Seems like I remember a country song on the seventh son. My thing in the '60s was folk, though: Peter Paul and Mary and the like.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
King James Onlyism and Missions
- Thread starter John of Japan
- Start date
- Status
Thank you for the kind words. Amen to the rest.
I've met hundreds of Christians, even KJVO Christians, who give great credit to John R. Rice for teaching them the great mysteries of the faith. He wrote over 200 books about the so-called "mysteries of the faith," and was praised and acknowledged by many SBC leaders (Criswell, Rogers, Patterson and many others), by black Baptists (see my book), conservative evangelicals, even Calvinists.
As for the IFB movement, most of it would not exist if it were not for John R. Rice. I could easily prove this in detail, but this should do. These are the IFB leaders who have strongly proclaimed their debt to him in teaching and mentoring them: Jack Hyles (in his pre-KJVO period), Jerry Falwell (before he left fundamentalism), Curtis Hutson, Wayne Van Gelderen (Sr. and Jr.), Monroe Parker, R. B. Ouellette, Mike Norris, Rick Flanders, Bob Kelley, and many, many others--both leaders and lesser names. I have talked to many of these men personally about John R. Rice and his influence in their lives and ministries. And some of them are KJVO.
Sorry you see fit to criticize him. Two living KJVO leaders wrote endorsements of my new biography of John R. Rice on the back cover, and another wrote the foreword. Of these three men, two have written books defending the KJV. And John R. Rice's view of the issue is made quite clear in the book.
I am sorry you think I am criticizing John R Rice but a little bit. He was a great soul winner and he shined very brightly in all he did in that type of ministry. It was obviously his calling. He was a much better man than I am. I do not care to admit it. But that does not mean I cannot have an opinion about him. I have read some of his commentaries. When it came to the great doctrines of the faith he was a mile wide and a quarter inch deep.
John R Rice has definitely been a help to me in some areas. I remember reading his booklet on the lodges years ago. It was blessing to me at that time. I have read all of them at one time or another. He has helped shape my thinking on some things, for sure. I am not against John R Rice. We have his most excellent tract for the soul winner in our tract rack at church. How could one get a better booklet than that? Answer, he can't.
But John R Rice was not a dispensationalist Christian teacher. This simply means he could not rightly divide the great scriptures of truth. Does this make everything about him bad? Not in my view. I know most of the people you listed above, or I have met them in the past or I have heard them preach and I like them, but like John R Rice, most are not dispensationalists, and that is a problem for people they lead and teach. They will be only be a mile wide and a quarter inch deep, IMO.
There are three things I believe a preacher needs. One, he must be born again, and I have no doubt about John R Rice. Two, he must have the right Bible, the true words of God, and three, he must approach those scriptures from a dispensational point of view. People who buy into the philosophy that is prevalent today concerning translations, are rarely dispensational in their understanding of the scriptures. It was probably his acceptance of all these translations as being a good thing that hindered his understanding of many things.
I hope you are not offended by my opinion because it is not my aim to offend you.
Last edited:
37818
Well-Known Member
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
To @John of Japan point, I went on a mission trip to South Africa in High School and they specifically told us to NOT bring a KJV with us because the people in that country would reject it because of British ties. I kid you not.
Is that code for the KJV?
Yes, The words of God are the vehicles for his thoughts. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, as far as the heaven is above the earth. The person who dains to think they can translate his words along with the spiritual content of them from their own knowledge of Greek will chuckle with me at the foolishness of that idea when we get to heaven and we know all things.
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Aren't you related to JRR? Personally, I liked the man, his message, and respected his testimony for the Lord. Though I didn't agree with him on everything (and just how often do we as Christians agree with other Christians on everything...not always), I always loved to hear him speak. Many of the other men you mentioned I have had contact with in the past, and I respected many of them. I learned a lot from one man, even though I lost respect for him. God can, and often does, use men who have gone astray to help lead others to their destinations. I was once KJVO, but now, I'm KJV preferred, as "onlyism" isn't a position that can be defended honestly, IMHO. I believe 100% that the Holy Spirit led me to this conclusion because of the "onlies" have twisted and misapplied Scripture to fit their own means. It's a shame that this sect of Christianity has to be so divisive and dishonest about their position. I don't hate my KJVO brothers and sisters, but, I do tire of the lies and misrepresentation of other translations.
Now that's very interesting!
Yes, he was my grandfather. I worked for him and lived with him after college for almost a year.
Even I didn't agree with JRR on everything! But God's heart is infinitely wider than ours, and he uses each of us according to His will in spite of our imperfections.
And he did love the KJV, always preaching and writing from it. He did his devotions from it, which I was privileged to join in on when I lived with him. But he rejected double inspiration.
I am with you.
Last edited:
Here's the deal. I teach dispensational theology in Bible college and seminary. (You are now free to say I'm bragging and not giving the glory to God for simply saying what I do for the Lord.) I freely admit John R. Rice was not a dispensationalist. But I do not have the gall to say that dispensationalism is some kind of "deeper truth," and anyone who does not teach is is "a mile wide and a quarter inch deep." Frankly, I think that is silly, and misses the point of dispensationalism, which is to glorify God, not glorify dispensationalism.
John R. Rice was premillennial and pretribulational, but there were two points that kept him from being a dispensationalist: (1) He believed OT saints were in the church, and (2) He believed we should emphasize the 3000 saved at Pentecost rather than the founding of the church (and he did not openly disagree with that doctrine). Frankly, believing differently from him on those two items does not mean one has deeper truth.
Last edited:
But we digress from the OP. As long as JRR has come up, let's compare his ministry with that of Peter Ruckman. This means comparing someone who put the Great Commission first in his ministry (Rice) with someone who put defending the KJV first in his ministry.
1. Authorship: Rice had over 200 books and pamphlets published. Of those, many were about revival: prayer, evangelism, soul winning, compilations of evangelistic messages. Many of his pamphlets were extended tracts. Ruckman had 141 published, with 28 being defenses of the KJV, by my count. Ruckman did have several evangelistic pamphlets, and one book on soul-winning
2. Family life: Rice had one wife, with six daughters who all married preachers and served God faithfully. (Four are still alive.) Many of the 28 grandchildren also serve Christ full time. Ruckman was married three times and divorced twice. He had ten children, but I've seen no record as to how many serve Christ. However, one son killed two of his grandchildren in a murder-suicide (Son, grandkids of controversial Pensacola pastor Peter Ruckman dead in murder-suicide, accessed 8/30/22).
3. Tract: Rice wrote a tract that has been printed in over 40 languages with over 46 million copies. Ruckman did write a pamphlet tract which I have, "Tell it Like it Is," but there is no record of how many have been printed in how many languages. Ruckman wrote several other pamphlets that were evangelistic.
4. Movements: Rice had a huge influence in fundamentalism and even in conservative evangelicalism, a fact recognized by many. Ruckman had a huge influence in starting the KJVO movement. Some consider that a plus. I consider it a total sidetrack of fundamental Christianity.
5. Influence: Rice's followers seek to win souls to Christ and spread revival. Ruckman's followers spend much time in defending him and the KJV, neither of which are commanded in Scripture. There have been four major biographies about him and several pamphlet length biographies. At last count there have been four PhD dissertations about him and his ministry. Ruckman wrote an autobiography.
So there it is. Am I prejudiced? Absolutely!
1. Authorship: Rice had over 200 books and pamphlets published. Of those, many were about revival: prayer, evangelism, soul winning, compilations of evangelistic messages. Many of his pamphlets were extended tracts. Ruckman had 141 published, with 28 being defenses of the KJV, by my count. Ruckman did have several evangelistic pamphlets, and one book on soul-winning
2. Family life: Rice had one wife, with six daughters who all married preachers and served God faithfully. (Four are still alive.) Many of the 28 grandchildren also serve Christ full time. Ruckman was married three times and divorced twice. He had ten children, but I've seen no record as to how many serve Christ. However, one son killed two of his grandchildren in a murder-suicide (Son, grandkids of controversial Pensacola pastor Peter Ruckman dead in murder-suicide, accessed 8/30/22).
3. Tract: Rice wrote a tract that has been printed in over 40 languages with over 46 million copies. Ruckman did write a pamphlet tract which I have, "Tell it Like it Is," but there is no record of how many have been printed in how many languages. Ruckman wrote several other pamphlets that were evangelistic.
4. Movements: Rice had a huge influence in fundamentalism and even in conservative evangelicalism, a fact recognized by many. Ruckman had a huge influence in starting the KJVO movement. Some consider that a plus. I consider it a total sidetrack of fundamental Christianity.
5. Influence: Rice's followers seek to win souls to Christ and spread revival. Ruckman's followers spend much time in defending him and the KJV, neither of which are commanded in Scripture. There have been four major biographies about him and several pamphlet length biographies. At last count there have been four PhD dissertations about him and his ministry. Ruckman wrote an autobiography.
So there it is. Am I prejudiced? Absolutely!
Last edited:
37818
Well-Known Member
How I might differ. But I hold all God's saved are in His church. I believe there are dispensations. I am not traditional dispensationalist. I do not see the seven letters to the seven messagers as dispensational church ages.
Well, we certainly agree on that. I have a whole lecture on what's wrong with the "seven church seven age" theory. I have to teach it carefully, though, since some of the students have learned it from their pastors. JRR did not believe the theory.
Now, consider how it sounds for a KJVO missionary to evangelize cross-culturally, win someone to Christ, and then tell them that the KJV is the only perfect Bible translation. My immediate thought would be, "Why can't I have a perfect Bible in my language??" And the KJVO missionary has no answer. I know, since I have asked that many times here--did a thread on it once. KJVO theology has no answer.
Almost o KJVO author has tried to produce a theology of the movement. The books are usually polemical, not theological. Steve Combs of the aforementioned Bearing Precious Seed Global has a book out, A Practical Theology of Bible Translating (2019). I commend his effort and his ministry. He serves as a translation consultant.
However, his book does not tell me how to get a perfect translation in Japanese. Here is the closest he comes: "If the KJB is an accurate translation (and it is), then by definition it is without error. However, it is not the inerrant Word of God by inspiration. It is the inerrant Word of God by providentially guided translation of words that were given by inspiration and then preserved" (p. 35, all italics his). Aha! We reach inerrancy by translating accurately. This is the Verbal Plenary Preservation (VPP) doctrine of H. D. Williams.
So how does VPP occur? In other words, how can I make it happen in Japanese? He says, "I find nothing in Scripture to back up the idea that God combined the Old and New Testaments into only one language, English, and that all other Bibles in other languages cannot be perfect. I find nothing in history to back it up..." (p. 60, his emphasis). Now we're talking...aren't we?
Alas, he never gets around to telling me how that works. But he is travelling down the right road. Near as I can tell, his way to get to a perfect translation is just to translate literally and accurately. However, he believes that God's providence is miraculous (p. 42). Biblically speaking, miracles are always events, while providence is a process. He doesn't continue the logic of providence by telling me how to get a miracle that will produce a perfect Japanese Bible--and that's what a perfect Bible has to be, a miracle.
Almost o KJVO author has tried to produce a theology of the movement. The books are usually polemical, not theological. Steve Combs of the aforementioned Bearing Precious Seed Global has a book out, A Practical Theology of Bible Translating (2019). I commend his effort and his ministry. He serves as a translation consultant.
However, his book does not tell me how to get a perfect translation in Japanese. Here is the closest he comes: "If the KJB is an accurate translation (and it is), then by definition it is without error. However, it is not the inerrant Word of God by inspiration. It is the inerrant Word of God by providentially guided translation of words that were given by inspiration and then preserved" (p. 35, all italics his). Aha! We reach inerrancy by translating accurately. This is the Verbal Plenary Preservation (VPP) doctrine of H. D. Williams.
So how does VPP occur? In other words, how can I make it happen in Japanese? He says, "I find nothing in Scripture to back up the idea that God combined the Old and New Testaments into only one language, English, and that all other Bibles in other languages cannot be perfect. I find nothing in history to back it up..." (p. 60, his emphasis). Now we're talking...aren't we?
Alas, he never gets around to telling me how that works. But he is travelling down the right road. Near as I can tell, his way to get to a perfect translation is just to translate literally and accurately. However, he believes that God's providence is miraculous (p. 42). Biblically speaking, miracles are always events, while providence is a process. He doesn't continue the logic of providence by telling me how to get a miracle that will produce a perfect Japanese Bible--and that's what a perfect Bible has to be, a miracle.
This is the end of the church age, not the beginning. God has not failed. If the Japanese needed a perfect Bible he would have given them one long before now. In all of the names you fellows believe to be great missionaries, preachers, evangelists, etc, none of them had Japanese names. What kind of names did they have? Well, they had English names. Why is that? Because the English speakers were given the word by God and they believed it. Believing it means they will preach it to others. We did not just get lucky. It was not circumstance and how the ole ball bounced.
Someone told me the Japanese did not have a Bible until about 150 years ago. I read in my KJV that Paul was chosen of God to take the scriptures to the gentiles. He began 3 missionary efforts from Antioch Syria. Who did he think the gentiles were? Well, he did not go east to Japan, China, and Japan and India. He went west all three times. He did not go south. I could not miss that. This is how God sent him. Did he ever get east of Antioch or south of Judah?
All I know is that when the showdown with the Jews came at the end of Paul's ministry in Acts 28 he was in a Roman prison and his last words we read in Acts is that the Jews would not hear and he would preach the gospel to the gentiles and they will hear it.
In eternity, God will show us why he did it this way. Until then we will just have to trust him.The Japanese do not need a Bible to be saved.God does not use a Bible to get people saved. The Gideons put Bibles in every hotel room in America for years and how long has it been since you heard a testimony of someone being saved because they read a Gideon Bible. A Bible did not help the eunuch in Acts 8. even though he was reading one. God had to send him a preacher.
Some people don't seem to weigh the evidence and think things through.
Someone told me the Japanese did not have a Bible until about 150 years ago. I read in my KJV that Paul was chosen of God to take the scriptures to the gentiles. He began 3 missionary efforts from Antioch Syria. Who did he think the gentiles were? Well, he did not go east to Japan, China, and Japan and India. He went west all three times. He did not go south. I could not miss that. This is how God sent him. Did he ever get east of Antioch or south of Judah?
All I know is that when the showdown with the Jews came at the end of Paul's ministry in Acts 28 he was in a Roman prison and his last words we read in Acts is that the Jews would not hear and he would preach the gospel to the gentiles and they will hear it.
In eternity, God will show us why he did it this way. Until then we will just have to trust him.The Japanese do not need a Bible to be saved.God does not use a Bible to get people saved. The Gideons put Bibles in every hotel room in America for years and how long has it been since you heard a testimony of someone being saved because they read a Gideon Bible. A Bible did not help the eunuch in Acts 8. even though he was reading one. God had to send him a preacher.
Some people don't seem to weigh the evidence and think things through.
Last edited:
Someone told me the Japanese did not have a Bible until about 150 years ago. I read in my KJV that Paul was chosen of God to take the scriptures to the gentiles. He began 3 missionary efforts from Antioch Syria. Who did he think the gentiles were? Well, he did not go east to Japan, China, and Japan and India. He went west all three times. He did not go south. I could not miss that. This is how God sent him. Did he ever get east of Antioch or south of Judah?
he went west due to the leading of God
remember they stood there in Acts pondering it, they were beckoned into Macedonia.
maybe they should have chartered a jet to the Far East?
BTW, you are aware that other Apostles did go East - Thomas et Al he founded the church in India
another went to Armenia etc
he went west due to the leading of God
remember they stood there in Acts pondering it, they were beckoned into Macedonia.
maybe they should have chartered a jet to the Far East?
BTW, you are aware that other Apostles did go East - Thomas et Al he founded the church in India
another went to Armenia etc
In eternity, God will show us why he did it this way. Until then we will just have to trust him.The Japanese do not need a Bible to be saved.God does not use a Bible to get people saved. The Gideons put Bibles in every hotel room in America for years and how long has it been since you heard a testimony of someone being saved because they read a Gideon Bible. A Bible did not help the eunuch in Acts 8. even though he was reading one. God had to send him a preacher.
You know none of that for certain
how do you know that God has not used the Gideons?
the Ethiopian did not have a KJV. He had the OT not a new one. He was hung up in Isaiah which would hang up anyone unfamiliar with the Life of Christ
as far as not needing a Bible. Interesting take on the matter and certainly not what happens in real missions.
Typically, the first 2 things that happen is that the Missionary learns the language and either translates, teaches the people to read the Bible or some such pattern
In fact, as someone who is indirectly involved in UPGs (India), I can assure you that you are incorrect 1,000%. UPG= Unreached People Group
You know none of that for certain
how do you know that God has not used the Gideons?
the Ethiopian did not have a KJV. He had the OT not a new one. He was hung up in Isaiah which would hang up anyone unfamiliar with the Life of Christ
as far as not needing a Bible. Interesting take on the matter and certainly not what happens in real missions.
Typically, the first 2 things that happen is that the Missionary learns the language and either translates, teaches the people to read the Bible or some such pattern
In fact, as someone who is indirectly involved in UPGs (India), I can assure you that you are incorrect 1,000%. UPG= Unreached People Group
Last edited:
Lipsius states that, according to the oldest form of the tradition, the apostles were divided into three groups: first, Peter and Andrew, Matthew and Bartholomew, who were said to have preached in the region of the Black Sea; second, Thomas, Thaddeus, and Simeon, the Canaanite, in Parthia; third, John and Philip, in Asia Minor.[3]
.The Japanese do not need a Bible to be saved.God does not use a Bible to get people saved.
There are literally thousands who were converted by reading scripture: Martin Luther, RC Sproul to name a couple
I would add my name to the list but I am of no consequence
I am sure there are others on the BB who were converted as well by reading scripture
You seem very strong towards a KJO position only to undermine it by saying that scripture is not necessary to be converted. That’s an interesting position to hold. Certainly, not a solid position, but definitely interesting.
There are literally thousands who were converted by reading scripture: Martin Luther, RC Sproul to name a couple
I would add my name to the list but I am of no consequence
I am sure there are others on the BB who were converted as well by reading scripture
You seem very strong towards a KJO position only to undermine it by saying that scripture is not necessary to be converted. That’s an interesting position to hold. Certainly, not a solid position, but definitely interesting.
- Status