King James Onlyism and Missions

[HeirofSalvation]

JD...He's a guy who wants to use his KJV...

Why do you argue with him?
Why does it spin you into a dimension of so incredibly pissed-off, that there's one KJVO left in this world?
John of Japan appreciates Logos 1560 spending DECADES of his life worried about NOTHING ELSE than that there happens to be a random KJVO person still remaining:

Who cares?

John cares.

John who supposedly gave up the greater part of his life and youth to reach the people of Japan (for whom this is a non-issue)

John cares.

John inexplicably cares passionately.
Also Logos 1560: who has never been interested in any other topic whatsoever......and you've never called him on it..Because you agree with his conclusions....(Me too, but, he's wasted his life tilting at windmills)

That is to say...I agree with Logos's basic conclusion:
And he's pathetically wasted his life worrying about a non-issue on a non-topic no one even cares about.

pbttthhh......

The KJVO folks are a lot of things, an enemy of the gospel and the Great Commission, they are not.

 

[Logos1560]

Logos 1560: who has never been interested in any other topic whatsoever......

Your accusation is simply not true. You may assume incorrectly or may think that you can read my mind.

I am interested in many topics, and I have read and studied about them.

Believing and advocating sound Bible doctrine would also involve opposing non-scriptural false teaching which would include KJV-onlyism. The KJV-only teaching of some that would make salvation depend upon use of the KJV does harm the Bible doctrine of salvation. The doctrine of sanctification and Christian service is also affected by some aspects of KJV-only teaching.

Are you objecting to my reading and studying the KJV for over 50 years? I am not objecting to anyone reading the KJV. What I oppose is making claims for the KJV that are not true and making allegations against other English Bibles that are not true or that are based on use of double standards.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Your accusation is simply not true. You may assume incorrectly or may think that you can read my mind.

It's an observation about which topics you post about and seem to take interest in. This one seems to dominate about 90% of all your posts. It has nothing to do with mind-reading.

I am interested in many topics, and I have read and studied about them.

O.k. fair enough.

Believing and advocating sound Bible doctrine would also involve opposing non-scriptural false teaching which would include KJV-onlyism.

Agreed.
But, the same standard holds for some KJVO folks. To them, this is a serious issue. If they genuinely believe that bad English translations are doing harm to the cause of Christ or to sound doctrine, than it is incumbent upon them to address the issue. John seems to believe that they should ignore it.

The KJV-only teaching of some that would make salvation depend upon use of the KJV does harm the Bible doctrine of salvation.

Some, yes. I know of none on this board. I know of no Ruckmanites on this board either. When they raise their ugly heads, perhaps that is time for whack-a-mole. I know the staunchest KJV defenders here believe no such thing.

Are you objecting to my reading and studying the KJV for over 50 years?

Why would you even ask that? Did I object to it? If so, where?

 

[John of Japan]

Two things are wrong in this entire thread.

1 John of Japan has consistently failed to elucidate what the "Great Commission" is... and, while he's spoken in detail of the "soul-winning" passion of his grampa. (we know this, he's preached it constantly for decades now).

I quoted all five Scriptural statements of the Great Commission. To me that was sufficient. They are all plain.

Are you asking for an exegesis of the five clear statements? I can do that.

John has spoken passionately about "soul-winning".

That is absolutely NOT the "Great Commission".

The Matthew 28:19 statement to "teach all nations" is translating the Greek word matheteuo (μαθητεύω). Now, to make a disciple you have to win him to Christ--thus, I do believe that soul-winning is in the Great Commission. God wants us in the power of the Holy Spirit (not our own power) to actually see Him save souls.

The KJV rendering of Matthew 28:20 as "teach all nations" (Greek matheteuo, instead of "make disciples," is misleading, since the KJV then says, "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you." So the first and second "teach" have different meanings. The first one is to "make disciples" (win them to Christ), and the second is teaching the Christian life.

2.) John has argued passionately that a "KJVO" belief is inherently adverse to missions....It simply does not follow that it is.

No, this is NOT what I have argued. I'm sorry you have misunderstood. Either you did not read what I have posted carefully or completely enough, or you have not understood what I have written. In fact, in my previous post (#119), I clearly said, "There are many good KJVO people who love missions and seek to obey the Great Commission. Some of them are dear friends of mine. This thread was not about them."

Now, allow me to "Pipe in" for about three seconds:

I'm NOT KJVO. I used to be.

The KJVO Church I belonged to gave over $ 250,000.00 to foreign missions every year.
It was a church of less than 400 people.

I can send you the link to said Church: Great Hope Baptist Church

I no longer belong to it.
I am no longer KJVO only.

I know that JOJ has spent an innumerable amount of time suggesting that KJVO Churches are wasting their time by being KJVO.

Again, that is not what I said. You are misrepresenting me. My main point has been that if you seek to defend the KJV you are wasting your time, since the Bible never commands us to defend the Bible. However, there are many KJVO folks who do not do this, but simply go on their way seeking to obey Christ. Believing that the KJV is the only translation we should use in English is not tantamount to defending it.

He has never once Suggested that Logos 1560 (who does nothing whatsoever but lambast KJVO)....
Is accomplishing nothing for the Great Commission (he isn't, he's spent his life battling a non-issue)

The KJVO only crowd is so small and irrelevant at this point that it's pathetic to argue with them.

Leave them alone.
Let them be....

I know Logos1560 personally. I see no need to rebuke him for not obeying the Great Commission.

And John..You've talked about "Soul-winning" over and over and over in this thread.
And you've failed to elucidate to the readers that that is NOT the "Great Commission".
You're so dedicated to attacking the KJVO folks (like LOGOS 1560 who spends his life doing it and nothing else).
That you've failed to appreciate that "Soul-winning" isn't the "Great Commission".

Correctly define the "Great Commission" (you could use an NIV if you feel like it ) and then you have an argument.
So far, you have failed to correctly define it.

No need for this repetition of your point. Please see my answer above.

 

[John of Japan]

Since HeirofSalvation wants an explanation of the Great Commission, here are the notes for a lecture on the subject from a class on missions that I teach. (It will take two or three posts to get through.)


The Five Great Commissions

INTRODUCTION: It may be more proper to say there were five statements of one Great Commission. Be that as it may, each statement is quite different, with different emphases. In this lecture we will examine both the differences and the similarities.

There are several elements that are common to all of the five statements. First of all, they all indicate the need for power from God, the power of the Holy Spirit. Secondly, they are all five about proclaiming a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ. Thirdly, they all indicate the place where this should take place: in every nation. Taking these congruent elements, and adding the unique elements of each Great Commission statement, we will end up with a comprehensive plan for fulfilling the last command of Christ.


I. The Church Planter (Matthew 28:16-20)

A. The target audience was “the eleven disciples” (v. 16). This refers specifically to the leadership of the disciples, the eleven apostles. However, since the authoritative term “apostle” is not used here, we can apply this commission to a wider group than just the eleven.

B. This may be considered to be church leadership, but not specifically to the church as a body. We have no record of anyone baptizing in the New Testament except duly called preachers. This does not make it a sin, but merely a very rare necessity.

C. The command to baptize makes it the church planting Great Commission.

"The Great Commission is not just a call to ‘make disciples but to ‘baptize.’ In Acts and elsewhere, it is clear that baptism means incorporation into a worshipping community with accountability and boundaries (such as Acts 2:41-47). The only way to be truly sure you are increasing the number of Christians in a town is to increase the number of churches."[1]

D. As is well known, “teach” in v. 18 is the Greek word μαθητεύω, used as a transitive verb to mean, “make a disciple of someone.”[2] Therefore, “teach” in v. 18 means to win souls.

E. Elements of Matthew’s Great Commission:

1. The “power” in v. 18 is εξοθσία, power in the sense of authority. We have Heaven’s authority for what we do for Christ.

2. Teach” in v. 19 cannot mean “follow-up” or “disciple” in the sense of a series of Bible studies designed to help the new Christian grow. That is covered in v. 20, where the word “teach” is διδάσκω, the usual word for giving instruction

3. The emphases on baptizing and teaching show that this is the form of the Great Commission designed to produce churches—in other words, the church planter’s Great Commission.

F. In a number of ways this is the most complete of the five statements, so it is probably the one preached most often. However, we should not ignore the other five.

G. The promise of His presence is wonderful. This may be what the writer of Hebrews was referring to (Heb. 13:5), since we have no similar statement in the Gospels to that in Hebrews.

[1] Ed Stetzer and Warren Bird, Viral Churches (San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 2010), 199.

[2] Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva Mille, Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2000), 251.

 

[John of Japan]

II. The Comprehensive Planner (Mark 16:14-20)

A. The target audience was “the eleven.” This is once again the leadership, since the word eleven is preceded by the article. However, once again the word “apostle” with its authority is not used, so a wider application is certainly possible.

B. This form of the Great commission is given after the disciples had been upbraided for their unbelief (v. 14). This may be why they are not called apostles here.

C. Here are the emphases of this form of the Great Commission:

1. The extent is “all the world.”

2. “Preach the Gospel.” “Preach” is κηρύσσω, “announce, publicly proclaim.”[1] This is specifying a verbal (spoken or written) proclamation of the Gospel to all nations.

3. “To every creature.” We must present the Gospel to every single person within our reach, either by personal, mass, or literature evangelism. This presupposes personal contact of some kind.

4. “He that believeth and is baptized.” There is no direct command here to baptize as in Matthew’s Great Commission, but an implicit understanding that baptism will take place. Also, salvation here, “believeth,” is clearly without baptism. Having said that, the mention of baptism makes this also a church planting Great Commission. The implication is that viral multiplication through a church must take place to fulfill this statement of the Great Commission.

5. “These signs.” We can expect God to work miraculously as we go. What God will do is not limited to the signs given in this passage, but can include anything necessary to help the missionary get the Gospel out (Jer. 33:3). Notice that “these signs” follow, but do not precede the Gospel. In other words, miracles can supplement and prove the message, but must not be allowed to become central, as in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.

D. This version of the Great Commission gives a comprehensive plan for carrying out the fulfillment: Go, contact, proclaim, follow-up, have faith.


III. The Faithful Witness (Luke 24:33, 36, 45-49)

A. The target audience was “the eleven gathered together and them that were with them” (v. 33).

B. “Gathered” is συναθροίζω, “gather, assemble, call together” (v. 33).[2] So this was a purposeful gathering of all the disciples available, not just the eleven. In other words, the target audience is the church in embryo (since Pentecost had not yet taken place).

C. Therefore, the church has the Gospel, and the Great Commission is to the church in Luke’s version.

D. Elements of Luke’s Great Commission:

1. The extent is “all nations” beginning at Jerusalem. It is hard to become a missionary soul winner if you are not one at home.

2. The message is “repentance and remission of sins.” Never say that repentance (a fundamental change of thinking) is not necessary.

3. “Power from on high” through the Holy Spirit is absolutely necessary, and it comes by faith through prayer. “Let us never forget that we must tarry to be filled with the Holy Ghost and be ‘endued with power from on high,’ if we are to carry out the Great Commission.”[3]

4. The emphasis is on witnessing, which is personal contact.

[1] Friberg, Friberg and Miller, 230
[2] Ibid., 363
[3] John R. Rice, The Son of Man (Murfreesboro: Sword, 1971), 562.

 

[John of Japan]

IV. The Imitator of Christ (John 20:19-23)

A. The Greek word for “as” is καθώς, “so, in this way.”[1] Therefore, we are sent in the same way Christ was sent: to preach the Gospel and save sinners (1 Tim. 1:15), and give abundant life (John 10:10), which will take sacrifice.

B. Elements of John’s Great Commission:

1. “Disciple” in Acts means “believer” (Acts 11:26).

2. The target audience is “the disciples” (v. 19). Therefore, the Great Commission is for all individual born again Christians to obey.

3. This occurred on Sunday (v. 19), and the Greek word is συνάγω, the same word as in Matt. 18:20. Therefore, this Great Commission may be considered to be to the church as well as to each believer.

4. The Holy Spirit is necessary for the task, so Jesus breathed on them and commanded that they receive the Holy Spirit (v. 22). This is an aorist imperative, so this is not necessarily when they actually received the Holy Spirit, though that interpretation is possible, as per the teaching of John R. Rice: “Keep these two things separate: the indwelling of the Holy Spirit began the day of the resurrection of Christ; the fullness of the Spirit for these disciples, a special enduement of poser from on High, came at Pentecost.”[2]

5. They received the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4). The mighty wind at that occasion may have been prefigured by the breath of Christ, remembering that the same Greek word serves for “air” and “spirit.”

6. The message is centered on remission of sins. It is the Holy Spirit who brings conviction of “sin, righteousness, and judgment” (John 16:8-11). The soul winner must never assume that the prospect is convicted of sin, but should look for definite, Holy Spirit conviction before proceeding. You can’t get them saved until they know they are lost.


V. The Strategic Design (Acts 1:1-8)

A. The target audience is “the apostles.” In this context we must take the word “apostle” to mean “missionary.”

B. The Great Commission as given here in Acts shows a strategic plan, “beginning at Jerusalem” just as Luke taught in his Gospel (Luke 24:47). Therefore, a church must reach its own city or area first, but must branch out into neighboring areas (states, provinces, etc.) as soon as possible, and early in its planting have a plan to reach the entire world with church planting missionaries.

C. Elements of the Great Commission in Acts:

1. The emphasis is on witnessing rather than proclaiming—which does not rule out proclamation, of course. Witnessing is more likely to be one on one.

2. The power of the Holy Spirit was absolutely necessary.

3. Note the word “both” in this Great Commission. So the task is to begin at home, in the missionary’s own city, but continue until the world is reached. This can be in sequence if necessary, but the “both” means that from the very start, a worldwide ministry must be considered.

4. The last target is “the uttermost part of the earth.” Therefore, there is not a single tribe or nation on earth which is excluded from God’s love.

CONCLUSION: In giving His commission five times in five different wordings, the Savior showed His eagerness to see the world reached. Every generation of Christians inherits this task, has the responsibility of fulfilling it, and has the presence and power of the Lord Jesus Christ to help them do so. Let us believe it and act upon it.

[1] Friberg, Friberg, and Mille, 211.
[3] John R. Rice, The Son of God (Murfreesboro: Sword, 1976), 397.

 

[Salty]

Closing this now - and yes, I am giving John the last word

If you want start a new thread.