37818
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What are translated in the KJV titles "General" Epistles, the word "General" in the Greek, transliterates as "Catholic."
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King James Onlyism and Missions
- Thread starter John of Japan
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I am saying the KJV was a product of the Church of England (the English church was a combination of Church and government).
Yes, I know what it means to combine Church and State. I also know what it means to blend government and Church.
Withdrawing from the RCC because they did not support the State and forming a RCC-ish Church influenced by the government fits this definition.
I notice you did not mention the mandates imposed on the translators of the KJV by the government (that the KJV was to reflect King James' position on bishops, counter Puritian theology, etc.).
I notice you did not mention that the KJV was sponsored by the government.
Wonder why.
@JD731
In 1973, Ruckmanite Herbert Evans wrote a pamphlet, DEAR Dr. JOHN: Where is my bible? That's the exact title as on the pamphlet, capitals at first, and then totally failing to capitalize "Bible." It was an unethical pamphlet, since it printed private correspondence without the permission of the writer, my grandfather. But more than that, this Ruckmanite showed me by the very title that he did not even respect the KJV.
Why is it that KJVO folks like yourself are so careless about this seemingly trivial, but ultimately revealing point?
Will you please capitalize "Bible"? It's God's Word.
In 1973, Ruckmanite Herbert Evans wrote a pamphlet, DEAR Dr. JOHN: Where is my bible? That's the exact title as on the pamphlet, capitals at first, and then totally failing to capitalize "Bible." It was an unethical pamphlet, since it printed private correspondence without the permission of the writer, my grandfather. But more than that, this Ruckmanite showed me by the very title that he did not even respect the KJV.
Why is it that KJVO folks like yourself are so careless about this seemingly trivial, but ultimately revealing point?
According to the Link - No, he did not
To some extant - but as time went on -- and now there have been several splits of Anglican/Episcopalian churches.
Here is a list of A/E denominations in the North America
Now back to the OP. I want to mention D. A. Waite. (Who by the way many years ago printed a letter by me without permission--see my previous post--so that our mission board director wrote him and told him to cease and desist. This was before Waite put an essay by H. D. Williams on his website--still there--that attacked everything about my character except my mother.)
Now first of all, I do respect Waite's very genuine advanced degrees. Unfortunately, the IFB movement is replete with men with fake degrees. However, Waite (and Ruckman!) went to the trouble of getting real degrees, which takes a lot of hard work, not to mention money and time. And nothing I say here should be construed as a personal attack on Waite.
But now consider what his church is all about: The Bible For Today Baptist Church. It's all about defending the KJV. Waite wrote on that page: "The overarching purpose of THE BIBLE FOR TODAY is to proclaim and to defend the principles of the Bible. . . . Philippians 1:7 . . ."
Look at that verse. It says, "Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace." So it clearly does not say "the defence of the Bible," but of the Gospel. There is a distinct difference between the Bible (OT & NT) and the Gospel. We defend the Gospel against JW's, Mormons, Moonies, the liberals, the Catholics, and others who deny the deity of Christ and/or add works to the Gospel. That is the defense of the Gospel, and Paul did it well, as witness the awesome book of Galatians.
But Waite and his church are all about defending the Bible, something never commanded in the Bible. So, the whole webpage has nothing about missions whatsoever. It does have a few verses about salvation, and a link to a page with more Bible verses and an invitation to receive Christ--which nonetheless has nothing about the resurrection of Christ, an essential part of the Gospel.
Now, on that page there is a link to "Our Missionaries." See it here: The Missionaries Our Church Supports
Labeled as "Serving on the Foreign Field" are The Bible for Today (Waite's own organization), the Dean Burgon Society, a couple in S. Carolina, The Prisoner's Bible Organization (a ministry of Waite's church). There are only 3 missionary couples actually on foreign fields, though the website says they are all on foreign fields. And there are three organizations headed by Waite. I'm glad I never went there for support when I was a missionary! (But he probably wouldn't have had me, to be fair.)
So again, my point is if you spend that much time defending the KJV (something God never commanded), you may have little time and money left to promote reaching the world for Christ.
Now first of all, I do respect Waite's very genuine advanced degrees. Unfortunately, the IFB movement is replete with men with fake degrees. However, Waite (and Ruckman!) went to the trouble of getting real degrees, which takes a lot of hard work, not to mention money and time. And nothing I say here should be construed as a personal attack on Waite.
But now consider what his church is all about: The Bible For Today Baptist Church. It's all about defending the KJV. Waite wrote on that page: "The overarching purpose of THE BIBLE FOR TODAY is to proclaim and to defend the principles of the Bible. . . . Philippians 1:7 . . ."
Look at that verse. It says, "Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace." So it clearly does not say "the defence of the Bible," but of the Gospel. There is a distinct difference between the Bible (OT & NT) and the Gospel. We defend the Gospel against JW's, Mormons, Moonies, the liberals, the Catholics, and others who deny the deity of Christ and/or add works to the Gospel. That is the defense of the Gospel, and Paul did it well, as witness the awesome book of Galatians.
But Waite and his church are all about defending the Bible, something never commanded in the Bible. So, the whole webpage has nothing about missions whatsoever. It does have a few verses about salvation, and a link to a page with more Bible verses and an invitation to receive Christ--which nonetheless has nothing about the resurrection of Christ, an essential part of the Gospel.
Now, on that page there is a link to "Our Missionaries." See it here: The Missionaries Our Church Supports
Labeled as "Serving on the Foreign Field" are The Bible for Today (Waite's own organization), the Dean Burgon Society, a couple in S. Carolina, The Prisoner's Bible Organization (a ministry of Waite's church). There are only 3 missionary couples actually on foreign fields, though the website says they are all on foreign fields. And there are three organizations headed by Waite. I'm glad I never went there for support when I was a missionary! (But he probably wouldn't have had me, to be fair.)
So again, my point is if you spend that much time defending the KJV (something God never commanded), you may have little time and money left to promote reaching the world for Christ.
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KJV-only author Sam Gipp is not a very reliable source.
The 1611 edition's title page stated: "Appointed to be read in Churches" [meaning the state churches]. The large-size 1611 edition was clearly intended for churches.
The 1611 KJV is considered to be the third authorized version of the state church--the Church of England [the 1539 Great Bible was the first, and the 1568 Bishops' Bible was the second].
Mark 16:15 says, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the awesomeness of the KJV to every creature." Oh, wait, it says "the Gospel," not "the awesomeness of the KJV."
John 20:21 says, "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me to defend the KJV, even so send I you." Oops, wrong again. The Bible doesn't say "to defend the KJV."
Let's try the OT. Daniel 12:3 says, "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to the KJV as the stars for ever and ever." Nope, doesn't say that. The Bible doesn't say we must defend it.
Here we go. Proverbs 11:30, "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth people to the KJV is wise." Nope, it says "He that winneth souls is wise."
This is not rocket science. The Bible is clear that we are to get the Bible to everyone on earth, and win souls, and disciple them, and plant them into churches. Here we are, Baptists, and one important Baptist distinctive is "The Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice." So, anyone who claims to be a Baptist and yet works hard to defend one particular version is not acting according Scripture in either faith or practice. There is a Great Commission to reach the world for Christ, but no commission to defend the KJV.
John 20:21 says, "Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me to defend the KJV, even so send I you." Oops, wrong again. The Bible doesn't say "to defend the KJV."
Let's try the OT. Daniel 12:3 says, "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to the KJV as the stars for ever and ever." Nope, doesn't say that. The Bible doesn't say we must defend it.
Here we go. Proverbs 11:30, "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth people to the KJV is wise." Nope, it says "He that winneth souls is wise."
This is not rocket science. The Bible is clear that we are to get the Bible to everyone on earth, and win souls, and disciple them, and plant them into churches. Here we are, Baptists, and one important Baptist distinctive is "The Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice." So, anyone who claims to be a Baptist and yet works hard to defend one particular version is not acting according Scripture in either faith or practice. There is a Great Commission to reach the world for Christ, but no commission to defend the KJV.
Your overall reasoning in this thread is somewhat childish and maybe even a sign of carnality and immaturity. We are warned in 1 Cor 1 against the kinds of division you are advocating among Christians and the things you have proposed above are not necessarily scriptural. We, as saints, positionally, that is those who are "in Christ" are "called" to be saints by having a sanctified life style. Our life should match our exalted position as children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.
I am getting this from 1 Corinthians 1, only the fourth epistle Paul wrote to the primitive church. By that I mean they did not have a Bible yet. This was written in 54 AD. This will be however, instruction for Corinth, and Achaia, and by extension, all churches throughout the age. Here is one important subject Paul deals with and is the reason I am thinking of them when I read your Christian philosophy and note your behavior. I will quote a few verse that can speak for themselves from 2 or three chapters in this epistle. See if you see yourself in them anywhere.
1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours (Jews and gentiles).
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
Now, Paul will speak of this being called into fellowship with Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now, being called into fellowship, since all the saved are in Christ, he is speaking about other Christians as well, when they are together. Watch this. This is the first thing he says in his instructions to the Corinthians.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Now, you folk who are arguing that a Bible had to be present when the preaching was going on, take the following instruction and adjust you mindset accordingly. There was no NT in existence yet and Paul said that he was preaching the gospel. One does not need a written Bible on his person to preach the gospel.
1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
God was going to reveal by Paul the wisdom of God in a mystery to these Corinthians, but because of their immaturity and carnality he could not do it. It was delayed for six more years until he wrote to the more mature church of Ephesus. I will show you what God says his wisdom is in my next comments. There will be no doubt for the Bible believer.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
There are 3 kinds of men in the church at Corinth. The natural man who will never understand the spiritual content of scripture, for obvious reasons.
The saved, but carnal man, giving in to the whims of the flesh and drinking milk like a baby. He will never understand the mysteries, and probably will never even know there are such things in the NT scriptures.
Thirdly, there is the spiritual man, the man who searches the words of the scriptures and is taught of the Spirit. He has the mind of Christ, the savior who got every word he spoke from God the Father, See Jn 12 now.
And please dear folks, if you feel you need to comment, don't make silly ignorant statements. I will come back with more information on this subject. I want to help.
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You seem incorrectly to assume that your human KJV-only reasoning is superior when it actually involves use of fallacies. Perhaps you should teach yourself some scriptural truths such as the scripturally-based truths that the preservation of the Scriptures concerns the preserving of the same original-language words given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles, that the word of God is not bound to the textual criticism decisions, Bible revision decisions, and translation decisions of one exclusive group of Church of England critics in 1611, that the wisdom from God above is without partiality while human wisdom shows partiality to the KJV translators, that use of divers measures [double standards such as the different measures used for other English Bible translations that are not also applied to the KJV] is an abomination to the LORD, and that teaching a human doctrine of men or opinions of men as being a doctrine of God is wrong.
By use of fallacies such as begging the question, special pleading, the fallacy of false dilemma, the fallacy of composition, you may make and believe claims for the KJV that are not true. By believing things that are not true you deceive yourself concerning those things.
The difference between you and me, LG 1560, is that I quote the scriptures to prove my theology and you quote thousands of the worldly wise men, who has led you astray. You refuse to quote scriptures and your philosophy comes out of your own heart. The men you quote is your authority. Many are blind leaders of the blind and the ditch looms ahead for you and them.
There is a fix to this. It is called repentance. You must first understand that the course of action you have laid out for yourself is wrong. If you don't do that there is no hope for you. You will just merely stay the course.
You should evaluate your ministry. It is 100% negative. You always condemn and never attempt any encouragement. You never deal with the subject of any thread. You obsess over KJV believers. You must be miserable with a ministry like this. It is one track. You don't help anybody. You need to start over and try to do better.
Your accusations are not true, and they bear false witness. Disagreeing with your human opinions does not lead to the incorrect conclusions to which you have jumped. You are very negative towards anyone who disagrees with your opinions.
My view of Bible translations comes from the Scriptures. My view of inspiration and preservation of the Scriptures comes from the Scriptures. I believe and accept all that the Scriptures state and teach about themselves. I have referred to the many scripture references that teach my scripturally-based points, and I have cited and quoted several of those verses. I do not present the same verses over and over because I assume that believers already know what the scripture references state. I present a more positive view of Bible translations than your negative view concerning English Bible translations besides the KJV.
Your own KJV-only philosophy may come out of your own heart and mind, and not directly from the Scriptures since the Scriptures do not state what you claim for the KJV. You have failed to prove your KJV-only opinions to be true from the Scriptures.
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It is typical of people who cannot answer arguments that they turn to insults. So I'm the one who is childish and carnal and immature? I remember when I was a child and other kids responded with name-calling when they couldn't speak to the subject. That is what you are doing.
So give me one single command in Scripture--just one!--where God told you to defend the KJV.
All of this is irrelevant to the OP. I ask again, where in the Bible is your mandate to defend the Word of God? And what are you doing to fulfill the Great Commission?
Once again, my whole thesis for this thread is that we are commanded to reach the world for Christ, and those who spend their time defending the KJV are usually doing little to obey the Great Commission.
I am so blessed to be here in our college as a missions teacher, and in our seminary teaching Bible translation. Several of my students have graduated and are currently on deputation to be missionaries. I always enjoy talking to them when they are home: A is a graduate of our MA in Bible Translation and is going to N. Africa to evangelize and lead a Bible translation effort. M got the regular MA and is going to the Philippines to plant churches. W got the regular MA and is going to plant churches in Canada. Pray for these three men if you will, that God will lead them to their future wives. All three are single, yet bravely headed out to reach the world for Christ.
A T is an African grad of our seminary, now back in Africa. He recently emailed me asking for my dispensationalism notes to teach them, and I happily sent them off to him. I am deeply grateful to have had the opportunity to travel to Africa some years ago to train Bible translators. Another African, A S, was in my office the other day talking doctrine. He has our MA, and plans to go back to his homeland where his adoptive parents are missionaries. I can't wait to see what God will do with him!
M is an Iranian grad of our seminary, now out in full time ministry. He got our MA in Bible translation, and has been working on an OT in his language. It would take too much time to list here all that this incredible man is doing for Christ.
This is my legacy--not a defense of the KJV, a Book that needs no defense. Like I tell my students, "Don't defend it. It's a sword. Go out and stab the devil with it!" And that is exactly what these young missionaries are doing!
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John, May I quote you on that?
Certainly!
Your behavior has been reprehensible here. You have shown no class in your responses and you have not even understood my comments and why I make them. No doubt you have bitterness in your soul because of how you perceive that your granddad was treated by Mr Ruckman, so it seems your answer is to lump all those of us together who believes that God is capable of, and has in fact given us a perfect testimony of himself in the English language and attack us as one and the same. And, you will find no rhetoric where I have defended the KJV outside the context of my defending myself against piranha - like attacks from you fellows. And you will never find me holding Peter Ruckman or Gail Riplinger out as Christian models.
You, on the other hand, who have pitted one teacher against another in all your comments, and according to the passages I referred to in 1 Cor 1-3, some of which I quoted, and which defines immaturity and carnality, you fit the description. Why not just admit it and apologize and we can move on. I can do that in either case. I am doing that.
The admonition of speaking the same things as touching the testimony of Jesus Christ cannot be accomplished in a congregation with multiple translations, all of them saying different words.
Yeah, whatever. This certainly does not address the OP. You can't answer me, so you attack me personally. And in doing so try to sidetrack the thread and disobey the BB rules.
Again, give me one single command in Scripture--just one!--where God told you to defend the KJV.
I am not defending the KJV, but you know that. Logos1560 makes every thread about the KJV. I cannot think of any way for me to care less what Bible translation you prefer or what you think about the KJV. What is that to me?
Having said that, what did you want to discuss by naming your thread KJVonlism and missions. All the KJV churches that I am familiar with gives by the faith promise method and some gives incredible amounts, some exceeding one million dollars annually. To charge that KJVO believers are not concerned with missions is because they are too concerned with defending the KJV Bible is just showing an unconcern for knowing what you are talking about. It is a false charge against some wonderful believers who sacrifice to give and it should not happen.
Our college divides the students into four "fellowship" for various competitions and, of course, just for fellowship. Today we had a little fun ceremony to let each freshman know what fellowship they were going to be in: darkened cafeteria, an announcer, lots of cheers and fun.
We have four fellowships, each named after a famous missionary: (Adoniram) Judson, (Hudson) Taylor, (J. O.) Fraser, and (Jonathan) Goforth. The kids have a wonderful time, and it does my old heart good to watch them.
Judson was sent to Burma, and had to translate the Bible himself--but only after learning the language with a tutor, writing his own Burmese dictionary and grammar and tracts and follow-up material. The best biography of Judson is The Life of Adoniram Judson, by his son Edward. In that book, Judson’s method of translation is described: “The work of translating was done thoroughly and conscientiously. Every Hebrew and Greek word was turned as far as possible into its exact Burmese equivalent. The Greek word for baptism was justly translated into Burmese, Ya-hneat mengalali, that is, the water-bathing or immersing religious rite.”[1] Again, a letter from Judson’s wife says, “With all this, he has told me that he felt, when making his translation, an almost overpowering sense of the awfulness of his work, and an ever-present conviction that every word was as from the lips of God.” [2] Judson himself said, “I have endeavored, I hope successfully, to make every sentence a faithful representation of the original.”[3]
[1] Edward Judson, The Life of Adoniram Judson (New York: Anson D. F. Randolf and Co., 1883), 408.
[2] Ibid., 413.
[3] Ibid.
As you can see, Judson was not KJVO in any way, shape or form. Again, it is very hard to be completely KJVO when ministering cross-culturally. The problem with most Americans is that they never learn another language, so they are never able to read the Bible in a foreign language. This means they do not know how language works, nor can they comprehend the art of Bible translation.
We have four fellowships, each named after a famous missionary: (Adoniram) Judson, (Hudson) Taylor, (J. O.) Fraser, and (Jonathan) Goforth. The kids have a wonderful time, and it does my old heart good to watch them.
Judson was sent to Burma, and had to translate the Bible himself--but only after learning the language with a tutor, writing his own Burmese dictionary and grammar and tracts and follow-up material. The best biography of Judson is The Life of Adoniram Judson, by his son Edward. In that book, Judson’s method of translation is described: “The work of translating was done thoroughly and conscientiously. Every Hebrew and Greek word was turned as far as possible into its exact Burmese equivalent. The Greek word for baptism was justly translated into Burmese, Ya-hneat mengalali, that is, the water-bathing or immersing religious rite.”[1] Again, a letter from Judson’s wife says, “With all this, he has told me that he felt, when making his translation, an almost overpowering sense of the awfulness of his work, and an ever-present conviction that every word was as from the lips of God.” [2] Judson himself said, “I have endeavored, I hope successfully, to make every sentence a faithful representation of the original.”[3]
[1] Edward Judson, The Life of Adoniram Judson (New York: Anson D. F. Randolf and Co., 1883), 408.
[2] Ibid., 413.
[3] Ibid.
As you can see, Judson was not KJVO in any way, shape or form. Again, it is very hard to be completely KJVO when ministering cross-culturally. The problem with most Americans is that they never learn another language, so they are never able to read the Bible in a foreign language. This means they do not know how language works, nor can they comprehend the art of Bible translation.
Once again, you missed the point. The thread is about a certain group within KJV Onlyism. Go back and read what I've already clearly written in the thread. I have some dear friends who are KJVO and passionate about missions.
I don't have time today, and don't have the documents with me, but early next week I'll post about a certain megachurch pastor I knew who changed, and what the changes meant.
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