King James Onlyism and Missions

[Marooncat79]

In eternity, God will show us why he did it this way. Until then we will just have to trust him.The Japanese do not need a Bible to be saved.God does not use a Bible to get people saved. The Gideons put Bibles in every hotel room in America for years and how long has it been since you heard a testimony of someone being saved because they read a Gideon Bible. A Bible did not help the eunuch in Acts 8. even though he was reading one. God had to send him a preacher.

You know none of that for certain

how do you know that God has not used the Gideons?

the Ethiopian did not have a KJV. He had the OT not a new one. He was hung up in Isaiah which would hang up anyone unfamiliar with the Life of Christ

as far as not needing a Bible. Interesting take on the matter and certainly not what happens in real missions.

Typically, the first 2 things that happen is that the Missionary learns the language and either translates, teaches the people to read the Bible or some such pattern

In fact, as someone who is indirectly involved in UPGs (India), I can assure you that you are incorrect 1,000%. UPG= Unreached People Group

Just to be clear, we support an indigenous pastor who goes out into the jungles of UPGs and plants churches. So far, he works with 8 other pastors and is discipling them. He lives in Bangalore Karnataka and works farther out from cities in small villages.

it is exciting to see God working there

 

[AVL1984]

Contrary to someones opinion here, the preaching of the cross (the Bible) is NECESSARY for salvation. The Bible makes that pretty clear. How some "Christians" can have such and make such "off-the-wall" statements as the Bible isn't necessary seems heretical to me. Maybe they're preaching and teaching a different Jesus.

 

[Salty]

Contrary to someones opinion here, the preaching of the cross (the Bible) is NECESSARY for salvation. ....

(bold my emphasis)

I think you are confusing having a book* called the Bible - with the message of the Bible.
A simple 1 or 2 page evangelistic track can help someone lead a person to the Lord. Many have come to the Lord thur listening to the Gospel on the Radio or TV!

And if you want to get very specific - the Bible tells us we must have a preacher! Would you agree a preacher is necessary? Lets take a look at Rom 10:14 "and how shall they hear without a preacher"? So according to the Bible, there must be a preacher!

How some "Christians" can have such and make such "off-the-wall" statements as a preacher isn't necessary seems heretical to me. Maybe they're preaching and teaching a different Jesus.


* YES, I realize technically it is 66 books!

 

[37818]

Contrary to someones opinion here, the preaching of the cross (the Bible) is NECESSARY for salvation.

Who? No one here on this BB has made any such denial.

 

[John of Japan]

5. Influence: Rice's followers seek to win souls to Christ and spread revival. Ruckman's followers spend much time in defending him and the KJV, neither of which are commanded in Scripture. There have been four major biographies about him and several pamphlet length biographies. At last count there have been four PhD dissertations about him and his ministry. Ruckman wrote an autobiography.

So there it is. Am I prejudiced? Absolutely!

Just to clarify, the biographies and dissertations are about Rice, and the autobiography is Ruckman's.

 

[John of Japan]

This is the end of the church age, not the beginning. God has not failed. If the Japanese needed a perfect Bible he would have given them one long before now. In all of the names you fellows believe to be great missionaries, preachers, evangelists, etc, none of them had Japanese names. What kind of names did they have? Well, they had English names. Why is that? Because the English speakers were given the word by God and they believed it. Believing it means they will preach it to others. We did not just get lucky. It was not circumstance and how the ole ball bounced.

So the Japanese are stronger people and more faith filled than English speaking people because they did not need a perfect Bible. Got it! Americans are weak in faith, so they need a perfect Bible. Got it!

And yes, there have been Japanese missionaries awesomely used of God. Americans don't know this not because it is false, but because they don't try to learn about Japan. I could list Nakada Juuji, my friend Tomioka, and others.

Other famous non-English speaking missionaries that were greatly used by God: Ulphilas, Patrick, Olopun (阿罗本), Rimitsu, Gutzlaff, Sung, Watchman Nee, and many, many others. I suggest you read a good book on the history of missions. Get your head out of the English-speaking world and think of God's plan for the whole world.

This is the problem with the KJVO view. It is stuck in the English speaking world. It doesn't realize that there are 2000 years of church history, and only a small portion of it is English speaking.

Someone told me the Japanese did not have a Bible until about 150 years ago. I read in my KJV that Paul was chosen of God to take the scriptures to the gentiles. He began 3 missionary efforts from Antioch Syria. Who did he think the gentiles were? Well, he did not go east to Japan, China, and Japan and India. He went west all three times. He did not go south. I could not miss that. This is how God sent him. Did he ever get east of Antioch or south of Judah?

All I know is that when the showdown with the Jews came at the end of Paul's ministry in Acts 28 he was in a Roman prison and his last words we read in Acts is that the Jews would not hear and he would preach the gospel to the gentiles and they will hear it.

And your point is?

In eternity, God will show us why he did it this way. Until then we will just have to trust him. The Japanese do not need a Bible to be saved.God does not use a Bible to get people saved. The Gideons put Bibles in every hotel room in America for years and how long has it been since you heard a testimony of someone being saved because they read a Gideon Bible. A Bible did not help the eunuch in Acts 8. even though he was reading one. God had to send him a preacher.

Yes, people do need the Bible to be saved. The KJV says so:
Romans 10:17, "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Hebrews 4:2, "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Some people don't seem to weigh the evidence and think things through.

Yes, I've noticed that. But you can do better if you try.

 

[JD731]

.The Japanese do not need a Bible to be saved.God does not use a Bible to get people saved.

There are literally thousands who were converted by reading scripture: Martin Luther, RC Sproul to name a couple

I would add my name to the list but I am of no consequence

I am sure there are others on the BB who were converted as well by reading scripture

You seem very strong towards a KJO position only to undermine it by saying that scripture is not necessary to be converted. That’s an interesting position to hold. Certainly, not a solid position, but definitely interesting.

The first epistle to the gentiles was Galatians, written in 49 AD by Paul. It was the second NT book written. James wrote an epistle to the 12 tribes of Israel who were scattered abroad in AD 45, but they had already heard the gospel. The first gentile who was saved was Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. No Bible was present. A man who had been saved and could tell others how to be saved is what it took. The GOSPEL is the power of God unto salvation. Bibles are for the converted, not the unconverted.

The word of God is four things. It is milk, bread, meat, honey, in that order. There is a growth process but first there must be a birth. If you read 1 Peter 1 you will find out that the seed is the word of God. That generates life just as does a physical seed that goes inside the body to produce life. Verse 12 in that chapter says they are in the fold because the gospel was preached to them. You should read that whole chapter and realize that it is Israel who is being addressed in that letter. If you fellows could rightly divide the scriptures you would not be so confused. Worse than that you can't be instructed.

 

[John of Japan]

I read about 10 pages of a serious book every night before bedtime. My current book is The Man from Odd, by Tom Wallace, a wonderful IFB pastor who was very kind to my wife and me on one furlough, then pastored our home church for a while. ("Odd" is the odd name of the little town he was born in.) His photo on the front shows a great big "Authorized KJV 1611" Bible, and in retirement they have been kind enough at the Sword of the Lord to give him an office and publish his book. The Sword is a KJVO organization nowadays, contrary to when my grandfather founded and led it. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Brother Wallace would call himself KJVO.

However, there is nothing about that in the book so far, and I'm mostly done. Instead, it tells about folks saved in the churches he pastored, his own efforts to win souls, wonderful miracles of people saved through his ministry, and--get this--over 50 countries he has preached the Gospel in! At one point he was the director of the board of BIMI, a large mission board.

So again my point. You can be a vocal and active defender of the KJV, or you can do your part to win the world to Christ and emphasize the Great Commission in your life. Matthew 6:24, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

 

[Marooncat79]

You mean this specific verse?

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

the one that calls the WoG incorruptible seed?

 

[Marooncat79]

For the record, I have never denied that salvation is apart from the reading or preaching of the WoG

 

[Marooncat79]

The first epistle to the gentiles was Galatians, written in 49 AD by Paul. It was the second NT book written. James wrote an epistle to the 12 tribes of Israel who were scattered abroad in AD 45, but they had already heard the gospel. The first gentile who was saved was Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. No Bible was present. A man who had been saved and could tell others how to be saved is what it took. The GOSPEL is the power of God unto salvation. Bibles are for the converted, not the unconverted.

The word of God is four things. It is milk, bread, meat, honey, in that order. There is a growth process but first there must be a birth. If you read 1 Peter 1 you will find out that the seed is the word of God. That generates life just as does a physical seed that goes inside the body to produce life. Verse 12 in that chapter says they are in the fold because the gospel was preached to them. You should read that whole chapter and realize that it is Israel who is being addressed in that letter. If you fellows could rightly divide the scriptures you would not be so confused. Worse than that you can't be instructed.

Just to be clear here on my end
If you are saying that people cannot be converted by reading the WoG alone that makes a Gospel Tract Ministry fanciful and irrelevant.

I will add that the pastor from Nepal that I work with was a Hindu Priest in training when we picked up a tract off the ground and read it. He says he was immediately converted and had never heard of Christ


Just an FYI

 

[John of Japan]

Now consider the very strange "ministry" of Gail Riplinger. Her website says, "A.V. Publications, Corp. is devoted to giving glory to the word of God, which he has magnified above his name (Ps. 138:2) and to "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). (AV Publications Shopping Cart)

That's a great illustration of my point. She wants to glorify the Bible, but the Bible never says to do that. It is God who has magnified His Word above His name (Psalm 128:2). We are not supposed to do that. To be zealous for the KJV means you are exalting the Bible, not the Giver of it.

Back to Riplinger. I could say a lot about her (and have), but my main point here is that because she writes so much defending the KJV (which needs no defense, since it is God's powerful Word; don't defend it, fight with it), she does almost nothing to obey the Great Commission.

Note that all of her books are about the KJV, and none about reaching the world for Christ (hopefully a complete list; I am not including DVDs, CDs, etc., but only books):

Blind Guides ($16.95)
Hazardous Materials ($24.95)
In Awe of Thy Word ($39.95)
New Age Bible Versions, 1993 ($14.95)
The Dictionary Inside the King James Bible ($11.97)
The Hidden History of the English Scriptures ($12.95)
The Language of the King James Bible ($19.95)
The Only Authorized Picture of Christ, with Gayle Russ ($19.95)
Which Bible Is God's Word? ($19.95)

Her website lists five tracts on the KJV issues, and YES! one Gospel tract, "Find Mayberry's Love, Joy, and Peace," based on the TV show, "Andy Griffith." I've not read it, so I don't know if it is a good presentation of the Gospel. But at least she does something. However, there is nothing about reaching the world for Christ on the whole website, unless you count her selling the "Spanish New Testament (1602 Purified)."

So, the point here again is not that Riplinger does nothing to obey the Great Commission, but that her full on defense of the KJV distracts from Great Commission fulfillment. You can either be strong on the Great Commission, or you can be strong on defending the KJV. You can't do both.

And again I'll say it: there is no command in the whole Bible to defend the Bible.

P. S. Don't know what she does with all that money from her books, but John R. Rice poured every bit of the profit from his 200 or more books into his ministry, saying, "Millions of dollars have passed through these hands, but praise God, none of it stuck!" My son is following his example, and sends all of the money from his books to missionaries. (He wrote the research commentaries for Logos on 1 & 2 Peter and Jude, and a couple of other books.)

 

[Marooncat79]

The word of God is four things. It is milk, bread, meat, honey, in that order.

Can you please show me that in scripture?

TIA

 

[Salty]

John, excellent post for # 48
This KJVO for salvation, made me think of a TV show, I saw several years ago.
The show was Head of the Class. It was about several honors students in an advance High school class.
In Season 3 - Teens from a Russian School meet up with Head of the class. One of the Russian students is speaking in not quite perfect English. One of the American students tells the Russian that he is not impressed with his lack of speaking proper English. The Russian Reto.rts that the American has absolutely no knowledge of speaking Russian.

And, John - as you said - so many Americans are like that. Their only knowledge of foreign counties/missions is that we support international missions.
And I suppose the same would hold true for different areas of the USA.
If fact, I wonder how many of us have very little if any experiences outside our own State/Commonwealth.
(I started a poll about travel) check out this My Travel resume

 

[Reformed1689]

This is the end of the church age, not the beginning. God has not failed. If the Japanese needed a perfect Bible he would have given them one long before now. In all of the names you fellows believe to be great missionaries, preachers, evangelists, etc, none of them had Japanese names. What kind of names did they have? Well, they had English names. Why is that? Because the English speakers were given the word by God and they believed it. Believing it means they will preach it to others. We did not just get lucky. It was not circumstance and how the ole ball bounced.

Someone told me the Japanese did not have a Bible until about 150 years ago. I read in my KJV that Paul was chosen of God to take the scriptures to the gentiles. He began 3 missionary efforts from Antioch Syria. Who did he think the gentiles were? Well, he did not go east to Japan, China, and Japan and India. He went west all three times. He did not go south. I could not miss that. This is how God sent him. Did he ever get east of Antioch or south of Judah?

All I know is that when the showdown with the Jews came at the end of Paul's ministry in Acts 28 he was in a Roman prison and his last words we read in Acts is that the Jews would not hear and he would preach the gospel to the gentiles and they will hear it.

In eternity, God will show us why he did it this way. Until then we will just have to trust him.The Japanese do not need a Bible to be saved.God does not use a Bible to get people saved. The Gideons put Bibles in every hotel room in America for years and how long has it been since you heard a testimony of someone being saved because they read a Gideon Bible. A Bible did not help the eunuch in Acts 8. even though he was reading one. God had to send him a preacher.

Some people don't seem to weigh the evidence and think things through.

Can we get this arrogant blasphemous trash off of this forum? I mean really.

 

[John of Japan]

John, excellent post for # 48
This KJVO for salvation, made me think of a TV show, I saw several years ago.
The show was Head of the Class. It was about several honors students in an advance High school class.
In Season 3 - Teens from a Russian School meet up with Head of the class. One of the Russian students is speaking in not quite perfect English. One of the American students tells the Russian that he is not impressed with his lack of speaking proper English. The Russian Reto.rts that the American has absolutely no knowledge of speaking Russian.

I love it! Japanese students get six years of English in Jr. High & High School. Most of them don't speak it that well, the curriculum being mostly grammar. But the average Japanese does far better at English than the typical American at any other language!

And, John - as you said - so many Americans are like that. Their only knowledge of foreign counties/missions is that we support international missions.
And I suppose the same would hold true for different areas of the USA.

As you know, I've traveled widely in the US on deputation and furloughs. The ignorance of most Americans about the outside world is appalling. I'm fully convinced that this ignorance is partly what fuels the KJVO movement.

If fact, I wonder how many of us have very little if any experiences outside our own State/Commonwealth.
(I started a poll about travel) check out this My Travel resume

Great idea! I participated.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

The first epistle to the gentiles was Galatians, written in 49 AD by Paul. It was the second NT book written. James wrote an epistle to the 12 tribes of Israel who were scattered abroad in AD 45, but they had already heard the gospel. The first gentile who was saved was Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. No Bible was present. A man who had been saved and could tell others how to be saved is what it took. The GOSPEL is the power of God unto salvation. Bibles are for the converted, not the unconverted.

The word of God is four things. It is milk, bread, meat, honey, in that order. There is a growth process but first there must be a birth. If you read 1 Peter 1 you will find out that the seed is the word of God. That generates life just as does a physical seed that goes inside the body to produce life. Verse 12 in that chapter says they are in the fold because the gospel was preached to them. You should read that whole chapter and realize that it is Israel who is being addressed in that letter. If you fellows could rightly divide the scriptures you would not be so confused. Worse than that you can't be instructed.

My KJV shows in 1 Peter 1:1 that the letter was addressed to five locations in Asia Minor, undoubtedly local churches and possibly those churches were mainly converted Jews. Not sure if that qualifies as being addressed to Israel.

 

[John of Japan]

@JD731

Here are some excellent missions histories for you (or anyone else) to educate yourself about the big wide world of Christians before the English language existed, and outside of the English speaking world after the English language developed:

Encountering the History of Missions, by John Mark Terry and Robert L. Gallagher. This is a very new book (2017). I'm reading it now as the probable textbook for a new course we are developing, "History of Missiology." So far it's really good.

History of Christianity in Asia, 2 vol., by Samuel Hugh Moffett. This is an incredible account. I learned so much about Syrian and Persian Christianity and the awesome missionaries they sent out in the early centuries. Hmm. Maybe the Peshitta is the true perfect preserved Word of God.

The Light in Dark Ages, by V. Raymond Edman. A true classic, hard to get ahold of nowadays. Edman was evangelical and evangelistic, president of Wheaton College when my parents were there in the 1940's.

A History of Christian Missions, by Stephen Neill. Excellent!

A Concise History of the Christian World Mission, rev., by J. Herbert Kane, a leading missiologist of the 20th century. An excellent work for the KJVO believer who wants to cautiously get started.

From Jerusalem to Irian Jaya, 2nd ed., by Ruth A. Tucker. This biographical history is a standard textbook for the history of missions nowadays. A fascinating read!

Also, a couple of reference books that discuss many historical missionaries, most of whom never heard of the KJV:

Who Was Who in Church History, rev., by Elgin S. Moyer. This is a fascinating book. I consult it over and over.

Evangelical Dictionary of World Missions, ed. by A. Scott Moreau. This is an incredible book, a must have for anyone interested in the history of missions.

 

[JD731]

Just to be clear here on my end
If you are saying that people cannot be converted by reading the WoG alone that makes a Gospel Tract Ministry fanciful and irrelevant.

I will add that the pastor from Nepal that I work with was a Hindu Priest in training when we picked up a tract off the ground and read it. He says he was immediately converted and had never heard of Christ


Just an FYI

Well, that settles it. Just send bibles. It is much easier anyways. Some of you just try to miss the point. Now, in your mind I am saying tracts are scripture. I just don't understand you guys.

Compare Paul's sermon in Acts 13, where his audience were primarily Jews. He quoted the OT to prove who Jesus is because they were familiar with the OT. That was their life. Now, look at his sermon in Athens in Acts 17 to none but gentiles. No mention of the scriptures. He is preaching a person who has secured salvation for every one who will listen to someone who knows how to be saved because he has experienced salvation. Salvation for gentiles begins at the person of Jesus Christ, who is God come in the flesh to pay the penalty for our sins, which is death. He did that for us, and God raised him from the dead. God can give us life through this man, Jesus Christ. It is that simple.

 

[Salty]

My KJV shows in 1 Peter 1:1 that the letter was addressed to five locations in Asia Minor, undoubtedly local churches and possibly those churches were mainly converted Jews. Not sure if that qualifies as being addressed to Israel.

Guess what - most - if not ALL versions say the same thing!