KJV-Onlyism Commentary

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However, despite our agreement on this point, are you unwilling to address the issue of Stephen referring to Moses receiving the oracle in a dead language and how it measures against your statements of these languages being unneccessary?
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I guess you didn't see/understand the plain evidence right before your very eyes, that you provided yourself, that we don't need the Hebrew and Greek?

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Right here:

 

To the contrary. I recognize that it is God who works through men in order to establish His Purpose. Notice the statement you quoted of mine, "Their work, and often times their martyrdom, were the vehicle through which God preserved his Scriptures in order that we could have them today."

 

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Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

and we learn this by study:

2 Timothy 3
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
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Amen!! I agree. As that is what the inspired scriptures say that you provided for us all, that we can clearly see, and understand, and I believe them, as they are my final authority. Not only this, but the Lord has testified to this truth in my heart and my life.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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To the contrary. I recognize that it is god who works through men in order to establish His Purpose. Notice the statement you quoted of mine, "Their work, and often times their martyrdom, were the vehicle through which God preserved his Scriptures in order that we could have them today."
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I apologize for misunderstanding your statement. If you believe this however, why then are you denying the word of God we have today as being the inspired word of God? You can't have it both ways. You either believe you have the inspired word of God in your own language, or you don't. It is that simple.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

We have translations of the inspired words. Just as the KJV translators stated in their preface:

 

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We have translations of the inspired words. Just as the KJV translators stated in their preface:
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But you see, I believe God, not man and man's opinions. I believe God's promises to the faithful and I believe and know that I am one of those faithful believers. I believe that God would not allow errors in the scriptures, and that He cares about His word of truth regardless of what language it is in, whether it be the copies, or a translation of those copies. If we believe that God has allowed errors in the scriptures, then how can we be sure even of our own faith? When will the doubting end? How can one be kept from deception? Or live in God's perfect will? Or know the perfect revelation of Jesus Christ? Have I become the judge of what is or is not the word of God? No. God not only preserves His word of truth, but provides it and makes it evident. You can go ahead and believe that the only error free scriptures are in the Hebrew and Greek, but I know and believe that I have them also in my own language that I can understand. God doesn't allow altering of his word of truth, as we see evidenced in the mv's of today. These things are contrary to what the believing churches have always had. God is also not the author of confusion, and that is quite evident with the advent of the mv's. The division comes from the errors/alterations that are evidenced in the mv's that are shown, and warned about, and it is from those who deny it, or do not want to see or admit to it, that are responsible for the division regarding this debate. Do many honestly believe we enjoy coming here to be attacked and ridiculed and called such horrible and untrue things? How would you feel if we said you were part of a cult or sect? Or that you were a disciple of Metzger, or a Westcott and Hort manite? How would you like to be called a troll, or spewing venom? Or guilty of believing a false doctrine? How may I ask, are these type of accusations, not questioning our salvation and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ? And would you continue to come here if you were us, under these circumstances? All because we believe and share with you all the truth that we have in our own language the inspired words of God without error.



Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Doesn't anyone detect the Holy Spirit passion eminating from Michelle's post?! I must say Amen sister! We are riddiculed daily and for what? For deffending the Word of God!

Natters states;

Do you see the little dig? Maybe I shouldn't be claiming the name of Christ because I believe that God has preserved His word full as full can be with "inspiration" in the KJB.

Don't you see the sillyness in such a determination?

So by your deffinition, the New Testiment cannot be the Word of God because it was written after the books of the OT?! And therefore the new would nullify the old as being the Word of God.

So when Jason writes his perfectly inerrant bible in English for us, it will be the first time the Word of God ever existed!

Michelle, God bless you for your work in deffending the Word of God! I wonder if our founding fathers ever dreamed that there would be Christians debating Christians as to whether or not God was capeable of preserving His word inerrant! Amazing!

God Bless!

 

Such confidence is good and I do not doubt your sincerety. I, too, am sure of my election.

You must understand, Michelle, that the Scriptures that we hold in our hands today have been touched by man. Whether that translation is the KJV, ESV, NASB, whatever, it is man's effort to translate the given word of God. That is why it is so important that we research and research again what is being said in the Scriptures. That is what leads to spiritual maturity.

I think this quote is where the problem really lies. From your posts it appears that you expect a proof for your faith. That is not what faith is.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

One is not saved nor sanctified by faith in the Bible. One is saved by faith in Christ! It is the Message that saves, not the vehicle of that Message. Consider Jesus' words to the pious Pharisees:

John 5
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Christ's audience here DID study the Scriptures! They knew them inside out, backwards and forwards, yet they rejected Christ. They had the words, God's perfect and holy words, and they placed their faith in them. It was all for naught. Their faith was misdirected.

Yes, God does make His perfect will known but not, in my opinion, in the way in which you think he does. He told us how He would do it in Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Do not seek perfection in a text that sits on your desk. Only God is perfect. His Holy Spirit dwells within you. Look there.

Let me try to explain the advantage of the use of original language this way, Michelle.

I am a carpenter and as such it is necessary that I measure material very carefully before I cut it. If I am cutting a piece of plywood into an irregular shape, I always try to start my measuring from a single point, a point of origin that I always hook my tape to. However, every measurement I make has a degree of error to it, no matter how careful I am. Therefore, if I try measuring from a point I used my tape to get to, my errors begin to compound. After two or three attempts, always moving the hook of my tape, what may have begun as an inperceptible error of a tiny fraction of an inch grows into a much larger error that will ruin my material and my project.

So, I always try to stay on that point of origin. I measure and I remeasure because my material and time are valuable and I do not want to make mistakes. Likewise with Scripture, I try to set my measurement as close to the origin as possible. I hope this analogy is clear enough for you to see. You do not have to agree, by any means, but I would like to know that my point is acknowledged.

But men can make any version support their point if they do not rightly discern the intent. David Koresch used the KJV and taught that he was the lamb that would open the seals in Revelation. The avoidance of confusion comes from study, not from a particular version.

I sincerely hope that you recognize that I have done none of these things. If your faith is at a point with which you are comfortable, then I would not try to disuade you from it. In fact I entered the thread to speak to you in particular in an effort to show you with Scripture where your arguments vary from Scripture but it was my desire to do so in a peaceful and respectful way. I do not doubt your commitment to Christ and I really hope you do not doubt mine as I have the utmost respect for the Bible. I hope that reflects in my posts. However, I worship the One of whom the Scriptures testify, not the Scriptures themselves.

Where is God in all of this you ask? He is in each and every believer. Every imperfect believer. That is the beauty and the nature of Grace.

We all have room to grow, Michelle, we all start our journey to God at different points. Paul does not tell us to "attain" the prize in Philippians 3:14. He tells us to "press towards" it. My prayer is that we may all grow from these exchanges as we study God's Will for our lives revealed to us through the Scriptures. Test everything, hold on to that which is good.

 

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quote:
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If we believe that God has allowed errors in the scriptures, then how can we be sure even of our own faith?
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I think this quote is where the problem really lies. From your posts it appears that you expect a proof for your faith. That is not what faith is.

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And you are misunderstanding what I said. Then you went on to quote the actual inspired scriptures God gave to us, to prove that I am wrong about the scriptures. This doesn't settle well with me. I know the scriptures you are using, and I not only know them, but believe them, and believe they are the very inspired scriptures. You however, quote to me, as if you think they are authoritative yet you deny this authority, and make it seem as though I said we need proof for faith without them we cannot have this proof. This is not what I was saying. I was saying, if we CANNOT TRUST that we have the inspired scriptures without error, then this will lead us to doubt, and this can ultimately lead to our questioning our faith. Then our faith would be in vain. You see, Jesus Christ said himself in the scripture you quoted to me, that those very scriptures are those that testify of Him. The Pharisees and Scribes were in unbelief, and DIDN'T BELIEVE the scriptures, even though they had them. I am a believer in Jesus Christ, born again and washed in His blood. I believe the scriptures. That is the difference. I don't need something to prove my faith, which is what you made it seem as though I was saying. My faith doesn't come of my own will, but my faith has been given to me by God, and in my case it was from reading the word of God, to which I also heard in my heart and believed.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Where do I deny the authority of the Scriptures?

 

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Yes, God does make His perfect will known but not, in my opinion, in the way in which you think he does. He told us how He would do it in Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Do not seek perfection in a text that sits on your desk. Only God is perfect. His Holy Spirit dwells within you. Look there.
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To which none of us could know, nor understand, without the word of God. It is God's word that is powerful, and God's word that is what the Lord uses to convict our hearts, teach us and talk to us through His words. Otherwise, there would have been no need for the scriptures at all. The scriptures are the testimony of and revelation of Jesus Christ. Without them, we are lost to this. The word of God is filled with passages concerning God's words and how important they are for the believer, not to only know them, but obey them, from the heart.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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So, I always try to stay on that point of origin. I measure and I remeasure because my material and time are valuable and I do not want to make mistakes. Likewise with Scripture, I try to set my measurement as close to the origin as possible. I hope this analogy is clear enough for you to see. You do not have to agree, by any means, but I would like to know that my point is acknowledged.

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Of course you do. Because you must put yourself in trust of yourself, who is a fallible human being apt to make mistakes. However, concerning God's word of truth, it is God and his power to insure that it is accurate, not only the first time, but in a continual process, and yes, even in a translation. God has this power and ability, and He has made it evident. I do not have to be a carpenter, in order to appreciate the chair that I sit upon made by the carpenter. I also know that the carpenter who made my chair and provided for me the chair is perfect in all ways. So I can sit in that chair and feel secure and sure that that chair will not fall apart as I sit down upon it. I do not need to learn carpentry, or obtain carpentry skills, in order to have the perfect chair, made by the perfect carpenter. I do not have to rely upon my own human faults, in order to determine which is the best chair. It is made evident to those that know the maker, his quality of work.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

If you are interpreting the phrase "word of God" as meaning the Scriptures, you are defining the word in a more narrow context than the Scriptures do. Yes, the Scriptures are a facet the word of God, but they are not the only facet. Note Romans 1:19-20:

Romans 1
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

and Acts 14:16-17:

Acts 14
16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

 

steaver said "Do you see the little dig? Maybe I shouldn't be claiming the name of Christ because I believe that God has preserved His word full as full can be with "inspiration" in the KJB."

No, that's not what I meant. You should be claiming the name of Christ. But you shoulding be claiming the doctrine of KJV-onlyism because it implies God's word did not exist until the 1600s. It implies God lied for 1600 years.

steaver said "So by your deffinition, the New Testiment cannot be the Word of God because it was written after the books of the OT?! And therefore the new would nullify the old as being the Word of God."

I have no idea how you reached that conclusion from what I said.

 

michelle said "I believe God, not man and man's opinions."

As do I. KJV-onlyism is man's opinion. It is extra-Biblical. It is false.

michelle said "I believe God's promises to the faithful and I believe and know that I am one of those faithful believers. I believe that God would not allow errors in the scriptures"

Yet you believe the KJV "corrected" (your word) everything prior to it.

 

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We all have room to grow, Michelle, we all start our journey to God at different points. Paul does not tell us to "attain" the prize in Philippians 3:14. He tells us to "press towards" it. My prayer is that we may all grow from these exchanges as we study God's Will for our lives revealed to us through the Scriptures. Test everything, hold on to that which is good.
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Amen!! To this I also agree. However you neglected to answer my specific question in Where is God in all this? I am not talking about the believer, as that is quite evident to each individual. Where is God in all the translation? This was my question. Did God just stop preserving his word of truth in the Hebrew and Greek? And if so, Then how is it that one explains God's word living in the English speaking churches? Do you honestly believe God had no part whatsoever in the translation process and the continued preservation of his word in that language? This is what I mean, by where is God in all of this?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle asked "Where is God in all this? I am not talking about the believer, as that is quite evident to each individual. Where is God in all the translation?"

He is where he has always been. He moved Ptolemy Philadelph King of Egypt (according to the KJV translators) to have the LXX produced, he moved the early councils to recognize which NT books are canonical, he moved Jerome to produce the Vulgate, he moved scribes over the centuries to copy and recopy and recopy manuscripts, he moved Erasmus to produce the TR, he moved the early English translators to produce their translations, etc. Nobody is falling for your question, nobody thinks God is not involved in preservation of his word.

 

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Where do I deny the authority of the Scriptures?
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In your belief that we do not, nor can have the inspired word of God in our language. Unless I misunderstood you, you have said that only the inspired word of God can be found only in the origional language manuscripts. If this is so, and we do not have the inspired word of God in our language, then we do not have the authority of God's word, but only the words of men. Then you quote to me, these words of men, as though they were authoritative, to which you, by your own belief in this issue, do not believe are authoritative, to try to show me that they aren't. Do you not see what you are doing? If I misunderstand this, I apologize, but this is what it seems as though you, and many others here believe. If you do believe we have the inspired words of God in our language, and not just the words of men, then please tell me why then are you now discussing this issue with me as though my belief is wrong?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Romans 1
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

and Acts 14:16-17:

Acts 14
16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
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And your point is here? Are you telling me, that God does not desire us to know his word of truth and study and obey it? These are scriptures speaking about the unbelieving person, who God has made it known to them, that He exists. You cannot learn of Jesus Christ and his salvation through watching the creation. You can only know that God exists and created it. It is by the word of God that we know what God's will is for us, and HIS salvation to us and full revelation of Himself to us. We cannot know this from only nature.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle