sets aside abilities for a time.
 
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