KJVO vs any other translation(s).

[Paul from Antioch]

Here are some books that I found to be helpful in this 1611 KJVO issue: "How we got the Bible," by Neil R. Lightfoot (2003; Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI 49516-6287); "God's Secretaries: The Making of the King James Bible," (2003, HarperCollins books, New York, NY 10022); "God's Secretaries: The Making of the King James Bible," 2003, By Adam Nicholson, HarperCollins books, New York, NY 10022), "The Bible in Translation: Ancient & English Versions," (2001, Baker Academic, Grand Rapids, MI 49516-62870. Additionally, a helpful survey to the life & times of ALL of England's Monarchs is "Kings & Queens of England: From the Saxon Kings to the House of Windsor," (By Nigel Cawthorne. (2009, Metro Books, Ney York NY 10016). There are other books available besides these, but IMHO, these will at least give the reader a good introduction to the 1611 KJVO controversy. Also, IMHO, the best work I've found on this controversy (Both pro & con) is "The Facts on the KJO Debate: How Reliable Are Today's Bible Versions?, by John Ankerberg & John Weldon (1996, the Ankerberg Theological Institute, Harvest House Publishers, Eugene OR 97402).

 

[JonC]

Also of interest would be Köstenberger's be Andreas J. Köstenberger's "Which Bible Translation Should I Use?"

 

[rlvaughn]

..."How we got the Bible," by Neil R. Lightfoot (2003; Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI 49516-6287)...

Thanks for the recommendation. Lightfoot is not one of the "usual suspects" whose names come up around here, so I looked him up. Neil Roland Lightfoot was a native Texan and church of Christ minister who taught at Abilene Christian University for 47 years. While rummaging around I found a review by one of his fellow church of Christ ministers who regularly reviews homeschooling and religious books.

Review of How We Got the Bible: Third Edition, Revised and Expanded, by Wayne S. Walker.

I also discovered the first edition of the book came out all the way back in 1963!

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Thanks for the recommendation. Lightfoot is not one of the "usual suspects" whose names come up around here, so I looked him up. Neil Roland Lightfoot was a native Texan and church of Christ minister who taught at Abilene Christian University for 47 years. While rummaging around I found a review by one of his fellow church of Christ ministers who regularly reviews homeschooling and religious books.

Review of How We Got the Bible: Third Edition, Revised and Expanded, by Wayne S. Walker.

I also discovered the first edition of the book came out all the way back in 1963!

Thanks for the recommendation. Lightfoot is not one of the "usual suspects" whose names come up around here, so I looked him up. Neil Roland Lightfoot was a native Texan and church of Christ minister who taught at Abilene Christian University for 47 years. While rummaging around I found a review by one of his fellow church of Christ ministers who regularly reviews homeschooling and religious books.

Review of How We Got the Bible: Third Edition, Revised and Expanded, by Wayne S. Walker.

I also discovered the first edition of the book came out all the way back in 1963!

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Another book on this subject is In The Beginning: The Story of the King James Bible & How It Changed a nation, a Language, and a Culture by Alister E. McGrath (2001 Doubleday (A division of Random House, Inc, New York, NY 10036). This 310 page book also includes "A Comparison of Historic Translations from the 1384 Wycliffe Bible to the the 1952 RSV, A Biblical Timeline from the 1456 Gutenberg Latin Bible to the 1675 KJB by Cambridge Univ. Press, plus a "List of Works Consulted" which is a rather exhaustive 10 page bibliography of works from the 1605 Bodleian Library's 1605 catalogue of scholarly works of not only the KJB in particular, but also many other works on the times in England up to the 20th Century. Also a more general work of our Bible is A Visual History of the English Bible: The Tumultuous Tale of the World's Bestselling Book by Donald L. Brake (2008 Baker Books, New York, NY 49516-6287). This 349 page book gives the reader a visualization of the interesting (and, for the most part, a rather unknown or forgotten) history of the Ancient Manuscripts from AD 1 up to 1972 (& following years) of the exhaustive work from the earliest collectors of the contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls dating from c. AD 1 up to our modern era. Included in this little book are other very helpful appendices that include such topics as "Why Modern Translations Needed ?" and a 7-Point Guide that true Translations OUGHT to follow. As name implies, this work is full of illustrations of such topics as "The Greek Text of the NT" that gives the reader a visual comparison of the Alexandrian & the Byzantine families of manuscripts upon which most of our English Bibles are based to a "western reading as translated in the Knox/Jerusalem Bible in more recent years. A person who wishes to have a very good background into the complicated (& controversial) background of our English Bibles will find this work to be n invaluable guide for his/her studies in this rather complex issue. Of course, each faction, pro & anti the 1611 KJVO issue, will undoubtedly have her/his "favorite" writer(s), but IMHO these works should provide anyone who wishes to have a better knowledge of God's Word as He gave to us English-speaking people will find these (& the other previously cited works) to be very helpful in his/her understanding of many of the issues that through the centuries have given to us today what God would have us to know not only about Himself, but also OURSELVES as well.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

OK. For me, I believe that no translation is without the potential for mistakes in the translation. With the KJV 46 translators worked on the translation and even there voiced concern that a committee of Bishops made changes. Talking to people on various translation committees there is always a compromise between translators about which words best represent in English the words being translated. We cannot remove the human process from translations - BUT we can keep in mind that these are translations and God's Word (what God has communicated) is preserved.

The primary concern of the Bishops in early 17th Century "Church" of England was that they wanted to retain as much power over the laity (common folk) as they deemed they should. This power-hungry grab over the common folk is as old as the organized Christianity in the First Century AD. In Revelation 2 "The Angel" (Jesus Christ Himself) commended the congregation at Ephesus for withstanding "the evil deeds of the Nicolaitiains" (Rev 2:6). The "Nicolaitians" is a term that simply means "Victory over the Laity" (a/k/a "the common folks"), as opposed to the "organized power structure of the Overseers (Bishops)" as we see in the R Catholic & Anglican ("Church" of England). The Puritan Reformer ranks produced the 1560's Geneva Bible, which had many marginal notes that portrayed both the English monarch(s) & the Bishops within the "Church" of England in a most undignified light. Hence, in the "Instructions to the Translators," such marginal notes that would appear were limited in the 1611 KJV translation to such marginal notes that only served to more fully describe the OT kings actions as they specifically pertained to the OT passages in the text itself in question.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

The primary concern of the Bishops in early 17th Century "Church" of England was that they wanted to retain as much power over the laity (common folk) as they deemed they should. This power-hungry grab over the common folk is as old as the organized Christianity in the First Century AD. In Revelation 2 "The Angel" (Jesus Christ Himself) commended the congregation at Ephesus for withstanding "the evil deeds of the Nicolaitiains" (Rev 2:6). The "Nicolaitians" is a term that simply means "Victory over the Laity" (a/k/a "the common folks"), as opposed to the "organized power structure of the Overseers (Bishops)" as we see in the R Catholic & Anglican ("Church" of England). The Puritan Reformer ranks produced the 1560's Geneva Bible, which had many marginal notes that portrayed both the English monarch(s) & the Bishops within the "Church" of England in a most undignified light. Hence, in the "Instructions to the Translators," such marginal notes that would appear were limited in the 1611 KJV translation to such marginal notes that only served to more fully describe the OT kings actions as they specifically pertained to the OT passages in the text itself in question.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

While I'm not a scholar on the 1611 KJVO controversy, here are some books that I've found useful in examining some of the background details that pertain to this issue; (1) Just about any book by D. A. Carlson on this controversy is a good guide to the 1611 KJVO issue. (2) Others that have been published since AD 2000 [Note: I've tried to list these books from the very general to the somewhat more specific.] Neil R. Lightfoot, "How We Got the Bible," 3rd Ed., Revised & Expanded," (2003. Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI 49516). Bruce M. Metzger, "The Bible in Translation: Ancient & English Versions," (2001 Baker Academic, Grand Rapids, MI 49516-6287). Alister E. McGrath, "In The Beginning: The Story of the King James Bible & How It Changed a Nation, a Language, & a Culture," (2001 Doubleday, New York, NY 10036). Melvin Bragg, "The Book of Books: The Radical Impact of the King James Bible, 1611-2011 (2011 Counterpoint, Berkeley, CA 94710). Adam Nicolson, "God's Secretaries: The Making of the King James Bible," (2003 HarperCollins, New York, NY 10022). Another work that surveys most all of the English Bibles from ancient times up to our modern era is Donald L. Brake, "A Visual History of the English Bible: The Tumultuous Tale of the World's Bestselling Book," (2008 Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI 49516-6287). Brake's book describes the little-known controversy of the "Established" English Protestant Church (a/k/a THE Church of England (or the Anglican Church) vs. the more reformed Puritans (Many of whom were responsible for publishing the 1557 - 1560 Geneva Bible. The principle issue that set these two factions at loggerheads was that the Bishops of the "Established Anglican Church" sought to retain as much power & influence as they could whereas the Puritans preferred a more localized congregational-style of ecclesiastical type government. Brake's contribution to the study of the English Bible in general is that he provides a rather scholarly background of most all of our English Bibles from the early 1st Century AD up to the 20th Century that includes maps & actual pictorial illustrations of these Bibles as well as an introduction as to why King James VI of Scotland (who later became King James 1 of England & thus the title of the KJB) was more receptive to a newer English-language translation than was generally not as readily available to the common English folks in the 16th & early 17th centuries. Another helpful guide to all of the English monarchs from ancient times up to the present is Nigel Cawthorne's "Kings & Queens of England: From the Saxon Kings to the House of Windsor (2009 Metro Books, New York, NY 10016) His 208 page book gives a good survey of the various rulers of England & how many of them fared with the other ruling dynasties of England, some of which contributed to the founding of the Church of England in the 1530s & successive years. In my reading of the 1611 KJVO controversy, the most enlightening survey, both pro & con, is a 48-page booklet by John Ankerberg & John Weldon entitled "The Facts on the King James Only Debate: How Reliable Are Today's Bible Versions?" (1996 Harvest House, Eugene OR 97402). This little booklet tackles 5 of the major factors in this controversy that started in the mid 1800s & carries on today. They are: (1) Biblical Inerrancy, (2) How translations are made, (3) A comparison of the King James Bible with more recent versions, (4) Ways pastors & churches can respond to this issue, and (5) Which Bible translation is best for you? IMHO, this little booklet has the sanest approach to this modern-day divisive issue that has set both people and churches at odds with each other I've ever read.

 

[Stratton7]

In my reading of the 1611 KJVO controversy, the most enlightening survey, both pro & con, is a 48-page booklet by John Ankerberg & John Weldon entitled "The Facts on the King James Only Debate: How Reliable Are Today's Bible Versions?"

I’ve found several newsletters but having trouble locating this. By chance, do you have a link you could share? Thanks.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I’ve found several newsletters but having trouble locating this. By chance, do you have a link you could share? Thanks.

By "this," do you mean all the works that I listed, or just Weldon's & Ankerberg's booklet. The works i've listed MAY be out of print due to their dates being rather old, and, since it was the 400th anniversary of the 1611 King James Bible, many folks may have purchased them. (If that's what you're referring to, I guess the best place would be some used book distributors, etc.). OTOH hand, Weldon's & Ankerberg's booklet is probably out of print & may not be available at all. If this is the case, if there's a way to PM me, I do have some extra copies of the booklet available for the cost (About $2 each) + shipping & handling costs. If you do want one of these booklet(s), a PM would most likely be the avenue I'd personally recommend since I contacted by phone Ankerberg's program & that's what they told me.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

By "this," do you mean all the works that I listed, or just Weldon's & Ankerberg's booklet. The works i've listed MAY be out of print due to their dates being rather old, and, since it was the 400th anniversary of the 1611 King James Bible, many folks may have purchased them. (If that's what you're referring to, I guess the best place

By "this," do you mean all the works that I listed, or just Weldon's & Ankerberg's booklet. The works i've listed MAY be out of print due to their dates being rather old, and, since it was the 400th anniversary of the 1611 King James Bible, many folks may have purchased them. (If that's what you're referring to, I guess the best place would be the avenue I'd personally recommend since I contacted by phone Ankerberg's program & that's what they told me.

 

[rlvaughn]

I’ve found several newsletters but having trouble locating this. By chance, do you have a link you could share? Thanks.

OTOH hand, Weldon's & Ankerberg's booklet is probably out of print & may not be available at all. If this is the case, if there's a way to PM me, I do have some extra copies of the booklet available for the cost (About $2 each) + shipping & handling costs. If you do want one of these booklet(s), a PM would most likely be the avenue I'd personally recommend since I contacted by phone Ankerberg's program & that's what they told me.

The still show the book on the John Ankerberg Show website, either book or PDF download, HERE.

 

[Stratton7]

Thanks Paul and Mr. V.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

The still show the book on the John Ankerberg Show website, either book or PDF download, HERE.

I was told by a secretary of John Ankerberg's radio show on the phone that his book was no longer available, maybe she was only referring to the radio program. Anyway id you can get it via another source, that's fine w/ me. OTOH, my offer still holds. I'm just guessing, but the USPS fees shouldn't be too much, & I can probably scrounge enough wrapping material to mail it to you. PM me if you're interested.

 

[Stratton7]

I was told by a secretary of John Ankerberg's radio show on the phone that his book was no longer available, maybe she was only referring to the radio program. Anyway id you can get it via another source, that's fine w/ me. OTOH, my offer still holds. I'm just guessing, but the USPS fees shouldn't be too much, & I can probably scrounge enough wrapping material to mail it to you. PM me if you're interested.

I appreciate the offer sincerely, but have found out more information about what’s inside of it that I just wouldn’t agree with.
E.g. James White and D Carson would be happy with this.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I appreciate the offer sincerely, but have found out more information about what’s inside of it that I just wouldn’t agree with.
E.g. James White and D Carson would be happy with this.

Each person is entitled to his/her own opinion(s) on this issue. IMHO, I personally don't see any way this decisive issue can be resolved to everyone's liking. As I've previously posted, if the 1611 KJV floats your boat, fine with me. OTOH, if some other more modern versions of the Word of God speak to your heart & soul, so be it. True Christ-believers have differed on this issue for some two or more centuries. The principle of agreeing to disagree (as opposed to each side hurling charges of heresy at each other!) IMHO is a tool that Satan not only will, but also HAS used. What ought to be a unified opposition front to him, our enemy appears to me to be the real victor here. Maybe this was one reason why Jesus Christ Himself prayed for unity among His children in John 17.

 

[Yeshua1]

Another book on this subject is In The Beginning: The Story of the King James Bible & How It Changed a nation, a Language, and a Culture by Alister E. McGrath (2001 Doubleday (A division of Random House, Inc, New York, NY 10036). This 310 page book also includes "A Comparison of Historic Translations from the 1384 Wycliffe Bible to the the 1952 RSV, A Biblical Timeline from the 1456 Gutenberg Latin Bible to the 1675 KJB by Cambridge Univ. Press, plus a "List of Works Consulted" which is a rather exhaustive 10 page bibliography of works from the 1605 Bodleian Library's 1605 catalogue of scholarly works of not only the KJB in particular, but also many other works on the times in England up to the 20th Century. Also a more general work of our Bible is A Visual History of the English Bible: The Tumultuous Tale of the World's Bestselling Book by Donald L. Brake (2008 Baker Books, New York, NY 49516-6287). This 349 page book gives the reader a visualization of the interesting (and, for the most part, a rather unknown or forgotten) history of the Ancient Manuscripts from AD 1 up to 1972 (& following years) of the exhaustive work from the earliest collectors of the contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls dating from c. AD 1 up to our modern era. Included in this little book are other very helpful appendices that include such topics as "Why Modern Translations Needed ?" and a 7-Point Guide that true Translations OUGHT to follow. As name implies, this work is full of illustrations of such topics as "The Greek Text of the NT" that gives the reader a visual comparison of the Alexandrian & the Byzantine families of manuscripts upon which most of our English Bibles are based to a "western reading as translated in the Knox/Jerusalem Bible in more recent years. A person who wishes to have a very good background into the complicated (& controversial) background of our English Bibles will find this work to be n invaluable guide for his/her studies in this rather complex issue. Of course, each faction, pro & anti the 1611 KJVO issue, will undoubtedly have her/his "favorite" writer(s), but IMHO these works should provide anyone who wishes to have a better knowledge of God's Word as He gave to us English-speaking people will find these (& the other previously cited works) to be very helpful in his/her understanding of many of the issues that through the centuries have given to us today what God would have us to know not only about Himself, but also OURSELVES as well.

This is the BEST intro to the entire issue of the Kjvo and other texts yet read!
www.truth.sg/resources/KJV Onlyism - a New Sect - Introduction - Dr J Price.pdf

 

[Paul from Antioch]

This is the BEST intro to the entire issue of the Kjvo and other texts yet read!
www.truth.sg/resources/KJV Onlyism - a New Sect - Introduction - Dr J Price.pdf

This is just my personal opinion, but I don't see that the KJVO is necessarily a NEW "Sect." The KJVO vs. "Modern Translations" controversy has been going on for at least one or two centuries already. Unless some new "facts" have been discovered, I can't see this controversy as necessarily "a new sect." Can you give me more details on why the source you mentioned in your post to assert that "This is a new sect"? I'd certainly appreciate reading what they may have discovered to assert that this centuries-old controversy is now "a new sect."

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This is just my personal opinion, but I don't see that the KJVO is necessarily a NEW "Sect." The KJVO vs. "Modern Translations" controversy has been going on for at least one or two centuries already. Unless some new "facts" have been discovered, I can't see this controversy as necessarily "a new sect." Can you give me more details on why the source you mentioned in your post to assert that "This is a new sect"? I'd certainly appreciate reading what they may have discovered to assert that this centuries-old controversy is now "a new sect."

In its current guise it's not one or two centuries old. At the most, it's a little over a century old. Dating from the publication of the ESV in the late 19th century. Even then the vehemence of the KJVO side only came about in the 1980-90s.

 

[Yeshua1]

In its current guise it's not one or two centuries old. At the most, it's a little over a century old. Dating from the publication of the ESV in the late 19th century. Even then the vehemence of the KJVO side only came about in the 1980-90s.

Yes, started when the 1881 and then the 1901 published, and really started rolling when 1952 Rsv hit!