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Kingdom Theology

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thomas15

thomas15

Well-Known Member
1689Dave said:
But he proved to the spiritually enlightened, the Pharisee's millennial kingdom is false. Based on the blindness God inflicted on them through forced literalism.
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Jesus made it quite clear to the Pharisee's that they didn't really know the Scriptures, for example in Matt 19.

What you seem to not realize is that after Solomon's Temple was destroyed and the Jews scattered, they set up local assemblies (synagogue) to take the place of Temple worship. The teachings of the religion became mainly the teachings of the Rabbis. When the Jews returned to the land for the 2nd Temple period they continued with this even with the Temple worship restored. This was the teachings of the Pharisee's Jesus was referring to.

The Pharisees were experts in the law as proscribed in the traditions and teachings of the rabbinic leaders, not a literal reading and application of the Scriptures. Jesus was constantly referring to the Scriptures when confronted by the leaders of the Jews. They (the Jews) wanted a messiah that would restore the kingdom on their terms, not God's.

Judaism then, as it is now, was primarily a religion of works and ritual and not of belief in the Word of God. True there were some who trusted in God by faith and took the words of the Bible seriously but that was the exception not the rule. Had they taken the words of the Bible literally, the Jews would have accepted Jesus as Messiah by searching the Scriptures to see if Jesus met the requirements of messiah instead of going to the Scriptures with a pre-determined idea of what the messiah should be in their minds.

Another thing you don't seem to comprehend is that if Jehovah were to break his promise to the Jews regarding the land and restoration of the theocratic kingdom because of their unbelief and corruption, then why would Jehovah keep his promises of eternity in the Fathers house to the Christians? Do you think that Christians are immune from the same corruption and disbelief as the Jews? I would submit that late 20th and early 21st century followers of Christ are little better and perhaps worse. Why? Because we have the truth in the form of the Bible and yet we don't believe and trust the actual words in the book.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
thomas15 said:
Jesus made it quite clear to the Pharisee's that they didn't really know the Scriptures, for example in Matt 19.

What you seem to not realize is that after Solomon's Temple was destroyed and the Jews scattered, they set up local assemblies (synagogue) to take the place of Temple worship. The teachings of the religion became mainly the teachings of the Rabbis. When the Jews returned to the land for the 2nd Temple period they continued with this even with the Temple worship restored. This was the teachings of the Pharisee's Jesus was referring to.

The Pharisees were experts in the law as proscribed in the traditions and teachings of the rabbinic leaders, not a literal reading and application of the Scriptures. Jesus was constantly referring to the Scriptures when confronted by the leaders of the Jews. They (the Jews) wanted a messiah that would restore the kingdom on their terms, not God's.

Judaism then, as it is now, was primarily a religion of works and ritual and not of belief in the Word of God. True there were some who trusted in God by faith and took the words of the Bible seriously but that was the exception not the rule. Had they taken the words of the Bible literally, the Jews would have accepted Jesus as Messiah by searching the Scriptures to see if Jesus met the requirements of messiah instead of going to the Scriptures with a pre-determined idea of what the messiah should be in their minds.

Another thing you don't seem to comprehend is that if Jehovah were to break his promise to the Jews regarding the land and restoration of the theocratic kingdom because of their unbelief and corruption, then why would Jehovah keep his promises of eternity in the Fathers house to the Christians? Do you think that Christians are immune from the same corruption and disbelief as the Jews? I would submit that late 20th and early 21st century followers of Christ are little better and perhaps worse. Why? Because we have the truth in the form of the Bible and yet we don't believe and trust the actual words in the book.
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Jesus is King. He doesn't break his promise to Israel. The Church is Israel. The earth is for the Church.
 
P

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC said:
I understand "afterwards", and what was to come. My question is in regard to Christ coming to reign differently for a millennium and then the judgment.

I do not understand the actual purpose.
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Acts 15:17
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

That right there is the actual purpose. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord and those ruling with him, during the millennium. Also they will not have the devil present to deceive them.

Joel 2:32 says the same thing.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
thomas15 said:
Jesus made it quite clear to the Pharisee's that they didn't really know the Scriptures, for example in Matt 19.

What you seem to not realize is that after Solomon's Temple was destroyed and the Jews scattered, they set up local assemblies (synagogue) to take the place of Temple worship. The teachings of the religion became mainly the teachings of the Rabbis. When the Jews returned to the land for the 2nd Temple period they continued with this even with the Temple worship restored. This was the teachings of the Pharisee's Jesus was referring to.

The Pharisees were experts in the law as proscribed in the traditions and teachings of the rabbinic leaders, not a literal reading and application of the Scriptures. Jesus was constantly referring to the Scriptures when confronted by the leaders of the Jews. They (the Jews) wanted a messiah that would restore the kingdom on their terms, not God's.

Judaism then, as it is now, was primarily a religion of works and ritual and not of belief in the Word of God. True there were some who trusted in God by faith and took the words of the Bible seriously but that was the exception not the rule. Had they taken the words of the Bible literally, the Jews would have accepted Jesus as Messiah by searching the Scriptures to see if Jesus met the requirements of messiah instead of going to the Scriptures with a pre-determined idea of what the messiah should be in their minds.

Another thing you don't seem to comprehend is that if Jehovah were to break his promise to the Jews regarding the land and restoration of the theocratic kingdom because of their unbelief and corruption, then why would Jehovah keep his promises of eternity in the Fathers house to the Christians? Do you think that Christians are immune from the same corruption and disbelief as the Jews? I would submit that late 20th and early 21st century followers of Christ are little better and perhaps worse. Why? Because we have the truth in the form of the Bible and yet we don't believe and trust the actual words in the book.
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You will not understand any more than the Pharisees themselves unless you digest Jesus' gospel of the kingdom, and acknowledge it is spiritual and the Pharisee's Millennium is physical. Jesus presents a Kingdom of faith, the Pharisees present a kingdom of sight in total rejection of Christ.
 
S

Scripture More Accurately

Well-Known Member
1689Dave said:
If you drop Millennialism completely, you won't read it into his words. BTW, the Council of Ephesus banned it as heresy in 431.
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No one is reading into His words. I provided you with words directly from Jesus to which you never responded. Your claim that the kingdom is only spiritual is faulty--it cannot even account for all that Jesus Himself said.
 
John of Japan

John of Japan

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1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
John of Japan

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1689Dave said:
Wrong because you say so? Jesus says you are wrong as does the historic Church.
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Wait, wait. I was talking about history. You can't change history. So how do you know what the Council of Ephesus said? I gave you a scholarly source about that. It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the history says. So what you said sounds to me like "My Daddy can beat up your Daddy." :p

If you are right, tells us how you know. I will then change my view if I judge your information to be correct. That's how the study of history works.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
John of Japan said:
Wait, wait. I was talking about history. You can't change history. So how do you know what the Council of Ephesus said? I gave you a scholarly source about that. It doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the history says. So what you said sounds to me like "My Daddy can beat up your Daddy." :p

If you are right, tells us how you know. I will then change my view if I judge your information to be correct. That's how the study of history works.
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You are a teacher and do not know what the Ecumenical Creeds say?
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC said:
Yes, they were. This is the position I hold. But it does not make it correct (either the early church or me holding it). My point is that the early church was historic pre-mil without sacrificing the kingdom of God on earth during their time.
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How are we "sacrificing" the Kingdom ?
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
thomas15 said:
Jesus made it quite clear to the Pharisee's that they didn't really know the Scriptures, for example in Matt 19.

What you seem to not realize is that after Solomon's Temple was destroyed and the Jews scattered, they set up local assemblies (synagogue) to take the place of Temple worship. The teachings of the religion became mainly the teachings of the Rabbis. When the Jews returned to the land for the 2nd Temple period they continued with this even with the Temple worship restored. This was the teachings of the Pharisee's Jesus was referring to.

The Pharisees were experts in the law as proscribed in the traditions and teachings of the rabbinic leaders, not a literal reading and application of the Scriptures. Jesus was constantly referring to the Scriptures when confronted by the leaders of the Jews. They (the Jews) wanted a messiah that would restore the kingdom on their terms, not God's.

Judaism then, as it is now, was primarily a religion of works and ritual and not of belief in the Word of God. True there were some who trusted in God by faith and took the words of the Bible seriously but that was the exception not the rule. Had they taken the words of the Bible literally, the Jews would have accepted Jesus as Messiah by searching the Scriptures to see if Jesus met the requirements of messiah instead of going to the Scriptures with a pre-determined idea of what the messiah should be in their minds.

Another thing you don't seem to comprehend is that if Jehovah were to break his promise to the Jews regarding the land and restoration of the theocratic kingdom because of their unbelief and corruption, then why would Jehovah keep his promises of eternity in the Fathers house to the Christians? Do you think that Christians are immune from the same corruption and disbelief as the Jews? I would submit that late 20th and early 21st century followers of Christ are little better and perhaps worse. Why? Because we have the truth in the form of the Bible and yet we don't believe and trust the actual words in the book.
Click to expand...
Theocratic Kingdom by peters might help some here!
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
1689Dave said:
If you drop Millennialism completely, you won't read it into his words. BTW, the Council of Ephesus banned it as heresy in 431.
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Scripture does not speak of a millennium? Interesting. What translation do you use?

BTW, I'm not Catholic.
 
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