Kingdom Exclusion

[Benjamin]

Benjamin,

I agree with this. Sanctification ultimately is all grace. We will cast any crowns we win down at Christ's feet acknowledging that any glory or measure of reward we attain to ultimately belongs to him.

But there is a practical side to sanctification, a side that we must work out. The Scripture is chock full of real warnings and real promises to real believers that have real conditions. This cannot be denied.

We agree (Forgive me, I assume) that a believer is subject to familial chastening based uopn his behavior. And I hope we agree that this in know way whatsoever affects his standing as a justified man.

Why is it so far fetched to make kingdom entrance conditional when other things like fellowship, long life, health, and joy, are conditional. Especially when practically every time you see Kingdom entrance mentioned there are conditions, warnings and promises?

Lacy

I see a believer receiving instructions, putting on the new man, being preserved by these instructions as a saint, freely obeying in his love for Christ having received the gift of grace through faith.

(Eph 2:19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

(Eph 2:20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

(Eph 2:21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord:

(Eph 2:22) In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:

Can you show me "truly saved person" in the Bible?

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(1Jo 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(1Jo 4:15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

…or, they are talking about some other form of works based salvation, whether to earn, to keep, or to prove your salvation.

You mean like this?

“The gospel of spiritual salvation is simple: Believe and you will be saved. The gospel of the Kingdom is not so simple: It requires you to do stuff.”

As to there being only one gospel in the Bible, would you care to prove that? It seems that my Bible shows more than one.

Must be those dispy glasses you’re looking through. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by J Jump:

Works ONLY come into play AFTER a person is eternally saved. There is no combining of messges. There is NO mixing faith and works to get eternal salvation.

In one breath you say there is no combining of messages and no mixing faith and works and in the next claim how it is suppose to mix with your works to bring about salvation.

You said: “This message is all about faith and how it is supposed to mix with your works to bring about salvation.”

So you say works come into play after salvation, and in the next breath claim a different kind of salvation, two salvations, the first is eternal but the second is conditional.

“…so the context is of a different kind of salvation.”

“There’s no mixing”/ “it is supposed to mix”, eternal salvation/but conditional on works, “I don’t hope I’m saved. I know I’m saved.”/ “My hope is that in Christ that I will be transformed”.

Lead up by telling me:

QUOTE: “And again we are not adding works to eternal salvation. Again your mis-statement shows that you really don't understand what is being discussed.”


PAHLEASE! I understand it, I just don’t agree with the double talk.

And the bible clearly denies that claim. There is the gospel of grace. There is the gospel of Christ. There is Paul's gospel he refers to as my gospel. There's the gospel of the kingdom. There is more than one gospel.

There is one Gospel and it is the good news of Jesus Christ that is now fully revealed. Mark 1:1 The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mark 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of salvation to everyone that believeth, Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith, as it is written...

Included in the One Gospel, the good news message of Christ; is the kingdom, grace, peace, the Glory of God now fully revealed to us, One Gospel, One salvation, which is by FAITH.

Paul’s gospel??? Referred to it as his gospel??? Paul clearly straightened out those who said it was his gospel; maybe you should take note that he wasn’t very pleased with the dividing gospel stuff:

(1Co 1:13) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

(1Co 1:14) I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

(1Co 1:15) Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

So am I to believe you or am I to believe Scripture?

(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[Lacy Evans]

I see a believer receiving instructions, putting on the new man, being preserved by these instructions as a saint, freely obeying in his love for Christ having received the gift of grace through faith.

(Eph 2:19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

(Eph 2:20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

(Eph 2:21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord:

(Eph 2:22) In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.

Ok you didn't address my question at all. What if he freely disobeys? What about the conditional warnings that are applied to believers by Paul, Peter, Jesus, etc.

Tell us what is right.

Does a believer automatically always produce fruit worthy of his calling?

Does disobedience prove that he is not "truly saved?"

Can he lose his salvation?

Will he eventually be chastened (in this life) back into shape with no real threat of dieing in his sin and being ashamed at Christ's coming?

Will he just lose a few jewels in his crown "up in heaven"?

When he dies is everything made equal, will the back-pew warmer (who never grows beyond a baby Christian, never attained more than a nominal degree of holiness, and failed to serve God in Love and in fear) stand glorified with the martyr who never quavered?

Or is it somethin else that I haven't thought of?

Lacy

 

[J. Jump]

In one breath you say there is no combining of messages and no mixing faith and works and in the next claim how it is suppose to mix with your works to bring about salvation.

Depsite your best Valley Girl impression later in the post this quote right here alone continues to show that you don't understand what is being talked about.

Yes I said works have to mix with faith to bring about salvation, but what you are failing to understand is the different between eternal salvation and kingdom salvation. They are not the same thing.

I see that you didn't address a single contradiction that occurs when you mix eternal salvation and the kingdom message as you do. Why is that?

So you say works come into play after salvation, and in the next breath claim a different kind of salvation, two salvations, the first is eternal but the second is conditional.

It's not what I say, but the way Scripture lays things out. We can either believe or not. I choose to believe.

PAHLEASE! I understand it, I just don’t agree with the double talk.

The Valley Girls would be impressed :laugh: You do show some signs that you at least see what we are talking about but then in the next paragraph you say something that shows you don't. I don't think you have a clear grasp of what is being discussed. But that's just my opinion based on your remarks.

There is one Gospel and it is the good news of Jesus Christ that is now fully revealed.

Then what is the gospel of the kingdom, which is addressed three times in Matthew and once in Luke?

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of salvation to everyone that believeth

Ah yes . . . the gospel of Christ which Paul was addressing to saved individuals. Wonder why Paul was telling saved people how to be saved? The answer is he wasn't according to your standard of what salvation is. He wasn't telling eternally saved individuals how to be eternally saved as they didn't need that information. Romans is dealing for the most part with a salvation that comes after eternal salvation.

Got to rightly divide the Word.

Included in the One Gospel, the good news message of Christ; is the kingdom, grace, peace, the Glory of God now fully revealed to us, One Gospel, One salvation, which is by FAITH.

I don't have a problem with saying it like that, but you must realize there are different qualifiers for grace and for the kingdom. They aren't the same.

Paul’s gospel??? Referred to it as his gospel???

Romans 2:6, Romans 16:25, II Timothy 2:8

Paul clearly straightened out those who said it was his gospel; maybe you should

take note that he wasn’t very pleased with the dividing gospel stuff:

And you didn't even give a verse to back up your statement. Paul doesn't address a problem of different gospel messages. Better go dig some more.

Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

EXACTLY! That's my whole point. He preached the good news that Christ is the King. That doesn't have ANYTHING to do with eternal salvation. The gospel of God's grace is the Jesus was the Substitionary Sacrifice that shed His blood and died on my behalf a sinner. His being King doesn't have anything to do with my eternal salvation.

(Rom 10:9)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Absolutely! If you confess the Lordship of Jesus and believe in the resurrection thall SHALT be saved. Saved in the future. That's not the gospel of God's grace right there.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

 

[Benjamin]

Depsite your best Valley Girl impression later in the post this quote right here alone continues to show that you don't understand what is being talked about.

What Everrr! If it gives you the jollies. Evidently you’re at your same MO of trying to belittle saying “you don’t understand what is being talked about” and have found a new method of calling others spiritually blind for disagreeing with your nonsense.

Yes I said works have to mix with faith to bring about salvation,

Well, glad that you’ve at least made up your mind.

but what you are failing to understand

Here we go again, can’t you get it through your dispy shield that I don’t believe there are two salvations?

is the different between eternal salvation and kingdom salvation.

There is no difference, salvation is salvation and it is by faith in the work of Christ.

They are not the same thing.

Yes they are. Starting to get the idea that I understand what you’re saying but think otherwise? If not try lowering your force field.

I see that you didn't address a single contradiction that occurs when you mix eternal salvation and the kingdom message as you do. Why is that?

In your own mind you think there is a contradiction and you have found the answer which would be two salvations and multiple gospels, all wrapped up nice and tightly in some dispensational division teaching .

It's not what I say, but the way Scripture lays things out. We can either believe or not. I choose to believe.

You choose a flawed system to follow instead of the truth that is in the scripture and you say what you have been programmed within that system.

I don't think you have a clear grasp of what is being discussed. But that's just my opinion based on your remarks.

Earth to J Jump…Come in…

Then what is the gospel of the kingdom, which is addressed three times in Matthew and once in Luke?

The kingdom is Christ’s and the Gospel is the good news about being saved in Christ. Simple eh?

Ah yes . . . the gospel of Christ which Paul was addressing to saved individuals. Wonder why Paul was telling saved people how to be saved?

It is instructions to the saints how to live in their liberty of freedom thereby preserving them in love of the truth as there is only once to be saved, Christ will not be crucified twice.

The answer is he wasn't according to your standard of what salvation is. He wasn't telling eternally saved individuals how to be eternally saved as they didn't need that information. Romans is dealing for the most part with a salvation that comes after eternal salvation.

There is only one salvation, one standard to live by, faith in Christ.

Got to rightly divide the Word.

Aw, the old dispensational golden rule, divide up the word based on a faulty misinterpretation of 2Tim 2:15.

I don't have a problem with saying it like that, but you must realize there are different qualifiers for grace and for the kingdom. They aren't the same.

No one qualifies except through Christ.

And you didn't even give a verse to back up your statement. Paul doesn't address a problem of different gospel messages. Better go dig some more.

Take your blinders off.
Christ is not divided, nor is the message of salvation, He bore our sins on the cross, and all that were baptized were baptized into Christ by faith. The glory of Christ then is not to be divided neither is the unity of the body to be torn asunder, Christ is all, the Gospel is one. Again, 1Cor 13.
Quote:
Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

EXACTLY! That's my whole point. He preached the good news that Christ is the King. That doesn't have ANYTHING to do with eternal salvation.

That’s not your point, your point is to separate the good news and thereby divide Christ. Christ has everything thing to do with eternal salvation.

The gospel of God's grace is the Jesus was the Substitionary Sacrifice that shed His blood and died on my behalf a sinner.

There is only one complete Gospel now fully revealed.

His being King doesn't have anything to do with my eternal salvation.

Dispensational Hogwash!

Absolutely! If you confess the Lordship of Jesus and believe in the resurrection thall SHALT be saved. Saved in the future. That's not the gospel of God's grace right there.

Dangerous futurist nonsense, you act as if every part of the Gospel must say all things or it is open range for division.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

I think you might really believe in your own mind that I am proving your point. I’m done.

 

[Benjamin]

Ok you didn't address my question at all. What if he freely disobeys? What about the conditional warnings that are applied to believers by Paul, Peter, Jesus, etc.

Tell us what is right.

Does a believer automatically always produce fruit worthy of his calling?

Does disobedience prove that he is not "truly saved?"

Can he lose his salvation?

Will he eventually be chastened (in this life) back into shape with no real threat of dieing in his sin and being ashamed at Christ's coming?

Will he just lose a few jewels in his crown "up in heaven"?

When he dies is everything made equal, will the back-pew warmer (who never grows beyond a baby Christian, never attained more than a nominal degree of holiness, and failed to serve God in Love and in fear) stand glorified with the martyr who never quavered?

Or is it somethin else that I haven't thought of?

Lacy

You asked me why it would be so far fetched to make the kingdom conditional and I explained that I saw this as instructions to the saints. It is you that can’t address the question and draw the line one can not cross, the reason being is if you do you have become a judge, a legalist, and that will be apparent. You don’t like the idea of grace for all that believe? The laborers whined after their day in the field being paid the same wage as those who didn’t work as long. We are told the greatest in the kingdom will serve the others, it doesn’t say the greatest in the kingdom look down on the baby Christians. When one dies I don’t know if “equal” will even mean anything in heaven. Blessings.

 

[J. Jump]

What Everrr! If it gives you the jollies. Evidently you’re at your same MO of trying to belittle saying “you don’t understand what is being talked about” and have found a new method of calling others spiritually blind for disagreeing with your nonsense.

Well I can see this discussion is becoming quite unprofitable, so this will probably be my last response to you. I have not called you spiritually blind, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. My intentions were not to belittle you, and if you feel that way then I offer my sincerest apology, because my intention was far from that.

I was merely stating my estimation of your understanding or lack there of based on your statements, and again you make statements in this current post that continue to lead credence to the fact that either you don't really understand what is being discussed or you do understand and you are intentionally trying to misrepresent what I believe to put me in a bad light. Either way it's not good.

I have been more than willing to listen to what you consider to be the Truth, but you have yet to step to the table with that. That's normally what happens. People will deny this teaching strongly, but if you ask them to share the Truth they either will not do so or unable to do so. Again neither of which is a good thing.

Quote:
Yes I said works have to mix with faith to bring about salvation,

Well, glad that you’ve at least made up your mind.

This is nothing new. This is something that I have said from the very beginning, but once again you are cutting it out of context to make it say something that I wasn't intending to say.

Quote:
but what you are failing to understand

Here we go again, can’t you get it through your dispy shield that I don’t believe there are two salvations?

It doesn't matter what you believe, or what I believe, or what Joe Blow believes. It only matters what the Bible says. So let's not deal in what we believe, let's just deal with what the Bible says and let that tell us what to believe.

Quote:
is the different between eternal salvation and kingdom salvation.

There is no difference, salvation is salvation and it is by faith in the work of Christ.

Then I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you really don't understand the message of eternal salvation then. Eternal salvation doesn't have anything to do with the kingdom per se. Eternal salvation is about the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God on behalf of sinners that believe.

But again I would be more than willing and interested to hear what you have to say about eternal salvation and the kingdom being the same thing.

Quote:

I see that you didn't address a single contradiction that occurs when you mix eternal salvation and the kingdom message as you do. Why is that?

In your own mind you think there is a contradiction and you have found the answer which would be two salvations and multiple gospels, all wrapped up nice and tightly in some dispensational division teaching .

And again here is the common answer one gives when not dealing with Scripture. There are contradictions in the way you have explained things, and if you want to stick your head in the sand like the big flightless bird then so be it, but that doesn't mean the contradictions don't exist.

Quote:

It's not what I say, but the way Scripture lays things out. We can either believe or not. I choose to believe.

You choose a flawed system to follow instead of the truth that is in the scripture and you say what you have been programmed within that system.

Well once again if you hold the Truth then let's hear it. That's only the third time I've asked you. So if "you" are the one that has the truth and I am in error then tell me what the truth is and how it all works out from Genesis 1:1 to the end of Revelation. Please enlighten me.

Quote:
Then what is the gospel of the kingdom, which is addressed three times in Matthew and once in Luke?

The kingdom is Christ’s and the Gospel is the good news about being saved in Christ. Simple eh?

Yeah except that's not even remotely close to what Scripture says.

Quote:

Ah yes . . . the gospel of Christ which Paul was addressing to saved individuals. Wonder why Paul was telling saved people how to be saved?

It is instructions to the saints how to live in their liberty of freedom thereby preserving them in love of the truth as there is only once to be saved, Christ will not be crucified twice.

See again here is a statement that shows you don't understand what is being discussed. No one has said anything about Christ being crucified twice. I'm beginning to think that you are purposefully just trying to muddy the waters.

There is only one salvation, one standard to live by, faith in Christ.

Well you continue to believe that if you want to.

Aw, the old dispensational golden rule, divide up the word based on a faulty misinterpretation of 2Tim 2:15.

No that would be a Biblical rule to make correct divisions where God makes them.

[quotepThat’s not your point, your point is to separate the good news and thereby divide Christ.[/quote]

Wow so now not only am I wrong, but you can tell me what my point is and what my point is not. Are you alergic to kryptonite because you must be Superman?

Well Benjamin I said this was probably my last repsonse to you, but now I know it is, because you have not interest in dealing honestly with Scripture.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I was merely stating my estimation of your understanding or lack there of based on your statements, and again you make statements in this current post that continue to lead credence to the fact that either you don't really understand what is being discussed or you do understand and you are intentionally trying to misrepresent what I believe to put me in a bad light. Either way it's not good.

I would like to point out that what J. Jump has said that you have no understanding of what he's saying, and you have twisted it to try to denigrate him by saying that he said you have no understanding of something secret. There are many here who disagree with him who are not disingenuous enough to feign lack of understanding of what he's saying, nor do they stoop to lieing about what he says and doesn't say. There are others who do.

These misrepresentations and untruths do nothing to edify anyone.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Benjamin, a couple of quick questions:

Do you believe that someone can lose their spiritual salvation?

If not, what's their incentive to behave themselves?

 

[Benjamin]

I would like to point out that what J. Jump has said that you have no understanding of what he's saying, and you have twisted it to try to denigrate him by saying that he said you have no understanding of something secret. There are many here who disagree with him who are not disingenuous enough to feign lack of understanding of what he's saying, nor do they stoop to lieing about what he says and doesn't say. There are others who do.

These misrepresentations and untruths do nothing to edify anyone.

Hope,

In the last discussion I had with J Jump in the past he directly called me spiritually blind and said so for disagreeing with what he said using the same type tactic although this time was much milder. That is what I was referring to, maybe he forgot, by his reply, maybe I should have forgot it, but you sir calling me a liar is in ignorance. I had tried to be rational with him to no avail and you bud are biased in your judgments and they are mislead..

 

[Benjamin]

Benjamin, a couple of quick questions:

Do you believe that someone can lose their spiritual salvation?

If not, what's their incentive to behave themselves?

I already discussed incentive to be obedient, post #34, think you might at least would have read the tread more carefully if you are to make accusations, and no I do not believe a person can be reborn in the Spirit and lose his salvation.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I already discussed incentive to be obedient, post #34, think you might at least would have read the tread more carefully if you are to make accusations, and no I do not believe a person can be reborn in the Spirit and lose his salvation.

I've read every post on this thread, and what you were saying does not quite answering the question that I asked: What is the incentive for a saved person to be obedient?

And, you have been regularly saying that he has said things that were not said. It's not a one-time event.

You may disagree with him; you may be right about something that he's incorrect about. But, instead of saying that he said something that he never said, why not show Scriptures why he's wrong? That's much more effective.

But, can you concisely and simply answer the question of what the incentinve is to behave?

 

[Benjamin]

I've read every post on this thread, and what you were saying does not quite answering the question that I asked: What is the incentive for a saved person to be obedient?

And, you have been regularly saying that he has said things that were not said. It's not a one-time event.

You may disagree with him; you may be right about something that he's incorrect about. But, instead of saying that he said something that he never said, why not show Scriptures why he's wrong? That's much more effective.

But, can you concisely and simply answer the question of what the incentinve is to behave?

Now you make yourself a liar with your accusations and again your motives are biased, although I may have communicated it better I quoted his very words in order to show him how he sounded and if you're in regards to the comment he made of Christ being crucified twice he mistook the meaning and I did not say he said that, what I was implying to was scripture and as for your suggestion to show more scripture if you were to see the last long discussion I had with him I posted a ton of scripture to basically nothing and got the same rhetoric, actually much worse, along with several spiritual blindness accusations. And as a matter of fact I would not have even corresponded with him if he had not replied to my first post to Lacy.

Now, I'm done talking about him with you and will apologize to him for doing so.

As for the incentive if you don't like my answer it's probably because it doesn't agree with your dispensational kingdom teaching and I've had my fill of this debate. My answer was not even responded to and my respect for having this discussion with you has faltered.

 

[Hope of Glory]

OK, since you won't answer the question, I'll simply quote what you said in post 34. I see that you mention the importance of being spiritually alive in obedience, but there is nothing mentioned about what that incentive is.

Is it to prove you're saved? To earn your spiritual salvation? To keep your spiritual salvation? Something else?

There's nothing here that I see that mentions incentive to behave.

With respect back your statement shows that you are still missing the message of the differences in the ministration of the Spirit and the role of faith, but we have been over this before. From what I’ve observed of your kingdom teaching it tries to combine the two wrongly; I’m not talking about animal sacrifices, I’m talking about how one is saved and it isn’t by lawful works however you care to classify it as it appears to me you are dividing the completed message of salvation to include works by adding the threat of the message of the kingdom.

Here is the problem in a nutshell, mixing in works “to bring about salvation.” And I disagree that this teaching doesn’t take away from faith and will maintain it is a dangerous teaching in that light.


Got news for you, I’m not confused in the least on this matter and it is far from the first time I’ve looked into it, I just vehemently disagree with the way some present it. There is only one Gospel and IMO your attempt to separate it with this dispensation is missing the big picture.



Like I noted before to you we are really not that far apart in considering the importance of being Spiritually alive in obedience although differ in how it should be taught, but I will also challenge you to draw that line we must not cross to show us when we will miss the ticket to the kingdom in your methods of separation.

In a believers love for Christ they will work out their salvation in trembling and fear believing in the Lord and repent by conviction of the Holy Spirit that they live in, it is not their works that will bring them into the Kingdom of God, that work is completed and is brought only in faith by the hope in Him.

A believer is consoled in Christ, comforted in the Holy Spirit, made righteous being taught in the Holy Spirit, which He gave to us by grace and in our faith and we should come to know that that we received that spirit of bondage to the Lord of our lives not to fear but in that adoption as children in that spirit we thereby cry out to our Father in our liberty as it is manifested to us how great His love for us is; as we grow in that love for Him we will be obedient, to teach we are brought into the Kingdom of God by our own works is what I would consider Apostasy.

(Heb 5:12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

 

[J. Jump]

In the last discussion I had with J Jump in the past he directly called me spiritually blind

Please show me the thread and post number where I directly called you spiritually blind. I don't understand why you want to make things up just because you don't agree with me? I have never called you spiritually blind, and if I have then you need to provide evidence to the fact or apologize.

 

[Benjamin]

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Please show me the thread and post number where I directly called you spiritually blind. I don't understand why you want to make things up just because you don't agree with me? I have never called you spiritually blind, and if I have then you need to provide evidence to the fact or apologize.

J Jump,

In the past not only have you made that accusation to me but to others here and I called you on it then and you did not dispute it at that time. If you will remember there were two threads going with a lot of conflict and you had said in a martyring sense there that your doctrine has cost you a church, friends, and has gotten you called every name in the book and that time it was my intention to suggest to you that the way you were talking to people with these accusations would be a big part of the cause of that and would get that result every time. My response to you at that time was done in love for edification and I will apologize for bringing it up again and insinuating you were doing the same thing and will admit that was unfair of me and wrong showing that I wasn’t being very forgiving or forgetting. If you want to go back and hash over it you will have to do it in your own heart and time because at this point it doesn’t matter to me if you wish call me a liar about it and I will not continue in these issues that will do nothing but cause anger, hurt and fighting.

I wish you well in your search for the truth in all these matters and pray that God will bless your ministry for Him. I hope that we can put this behind us and grow into a better way of communicating our differences, learning by our mistakes, and forgiving one another for our weaknesses while chewing on the meat. I would think our conversations would go much better in person than in this type format and we would have a lot to talk about in the common interest we have of the Kingdom. I apologize for my well known frankness and my aggressions not being better controlled.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Well, I personally don't mind frankness and aggressions, but I do mind lies and insinuations. Sadly, the lies and insinuations tend to be the standard fare when someone doesn't like Kingdom teachings, because then they have to deal with Scriptures that expose something they don't like. But, the Jewish leaders in Jesus' day, did not like the hard teachings that Jesus presented either, and they crucified him for it. (Well, the Essenes may have embraced the teachings, but the Bible is full of warnings and negativity (by today's standards), and is more prone to point out the Pharisees and others that rejected the teachings, than those who embraced them.)

 

[J. Jump]

Benjamin, while I appreciate your apology and would agree that speaking in person is always much better than speaking on a board I don't understand this quote:

In the past not only have you made that accusation to me but to others here and I called you on it then and you did not dispute it at that time.

I don't recall ever calling someone straight out spiritually blind. Again if I have made that accusation I would appreciate knowing when and where I have made that accusation. That is an attack on my character that I feel is unwarranted and unsubstantiated, but when people read these threads they don't care. All they see is a guy being accused of something and so they assume it's probably true.

And it's a matter that is untrue, unless once again you can provide a thread and post number where I directly said that.

As to my statements of loss they weren't given in that manner, but I know that's the way people take it, but I can't help that. The point I was trying to make is there wasn't any gain for those of us that believe this. We are not profiting from this like some that are peddling the Word of God. And it doesn't have anything to do with a martyr complex, but just stating the facts.

Well, I personally don't mind frankness and aggressions, but I do mind lies and insinuations.

HoG I agree with this statement. I think it is much better when we shoot straight with each other instead of playing word games with our communication. Let's just call black black and white white and red red, etc. But we can do that in a loving way even though we disagree with each other.

 

[Benjamin]

Hope, you mean like the insinuation you just made about lying in your hypocrisy? You need to take your busybody nose and put it back wherever it belongs in this case as you don’t seem to be able to take a clue that I don’t care to keep this assaulting behavior going as you continue in your quest for strife.

To answer your question about the incentive to be obedient to God, the short answer that I feel was expressed in my statement of repenting in conviction of the Holy Spirit is Love. That love runs deep and would be most simply expressed as the love a child has toward his Father and all the things that go with that kind of love not to exclude faith and trust. I don’t find the warnings as negative in the Bible as do you but as instructions for those that believe and love Him. Of the so called hard teachings one of the first that come to my mind after you giving your view of “today’s standards” is:

(Mat 11:28) Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
(Mat 11:29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
(Mat 11:30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Your right I don’t want to deal with your whole dispensational system from Genesis to Revelation every time I try and make point about the Kingdom as you try attempt divide it up. That doesn’t mean that the standard fare is for someone that doesn’t agree with your kingdom teachings is anymore dishonest or honorable than the one who is trying to teach it, it means as discord runs high so do emotions sometimes leading to accusations so you might stop with them a minute and check out the log in your own eye.

J Jump,

I’m not going to circle with you on this issue, you may disagree and that is fine, but I made my position clear and will not go back into it. You know what I’m talking about and if want to continue arguing about it you will find it hard to do by yourself.